Wood.....Bullets.....???

[EuroSpike]

War is already totally lost at that time when bullets have to be maken of wood.

There was no war when the Fins did that

Yes, but those wooden bullet cartridges are exercise ammunition, not real live rounds for combat use and are painted blue to avoid them getting messed with real rounds. They are just Platzpatrone, you know. I have personally shot hundreds of them during my military training.

If those wooden bullets are shot without crusher attached the muzzle, bullet flies only a couple of meters and breaks into small pieces. They don't give enough gas power to load rifle properly without crusher wich one purpose is to increase blowback.

 

[EOD]

War is already totally lost at that time when bullets have to be maken of wood.

There was no war when the Fins did that

Yes, but those wooden bullet cartridges are exercise ammunition, not real live rounds for combat use and are painted blue to avoid them getting messed with real rounds. They are just Platzpatrone, you know. I have personally shot hundreds of them during my military training.

If those wooden bullets are shot without crusher attached the muzzle, bullet flies only a couple of meters and breaks into small pieces. They don't give enough gas power to load rifle properly without crusher wich one purpose is to increase blowback.

Sir I'm still not talking about wooden blanks but about short range projectiles for short range practice which look way different - I assume you have never seen one of those. I mean a total different thing and it is not what you have in mind.

 

[EuroSpike]

"Sir I'm still not talking about wooden blanks but about short range projectiles for short range practice which look way different - I assume you have never seen one of those. I mean a total different thing and it is not what you have in mind."

Ok. Only wooden bullets i know or have ever seen or heard about in the local neighbourhood are those excercise platzpatronen. Earlier excercise ammunition didn't have wooden bullets and that put me to think about those wooden bullet tests you told earlier.

We use aluminium heart bullets as close range rounds and they are lighter and cause less recoil. I like them 8) I only wander who the h*** wants to make bullets of wood since they are too light, soft, have no penetration capability + they are propably unstable and inaccurate.

But if developed succesfully and they really work and are able to match regular FMJ bullets, they could be very cheap, fast manufactured and production wouldn't stop by lack of material wich is only positive thing. But how to increase the bullet's mass? :shock:

 

[EOD]

Correct the aluminum cored short range projectiles have a knurling on the cylindrical part.
The one with the wood which is ALSO a short range projectile was probably taken out of service because of exact the treasons you mentioned.
The advantage was certainly the cheap manufacture and the light projectile.

Finland had later also a short range projectile beeing used on the 7.62x39 as well as on the 7.62x53R rifle cartridge. It consisted just of an empty projectile jacket which was drawn in one piece and had a closed base and an open tip (0.5-1mm) and looked like a round nose projectile. It also had a knurling for marking.
Beside all this Finland made countless prototypes in 7.62x39 with plastic cartridges (PT - plastic training) in various colors and also some with brass cases and plastic projectiles on them.

 

[EuroSpike]

"Finland had later also a short range projectile beeing used on the 7.62x39 as well as on the 7.62x53R rifle cartridge. It consisted just of an empty projectile jacket which was drawn in one piece and had a closed base and an open tip (0.5-1mm) and looked like a round nose projectile. It also had a knurling for marking.
Beside all this Finland made countless prototypes in 7.62x39 with plastic cartridges (PT - plastic training) in various colors and also some with brass cases and plastic projectiles on them."

PT cartridges were replaced by platzpatronen with wooden bullets in 80s if i remember right but there has been no PTs in use for long time and those platzpatronen are made in 7.62x53r too because PKM uses them and they are needed in combat excercises.

Wooden bullets just won't work as live combat ammunition and that can be easily proven by using mathematics and physical science and computer aided simulations and researching engineers are't stupid. The whole idea is mindless and what would happen those rounds if the get even a bit wet in rain?

Using short range projectiles along standard ammunition would only cause problems with logistic and thats why different calibres and ammo types have been kept only in few ones and old for example LMG62 uses the same 762x39 round as other assault rifles in the squad and platoon.

