A Can of Man
Je suis aware
It takes one drop of piss to spoil a glass of milk.
AR-15s for Police Work?
03USMC
Active member
Thats all good and fine dude, but fer christ sake we all ain't the same and don't deserve a broad brush. I ain't askin you to respect all of em ..just to acknowldege that some might have a clue....hell I acknowledge that the USAF does have some useful parts......
PJ24
Active member
Thats all good and fine dude, but fer christ sake we all ain't the same and don't deserve a broad brush. I ain't askin you to respect all of em ..just to acknowldege that some might have a clue....hell I acknowledge that the USAF does have some useful parts......
My brother, if I made it seem like I feel ALL of you are laughable wannabes, I do apologize. I have some very close friends in LE and I thought I made it clear that it's not ALL, that there ARE some good dudes. One of my best friends is a LAPD SWAT guy, another friend of mine is on NYPD ESU and is quickly realizing his mistake.
And stay away from my useful parts. :rambo:
Bror Jace
Active member
"Depends on where you work. I work in meth heaven, I run into AKs SKSs, ARs etc ... every other day. They might not be firing at me but what happens when they do? Do I rely on my side arm and shotgun"
Exactly. Depends on where you are and what you run into. Most of NY is rural but meth labs are pretty rare around here. I wasn't at the budget hearing where the request for new rifles was made but if the NY State Police feel they are running into serious hardware, they need to document it and make a better case ... not rely on one local incident where no one was hurt (have to review that one incident again, but I believe that's the case).
"You have to understand the scope. The majority of cops are not gun guys."
Yes, another concern of mine ... I might not have made this clear. For the guys with the need and are willing to have the special training and refresher courses, etc ... I don't have an issue. But to have a blanket policy to put an AR-15 or similar rifle in every car? I'm far from sold on that ... and cost is only about 25% of my concern.
"You would crap if you saw my trunk. M4, 870, Irwin, and an LL 870 next to bolt gun case."
My eyes might bug out a little at first ... but reviewing a couple month's of your after-incident reports would probably justify the hardware. If you're serious, then I'm OK with the serious hardware. For the guys who meet the minimum quals and don't have a need, I'm not sold.
And I didn't even mention the bad cops ... they are out there, too. I knew one nutter that served in the Town of Colonie (outside Albany). To this day, I can't understand how this dude ever earned a badge. He made Tackleberry from the Police Academy movies appear calm and well-adjusted. I heard he left the force a couple years later ... don't know the circumstances. Not much we can do about those idiots 'cept deal with them on a case-by-case basis.
Yeah, I know shooting-the-gun-out-of-a-guy's-hand is almost always Hollywood BS nonsense. In this case, I saw the video. The suspect was sitting on a park bench and he let his gun hand (holding a revolver ... probably .38) hang down between his legs. No other civies were in sight. Looked like a pretty easy shot assuming the sharpshooter was inside 100 yards. Pretty rare circumstances and I bet he called it in before he took the shot.
Exactly. Depends on where you are and what you run into. Most of NY is rural but meth labs are pretty rare around here. I wasn't at the budget hearing where the request for new rifles was made but if the NY State Police feel they are running into serious hardware, they need to document it and make a better case ... not rely on one local incident where no one was hurt (have to review that one incident again, but I believe that's the case).
"You have to understand the scope. The majority of cops are not gun guys."
Yes, another concern of mine ... I might not have made this clear. For the guys with the need and are willing to have the special training and refresher courses, etc ... I don't have an issue. But to have a blanket policy to put an AR-15 or similar rifle in every car? I'm far from sold on that ... and cost is only about 25% of my concern.
"You would crap if you saw my trunk. M4, 870, Irwin, and an LL 870 next to bolt gun case."
My eyes might bug out a little at first ... but reviewing a couple month's of your after-incident reports would probably justify the hardware. If you're serious, then I'm OK with the serious hardware. For the guys who meet the minimum quals and don't have a need, I'm not sold.
And I didn't even mention the bad cops ... they are out there, too. I knew one nutter that served in the Town of Colonie (outside Albany). To this day, I can't understand how this dude ever earned a badge. He made Tackleberry from the Police Academy movies appear calm and well-adjusted. I heard he left the force a couple years later ... don't know the circumstances. Not much we can do about those idiots 'cept deal with them on a case-by-case basis.
