AR-15s for Police Work?

PJ24 said:
I'm not a cop, and I don't have experience of patrolling the streets and arresting guys in the manner a cop does. LE isn't my lane, I admit that freely. I do have experience training and training with various LE tactical teams so I'm not just talking out of my fourth point and I'm not painting all LEOs in the same corner, at all. Besides, I'd paint you a unique color anyway, like pink.:-D
Why Pink? I much prefer a nice shade of lavander. I realize that your not talking outta your 4th POC, hell I'm picking up alot of what your laying down.....really I am........
Self preservation? It's not Afghanistan, there aren't snipers around every corner attempting to pop your top. Cops wearing badges doesn't put them at risk. There is a reason cop cars have lights, reflective decals .. presence. If every swinging dick on a PD wants subdued this or that, what purpose does that serve? Part of LE is a visual presence.
No crap it ain't A'stan,quite aware of that and not comparing the two, or Iraq, or any other military operation. But if you don't have a level of SA and a little bit of self preservation you ain't gonna last. Even a a patrol officer has to do low lite searches, when I was in Class A uniform (the one with all the shiney crap) I'd strip my brass and throw on a raid jacket.

Again quite aware of Presence, Verbal commands etc.........

d let me be clear since I wasn't before, I'm referring to standard uniformed officers not having a valid reason for camo or subdued anything. SWAT teams want to wear cloth name tapes/badges? That makes sense, I'm sure the metal doesn't feel too good under the tac vests anyway, but I still see no reason for some of these camo patterns (save for marksmen and I will add in its usefulness on certain types of calls, mostly rural), scare me patches and badges, etc.

Agree with that. I also see no need for Ninja Black Outfits....thats just me. Our bolt Gunners have Woodland if and when the need arises....but OD Nomex flight suits are standard for everyone. Even in a rural enviroment (I work in a suburban/urban/ rural enviroment) Camo is over rated, our guys assigned to ERAD however wear Mossy Oak hunting pants and shirts with subdued patches and badges and back patches.....cause the Lou thinks it's cool.......big Deer Hunter.

I've seen average patrol cops sporting BDUs, bloused boots, subdued patches and boonie caps (a certain Sheriffs Department in NC). And no, he wasn't on a tac team, you tell me the reason for that? That's what I'm talking about in going overboard.

See this is where I agree with you. Alotta S.O.'s get into the whole Tactical Ted cool guy gear BS. Because they think it makes them look cool or high speed or whatever. Sheriffs are elected and they play politics as in ..."I've created an E-Light fightin unit. On the flip side my Boss (173rd Airborne RVN 66-67) holds BDU's solid or camo in utter contempt and allows them only for training/range/ or mowing your yard. His reasoning is that we have no need to look like the military and the appearnce is overly aggressive and off putting to the public....I agree. He does however authorize 5.11 uniforms with embroidered badges and name tapes , (Tan shirt-Brown or Coyote trousers, or black shirt with tan pants or coyote pants used to use brown pants but 5.11 discontinued the color so we use coyote- depending on assignment) when the wear of a class a uniform is not required or would not be suitable for the duty. Hence Detectives, SEB, Jail Deputies, etc have an option of wearing the 5.11 class B. Patrol, Warrants and others who are required to wear the Class A can wear their B's in inclimant weather, special details as authorized.

Also, on the camo. From my experiences, solid uniforms are more oft than not more effective than patterns, esp. in urban environments.

Again agree , but I only make rules for my guys.


Again, apples and steaks. We can start another thread on lack of range time for conventional military combat units, I have something to say about that too. :drill:

But it has NOTHING to do with this conversation. LE and Military are not one in the same and an infantryman doesn't have near the responsibility when he fires his rifle on the two way range as a cop does. Why? Because there is A LOT more liability when the cop draws his firearm.

No crap?????? You threw out lack of training and I threw it back. You don't like it sorry. It only belies your low opinion of LE, and despite the respect I have for you I do have the same right to my opinion as you. Now if wanna lecture me on LE deadly force Start with Garner vs Tennessee and throw in some Cantonm case law.:wink:
I didn't say ALL cops don't qualify regularly, I know some that are out once a week for training and qualify often like you, and like YOU, they are not your average flat foot. Let's face it, MOST do not get NEAR enough range time and this discussion started over giving those guys NOT assigned to tactical teams the rifles. If anything LEOs need to spend more time on a range than any infantryman.

No they don't get enough trigger time and it's a financial/budgetary thing that they/we have no control over. Hell my 5.56, .45 ACP and 9mm range ammo is back ordered as we speak...due to military contracts the only thing that ain't is the 7.62 Lake City Match ammo & .40 S&W, sucks , but it is what it is.

Look I'm not advocating Crew Serves in patrol cars, or even SAW's there is no need for that, hell give em 30-30 levers but give them the ability to have a stand back weapon. It's not really the weapon it's the deployment and use policy that is put in place.