Aluminiun core round "ALS-round" is used and issued sometimes in live round excersises because it's lower price. It has lower penetration but is a good ammunition in ranges 0-150m, almost no recoil is very positive feature. 8)


What markings are on the bottoms of rounds and what reads on the ammo boxes (capacity 30rnds)? On the cartridge's bottoms should be marking "VPT" and manufacturing year and on ammo boxes ammunition's ID key should start with letters "JVA".

 

[EOD]

"Finland had later also a short range projectile beeing used on the 7.62x39 as well as on the 7.62x53R rifle cartridge. It consisted just of an empty projectile jacket which was drawn in one piece and had a closed base and an open tip (0.5-1mm) and looked like a round nose projectile. It also had a knurling for marking.
Beside all this Finland made countless prototypes in 7.62x39 with plastic cartridges (PT - plastic training) in various colors and also some with brass cases and plastic projectiles on them."

PT cartridges were replaced by platzpatronen with wooden bullets in 80s if i remember right but there has been no PTs in use for long time and those platzpatronen are made in 7.62x53r too because PKM uses them and they are needed in combat excercises.

Wooden bullets just won't work as live combat ammunition and that can be easily proven by using mathematics and physical science and computer aided simulations and researching engineers are't stupid. The whole idea is mindless and what would happen those rounds if the get even a bit wet in rain?

Using short range projectiles along standard ammunition would only cause problems with logistic and thats why different calibres and ammo types have been kept only in few ones and old for example LMG62 uses the same 762x39 round as other assault rifles in the squad and platoon.

Aluminiun core round "ALS-round" is used and issued sometimes in live round excersises because it's lower price. It has lower penetration but is a good ammunition in ranges 0-150m, almost no recoil is very positive feature. 8)


What markings are on the bottoms of rounds and what reads on the ammo boxes (capacity 30rnds)? On the cartridge's bottoms should be marking "VPT" and manufacturing year and on ammo boxes ammunition's ID key should start with letters "JVA".

Soaking water is probably why the wooden component short range cartridges were phased out (beside other reasons) - they have no combat value because they are meant for training.
The aluminum core rounds are certainly more expensive than the standart FMJ with lead core, they are just used to give a shorter danger zone and to be able to shoot in areas and shooting ranges closer to populated areas.
The Finnish cartridges have VPT (Lapua) or SO (Sako) head stamps, late prodcution has the word "LAPUA" fully written. There are even Italian head stamp on Finnish cartridges which were originally 6.5mm Carcano cartridges which were reworked and necked down to be a 7.62x39 cartridge (blanks and life rounds). This was done in the early days when Finalnd had plenty of that stuff left over from WWII.
Of course the Finnish ammo boxes have the "JVA-..." federal stock no on them.
I don't wont to puzzle you but my research on Finnish 7.62x39 cartridges is likely the largest outside Finland and I have a good friend there and another guy from outside Finland which have good relations to the manufacturers.

 

[EuroSpike]

"Soaking water is probably why the wooden component short range cartridges were phased out (beside other reasons) - they have no combat value because they are meant for training.
The aluminum core rounds are certainly more expensive than the standart FMJ with lead core, they are just used to give a shorter danger zone and to be able to shoot in areas and shooting ranges closer to populated areas.
The Finnish cartridges have VPT (Lapua) or SO (Sako) head stamps, late prodcution has the word "LAPUA" fully written. There are even Italian head stamp on Finnish cartridges which were originally 6.5mm Carcano cartridges which were reworked and necked down to be a 7.62x39 cartridge (blanks and life rounds). This was done in the early days when Finalnd had plenty of that stuff left over from WWII."

Oh sorry, i forgot, aluminium is more expensive to manufacture so ALS should be more expensive than common FMJs. The most common combat rounds used are basic VPTs with FMJ and lead core, phosfor rounds in night (can't translate in english) and ALS rounds. There is also a lot of german ex-DDR and russian imported rounds in storages and they are not used or seen anywhere during peace time.

That SO marking's origin i have wandered a lot but now it is clear, thanks for that.

"Of course the Finnish ammo boxes have the "JVA-..." federal stock no on them."