Yeah, I know shooting-the-gun-out-of-a-guy's-hand is almost always Hollywood BS nonsense. In this case, I saw the video. The suspect was sitting on a park bench and he let his gun hand (holding a revolver ... probably .38) hang down between his legs. No other civies were in sight. Looked like a pretty easy shot assuming the sharpshooter was inside 100 yards. Pretty rare circumstances and I bet he called it in before he took the shot.
mmarsh
Active member
A question for USMC03
When you say the the police require a assault rifle. Do you mean a military version of the assault rifle (with the full-auto option) or so you mean the civilian versions (the semi-auto). I can understand the need for a long-gun that isn't a shotgun, but in your opinion is the full-auto a necessary requirement?
The thing I worry about the full auto AR, is the increased risk to bystanders from strays and richocets especially in urban enviroments.
When you say the the police require a assault rifle. Do you mean a military version of the assault rifle (with the full-auto option) or so you mean the civilian versions (the semi-auto). I can understand the need for a long-gun that isn't a shotgun, but in your opinion is the full-auto a necessary requirement?
The thing I worry about the full auto AR, is the increased risk to bystanders from strays and richocets especially in urban enviroments.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Mmarsh, almost every case of shooting in combat with rifles is done in semi-automatic so I don't think they'll need one.
If it gets to a point where automatic fire is required, I think it's time to call in the SWAT team anyway.
If it gets to a point where automatic fire is required, I think it's time to call in the SWAT team anyway.
03USMC
Active member
I can think of a very, very few ......almost no reason that a Civilian LEO would need fully automatic capability with a rifle. The purpose of a patrol rifle is to give LEO's a stand off capability and a harder hitting cartridge for certain situations, not give them automatic fire capability. Semi-auto single shot, aimmed fire will always be more accurate than spray and pray full auto. IMHO Civilian LE does not need full auto capability.
The AR is a good platform because it is realitively inexpensive to modify for the needs of the department, as far as sights, stocks and other attachments.
As far as urban and even suburban areas, sometimes , depending on the jurisdiction a Patrol carbine in .40, .45 or 9mm maybe enough, but you are still giving up the penetration and standoff ability that the 5.56 gives.
KJ
Active member
In my long country the national response team (NI) train on a regular basis with Rangers and SF.
They know not to put on "scare me badges" and/or our uniform.
There are also "Piket styrkor" (in every larger city) that train in forced entry scenarios and so on and forth in urban terrain.
They do not train with SF teams but does all their training in urban enviroments including some crosstraining in urban situations with regular infantry Urban Warfare troops.(recruits from these teams mostly too).
My point is this.
IF you are going to perform missions IN your own country that requier heavy weapons you would want men who are ATLEST up to your best military standars with their heavy weapons.
And THAT my friends takes time and commitment at the policemen level.
There ARE coppers out there with that commitment but they are few and far between.
For all other coppers here, not only no, but hell no should they be allowed to have anything larger then the Sigs or Glocks.
//KJ.
They know not to put on "scare me badges" and/or our uniform.
There are also "Piket styrkor" (in every larger city) that train in forced entry scenarios and so on and forth in urban terrain.
They do not train with SF teams but does all their training in urban enviroments including some crosstraining in urban situations with regular infantry Urban Warfare troops.(recruits from these teams mostly too).
My point is this.
IF you are going to perform missions IN your own country that requier heavy weapons you would want men who are ATLEST up to your best military standars with their heavy weapons.
And THAT my friends takes time and commitment at the policemen level.
There ARE coppers out there with that commitment but they are few and far between.
For all other coppers here, not only no, but hell no should they be allowed to have anything larger then the Sigs or Glocks.
//KJ.
03USMC
Active member
Again brother, operative is time and commitment and training. That I agree with. Don't hand off an AR and say here ya go. Train train and train some more. In my country we don't have the option (although it does sound good) of calling in Military SOF for civil problems it has to be civil coppers.
03USMC
Active member
Embedded
03USMC
Active member
Question:
Is this the incident where the trooper was taken under fire and the backup units were pulled back nearly 400 yards away? And then was ended by Muni Cops with a Patrol Rifle after the three local cops flanked and obtained a backstop?
If so then the ending of the situation should answer your question.
Is this the incident where the trooper was taken under fire and the backup units were pulled back nearly 400 yards away? And then was ended by Muni Cops with a Patrol Rifle after the three local cops flanked and obtained a backstop?
If so then the ending of the situation should answer your question.
03, when I read this, you came to mind-
http://kevinthomason.blogspot.com/2010/02/local-cop-advocates-shooting-law.html
No, I don't think, nor did I ever, that you would do this. But you came to mind as the person that might be able to explain it.
You will never understand what it's like as a civilian, 03. When you see this crap as a citizen, yes it does put a nasty image on LEOs. Most of us are not trained as cops. So when we see this, you bet it makes us uneasy. And giving more cops more guns when a few already make it clear they wouldn't mind killing people......even if they are innocent? I dunno man.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
Okay.... let me voice my opinion here.