There is a very VALID reason they do NOT have that option.
Yeah I know it's called Posse Comitatius and Habeus Corpus...you avoided the question.
I like that, it is one of the reasons that make this country so great to me. So why would I want cops acting like the military?
I dont see it but maybe I haven't been exposed to it in 14 years.
Cops need to understand that the US isn't their warzone.
Sometimes it can be damned close...believe it or not.
They aren't out there to 'close with and destroy the enemy,' they aren't Soldiers patrolling the streets, and the US isn't their deployed combat AO. They are uniformed professionals charged with protecting the public by enforcing the laws set in place. I'm not saying it's not dangerous work, it certainly can be just as dangerous as any military operation. But LE and Military are two completely different worlds and allowing them to mix and blend is VERY dangerous to our society.

And sometimes they need special assets, immeditely and denying them those tools places every one in danger.

Sorry outside the Fed level I don't see any "melding"



I never said anything about not training them, if anything I advocate MORE training before putting these guys on the streets, esp. with some of the weapons they're now being issued.

And most of "them"would advocate the same thing.
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I can not judge situation in America, but there certainly is not need for policemen to carry an AR in Europe. Of course, they may have one in a trunk of police car, but that's all.

The period when traffic cops had shortened AKs for routine car checks is over even in Russia...
 
I grew up in a rural county in the midwestern U.S. I think there are only about 35,000 people living in the entire county, but every county deputy has a 12-gauge and an AR-15 in the car. As many others have noted, meth is a big problem, and most of the cooks and dealers have access to firearms. Here in the midwest, there isn't a worry of the police becoming a paramilitary organization if they up their armament...I think the police should have the tools necessary.
 
RMNP_CCC said:
Maybe if you live in Arizona or a similarly-partitioned state. There are no towns over 4,000 around here, but I can see how this would seem like a pretty crowded place.

As an aside, police armed with AR-15s engaged a suspect armed with a handgun not too far from where I live.

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/03/18/1823036/armed-man-fatally-shot-in-confrontation.html
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Where I'm at there is only one incorporated town, and the population there is 2,800 or so. There's a few smaller unincorporated towns, at best maybe a few hundred each. IIRC the county has around 8-9,000 total. I'll have to double check on that, though.
 
03, what amazes me is how LEOs usually fail to see the misconduct of their fellow officers and downplay the people that do see it and report it. Does this mean that it doesn;'t happen, or does this mean that perhaps LEOs are a calloused enough to either not see it, not willing to accept seeing it or they just plain don't care? If the latter then perhaps you are right when you said-
03USMC said:
pj24 said:
Cops need to understand that the US isn't their warzone.
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Sometimes it can be damned close...believe it or not.
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and in some instances I have seen as a victim and as a firefighter/EMT there are some LEOs out there that literally consider the regular citizen "the enemy". Is that the kind of person we want on the street with a badge and a gun? When they can visualize that they are in a war, and it's them (the cops) versus us (the citizens)?




 
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I would point out that in other countries, uniformed police officers do patrol with heavier armament than simple handguns and shotguns.
There is no "Posse Commitatus" Act.

In France, the Gendarmerie, which (although is technically part of the military) is equivilant of the US State Troops/FBI does patrol with FAMAS assault rifles as well as a submachinegun whose name escapes me.

In the UK, British Police patrol soft target areas with MP5s in counter terrorism operations.

In both countriles, the Army does do regular patrols in at-risk areas.
 
Hmmm said:
03, what amazes me is how LEOs usually fail to see the misconduct of their fellow officers and downplay the people that do see it and report it. Does this mean that it doesn;'t happen, or does this mean that perhaps LEOs are a calloused enough to either not see it, not willing to accept seeing it or they just plain don't care? If the latter then perhaps you are right when you said-

and in some instances I have seen as a victim and as a firefighter/EMT there are some LEOs out there that literally consider the regular citizen "the enemy". Is that the kind of person we want on the street with a badge and a gun? When they can visualize that they are in a war, and it's them (the cops) versus us (the citizens)?

Having worked IA I'm not an unbiased source. Yes I was a Rat Bastard at one time and it was the lonliest time I spent in LE. It depends on the officer and the situation and a multitude of factors , it's not a simple answer and unless I actually have factual knowledge I'm not qualified to address a certain incident.
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I am a corrections official trained on the Mini-14. I think that police should carry long arms only in areas considered especially dangerous. I have concerns about the militarization of the police and the bad attitudes towards civilians that such militarization might engender over time. Police assigned to the South Bronx should have rifles and shotguns. Police assigned to quiet surburban towns should not be heavilly armed.
 
Mini 14 huh? Best Shotgun Ruger ever made. Actually the scenerios you put forth Urban patrol cops armed with Patrol Rifles of a high penetration caliber and suburban (who have greater need of a distance weapon) are contrary to what most LE trainers advocate.
 
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