Letters come from words:
JVA = JalkaVäen Ampumatarvike, infantry's ammunition ordnance.
VPT = Valtion Patruuna Tehdas, state's ammunition factory.
SAKO = Suojeluskuntien AseKOrjaamo, homeguard's armory.
Lapua = A town in west finland.

"my research on Finnish 7.62x39 cartridges is likely the largest outside Finland and I have a good friend there and another guy from outside Finland which have good relations to the manufacturers."

Sounds interesting. I guess you have a large collection of different cartridges?

 

[k19]

yeah, some wood is HARD, my family has a long wooden chair made by red wood(don't know what you guys call it) and i can't even lift it by my own, and my father say if you throw it in the water, it sunks not flow......

 

[k19]

Oh yeah, I think it's possible, remember the CSI show, a guy uses grand beef to make the bullets heads (dip it into liquid Nitration or something) so after killing people, they can't find the bullets….

 

[EOD]

"
Sounds interesting. I guess you have a large collection of different cartridges?

Only about Soviet/Russian and related calibers as well as former Warsaw Pact and western copies of these cartridges (only ervice ammo).

 

[EuroSpike]

"
Sounds interesting. I guess you have a large collection of different cartridges?

Only about Soviet/Russian and related calibers as well as former Warsaw Pact and western copies of these cartridges (only ervice ammo).

I got various 7.62x39 cartridges from former eastern block countries, DDR and Germany. They are usually quite cheap stuff in finnish stores and fit eastern AKs with chromed barrel.

I have german made cartridges wich have markings 501 and 83 wich is propably manufacturing year. FMJ lead core bullets in olive green colored steel cases and detonators are colored dark green. I don't know their origin because ammo box doesn't tell anything else than "made in Germany" and 123gr FMJ Berdan-primed. Would you have some idea about those cartridges? I have found them to fit the best with eastern AKs barrel's tolerances.

DDR cartridges i have had or used have usually grey colored case, like Chzech made Sellier&Bellot rounds.

 

[EOD]

The "501" coded factory is actually a Chinese one, I wonder how these cartridges made it into German boxes (probably to sell them better). Even the described surface coating is typical Chinese.
Did you check if the projectiles have iron cores?
Is the dark green only the primer annulus or the whole primer?

The East Germans were using the codes "04" and "05" on SAA.

Czech military ones are coded "aym" or "bxn".
Civilian ones have the typical "S&B" headstamp.

Typical Russian military head stamps are "3", "17", "60", "270", "539" and "711" (on 7.62x39).

 

[EuroSpike]

The "501" coded factory is actually a Chinese one, I wonder how these cartridges made it into German boxes (probably to sell them better). Even the described surface coating is typical Chinese.
Did you check if the projectiles have iron cores?
Is the dark green only the primer annulus or the whole primer?

The East Germans were using the codes "04" and "05" on SAA.

Czech military ones are coded "aym" or "bxn".
Civilian ones have the typical "S&B" headstamp.

Typical Russian military head stamps are "3", "17", "60", "270", "539" and "711" (on 7.62x39).

Projectiles have iron cores, i have checked them with magnet and it attaches the bullet but the box says "lead core bullet".

All eastern rounds wich i have seen had iron core bullets. 501s look quite good like S&Bs compared to russian rounds wich use to have something red glue between bullet and russian green colored case. White ammo box tells nothing else about origin but "made in Germany". 501s just look too good and are too accurate to be chinese made.

I have wondered about the origin of 7.62x39 rounds sold here and if they were from former Warsaw pact countrie's storages. Masses of ex-DDR rounds have been imported here and sold in stores, that one wich looks the same as S&B with grey case.

Is there any differences between S&B and aym/bxn rounds? And do you have information about bullet's tolerances in different countries? I'm interested about tolerances because they are very important for accuracy.

VPT and Lapua/SAKO should be the same but VPT is sold only for military and Lapua or SAKO stamped rounds are used in service too. Fit bestly finnish RKs 62 and 95.

Where does KOPP stamped rounds come from? Box says they are chzech made but they look the same like russian Tula rounds and are nothing else than crap.