First on the uniforms. BDU are comfortable. Wearing a navy blue/black poly/coton shirt with kevlar under it isn't comfortable. I wear that everyday in Miami, Fl. Trust me.... if it wasn't for Cool-Cop I'd be dieing of heat stroke in my patrol car.
As with our SWAT Teams wearing it.... They're a specialized unit. Same as Green Berets are a specialized unit.
Many PDs are going to a more tactical style uniform. It's a nature of the beast. Uniform styles change. Our military isn't wearing frock coats in sky blue anymore either. Why should we have to be held to that idea. Uniforms change with society.
Second Topic is Firearms.
Firearms are tools. Nothing more nothing less. Different tools for different jobs. The AR-15 is a semi-automatic carbine that fires the .223/5.56x45mm round. It has less ballistic effect then the most common deer rifle in North America. The .30-30 Winchester which is chambered in the most common deer rifle in North America; the Lever Action Carbine. The main reason why police are switching to carbines is because they're far better tools then the standard pump action shotgun. Less user error, less recoil, more capacity, better accuracy.
If you're responding to a active shooter situation in a school and you're going to confront a armed gunman (possibly gunmen). Would you want me to use a pistol which is inherently less accurate then a rifle or carbine? Because the risks are great if it's a crowded area with innocent people.
Law Enforcement has always used rifles and carbines for work. Back in the day during the 1920s/1930s the common long gun was the following.
1903 Springfield (.30-06)
Thompson SMG (.45 ACP)
Remington Model 8 (.35 Remington Special)
Remington Model 8 with "Police Special" 15rd Magazine.
They made a model that even had a pistol grip stock and a forward vertical forgrip.
During the era of the wildwest, lawmen carried Winchester 1873 lever action carbines, Winchester 1786 Rifles, Springfield Armory 1873 Trapdoors, etc....
Once again.... different tools for different jobs.
Read up on the history and evolution of firearms and police usage of them. They both go hand in hand.
Also if the criminal arms themselves then so should the law abiding citizen. I personally see no reason why we should restrict Joe Citizen from a AR-15. It's a fine rifle for sport, hunting, and self defense.
First on the uniforms. BDU are comfortable. Wearing a navy blue/black poly/coton shirt with kevlar under it isn't comfortable. I wear that everyday in Miami, Fl. Trust me.... if it wasn't for Cool-Cop I'd be dieing of heat stroke in my patrol car.
As with our SWAT Teams wearing it.... They're a specialized unit. Same as Green Berets are a specialized unit.
Many PDs are going to a more tactical style uniform. It's a nature of the beast. Uniform styles change. Our military isn't wearing frock coats in sky blue anymore either. Why should we have to be held to that idea. Uniforms change with society.
Second Topic is Firearms.
Firearms are tools. Nothing more nothing less. Different tools for different jobs. The AR-15 is a semi-automatic carbine that fires the .223/5.56x45mm round. It has less ballistic effect then the most common deer rifle in North America. The .30-30 Winchester which is chambered in the most common deer rifle in North America; the Lever Action Carbine. The main reason why police are switching to carbines is because they're far better tools then the standard pump action shotgun. Less user error, less recoil, more capacity, better accuracy.
If you're responding to a active shooter situation in a school and you're going to confront a armed gunman (possibly gunmen). Would you want me to use a pistol which is inherently less accurate then a rifle or carbine? Because the risks are great if it's a crowded area with innocent people.
Law Enforcement has always used rifles and carbines for work. Back in the day during the 1920s/1930s the common long gun was the following.
1903 Springfield (.30-06)
Thompson SMG (.45 ACP)
Remington Model 8 (.35 Remington Special)
Remington Model 8 with "Police Special" 15rd Magazine.
They made a model that even had a pistol grip stock and a forward vertical forgrip.
During the era of the wildwest, lawmen carried Winchester 1873 lever action carbines, Winchester 1786 Rifles, Springfield Armory 1873 Trapdoors, etc....
Once again.... different tools for different jobs.
Read up on the history and evolution of firearms and police usage of them. They both go hand in hand.
Also if the criminal arms themselves then so should the law abiding citizen. I personally see no reason why we should restrict Joe Citizen from a AR-15. It's a fine rifle for sport, hunting, and self defense.
PJ24
Active member
Not even comparable. I won't get into the reasons why, you should already know.
As for the uniforms, SOF deploys to a hostile country and operates in Indian country for days/months. LE tactical teams are called to urban or rural environments for hours, there is no extended period of time they're surviving in the bush. There's no advantage to them sporting Crye over wearing some 5.11 tactical trousers and shirt. It's almost ALWAYS the smaller to medium sized departments trying to play dressup. The only member of any tactical team needing limited camo is the marksman.
Once again you are comparing apples and steaks. The PD is NOT the military and doesn't need to copy it or change to it. Getting away from the old style polyester uniforms is a great idea. There are plenty of tactical uniform options that do not involve camo patterns, high speed velcro patches or bloused boots. Badges, name tags, identifying marks, these are what I want to see on a uniformed officer.
I'm all about practicality, but it's gone beyond practical and gotten into "I want to be cool too!" It's laughable what some of these guys wear.
Right tool for the job is great. When most cops start qualifying more than once or twice a year, maybe I'll support that. Until then, just another liability.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
PJ, I could not agree more.
5.56, uniforms may change with society but in this case, it is catering to this fantasy among everyone with a swinging d1ck that he is either on some SWAT team or he is a Special Forces guy. In that sense, it is unprofessional.
Ditto with firearms. The tool is only as good as the training, skill and professionalism of the guy using it.
5.56, uniforms may change with society but in this case, it is catering to this fantasy among everyone with a swinging d1ck that he is either on some SWAT team or he is a Special Forces guy. In that sense, it is unprofessional.
Ditto with firearms. The tool is only as good as the training, skill and professionalism of the guy using it.
03USMC
Active member
I'll adress the bold since I agree with most of that and since you don't have Prac ap with LE.
Badges, Collar Brass, and name tags are reflective. They can give bad guys an aim point thats pretty deadly. Subdued and/or embroidered or better in this respect.I hate sh*t that shines, call it self preservation.
I qual quarterly because of my billet, thats only a qual, not a run...granted its because of my assignment but what TF..lotta military units qual annually. But I run bi-weekly.
Catch this. The LE in the US does not have the option to call in the Military, so why the hell are you against having them trained?
PJ24
Active member
I'm not a cop, and I don't have experience of patrolling the streets and arresting guys in the manner a cop does. LE isn't my lane, I admit that freely. I do have experience training and training with various LE tactical teams so I'm not just talking out of my fourth point and I'm not painting all LEOs in the same corner, at all. Besides, I'd paint you a unique color anyway, like pink.:-D
Self preservation? It's not Afghanistan, there aren't snipers around every corner attempting to pop your top. Cops wearing badges doesn't put them at risk. There is a reason cop cars have lights, reflective decals .. presence. If every swinging dick on a PD wants subdued this or that, what purpose does that serve? Part of LE is a visual presence.
And let me be clear since I wasn't before, I'm referring to standard uniformed officers not having a valid reason for camo or subdued anything. SWAT teams want to wear cloth name tapes/badges? That makes sense, I'm sure the metal doesn't feel too good under the tac vests anyway, but I still see no reason for some of these camo patterns (save for marksmen and I will add in its usefulness on certain types of calls, mostly rural), scare me patches and badges, etc.
I've seen average patrol cops sporting BDUs, bloused boots, subdued patches and boonie caps (a certain Sheriffs Department in NC). And no, he wasn't on a tac team, you tell me the reason for that? That's what I'm talking about in going overboard.
Also, on the camo. From my experiences, solid uniforms are more oft than not more effective than patterns, esp. in urban environments.
Again, apples and steaks. We can start another thread on lack of range time for conventional military combat units, I have something to say about that too. :drill:
But it has NOTHING to do with this conversation. LE and Military are not one in the same and an infantryman doesn't have near the responsibility when he fires his rifle on the two way range as a cop does. Why? Because there is A LOT more liability when the cop draws his firearm.
I didn't say ALL cops don't qualify regularly, I know some that are out once a week for training and qualify often like you, and like YOU, they are not your average flat foot. Let's face it, MOST do not get NEAR enough range time and this discussion started over giving those guys NOT assigned to tactical teams the rifles. If anything LEOs need to spend more time on a range than any infantryman.
There is a very VALID reason they do NOT have that option. I like that, it is one of the reasons that make this country so great to me. So why would I want cops acting like the military? Cops need to understand that the US isn't their warzone. They aren't out there to 'close with and destroy the enemy,' they aren't Soldiers patrolling the streets, and the US isn't their deployed combat AO. They are uniformed professionals charged with protecting the public by enforcing the laws set in place. I'm not saying it's not dangerous work, it certainly can be just as dangerous as any military operation. But LE and Military are two completely different worlds and allowing them to mix and blend is VERY dangerous to our society.
I never said anything about not training them, if anything I advocate MORE training before putting these guys on the streets, esp. with some of the weapons they're now being issued.
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