 

[EOD]

501 is Chinese made, regardless how good they look. Know about 20-40 Chinese manufacturers and the cartridges have a proper finnish.
The projectile is magnetic because they use soft iron for the projectile jackets. You have to cut one to find out about the core.
Chinese do also some rounds with lead core projectiles for export to countries that do not allow cores at all - so there is a fair chance that exactly your cartridges are some of them.

As you know yourself Finland is using lead in standard FMJ as well as Yugoslavia and I think South Africa and the USA (clandestine without head stamp during Vietnam and later for Central America by Lake City and Brass Extrusion Laboratories, LC made also some with head stamp). Finland is one of very few (or the only?) to use tombak for projectile jackets. As you know as well the Finnish 7.62x39 is much different from the Russian or that what is out there in the world.

S&B rounds should have lead cores I think, I never cut one because I do not deal with civilian stuff. The aym and bxn have steel cores (as usual for military).

Projectile diameter should be standardized in all countries (Finnish army is different) but it depends much how precise their diamerter was made and how "round" they are as well as the weight difference from projectile to projectile. Beside this it depends also on the chemical composition (burning characteristics) of the propellant and it's weight difference from ctg. to ctg. Further the projectile crimp and seating matter.

The 9x19 Para "KOPP" sold by the Czechs are made by Russia for them (Tula I think) and they were so lowsy that the Czechs stopped that and use (export) their own instead.

 

[EuroSpike]

"As you know yourself Finland is using lead in standard FMJ as well as Yugoslavia and I think South Africa and the USA (clandestine without head stamp during Vietnam and later for Central America by Lake City and Brass Extrusion Laboratories, LC made also some with head stamp). Finland is one of very few (or the only?) to use tombak for projectile jackets. As you know as well the Finnish 7.62x39 is much different from the Russian or that what is out there in the world."

Yes, tombak jacket is used in finnish bullets. RK62 and 95 don't have chromed barrels like eastern weapons and tombak jacket fits barrel's surface.


"S&B rounds should have lead cores I think, I never cut one because I do not deal with civilian stuff. The aym and bxn have steel cores (as usual for military)."

S&B rounds i have, got iron core and takes on magnet. Are they same with aym/bxn rounds? What are S&B rounds with bright non-iron case?

"Projectile diameter should be standardized in all countries (Finnish army is different) but it depends much how precise their diamerter was made and how "round" they are as well as the weight difference from projectile to projectile. Beside this it depends also on the chemical composition (burning characteristics) of the propellant and it's weight difference from ctg. to ctg. Further the projectile crimp and seating matter."

Would you have some information about used diameters? Do chinese and former Warsaw pact countries use same diameters and standards? And if you have finnish diameters too, i would be thankful for them.

 

[EOD]

The projectile diamerter on 7.62x39 is everywhere the same except for the Finnish military rounds.
I would like to tell you the measurements but I'm about 3000 km away from home right now and can't get my hands on the stuff to measure (for a few weeks).
I will try to ask my friend in Finland unless you take a micrometer and measure the projectile of a Russian and a Finnish cartridge yourself.
The different diameters are the reason why finnish service guns do not fire an other cartridge from Russia, China etc..

About the core in S&B rounds you must check what is inside since the jacket is magnetic anyway.
Other cases than steel or brass on S&B civilian cartridges?
I know they made experiments with aluminum cases in the 1960s but none with S&B head stamp.
Can you post an image of the case in question?

 

[EuroSpike]

"The projectile diamerter on 7.62x39 is everywhere the same except for the Finnish military rounds.
I would like to tell you the measurements but I'm about 3000 km away from home right now and can't get my hands on the stuff to measure (for a few weeks).
I will try to ask my friend in Finland unless you take a micrometer and measure the projectile of a Russian and a Finnish cartridge yourself.
The different diameters are the reason why finnish service guns do not fire an other cartridge from Russia, China etc.."

I don't have micrometer right now immediately available but i guess official diameter tables would give more reliable information than my own adjustments with micrometer. The official reason why not to use russian or any iron ammunition in finnish service weapons is lack of chromed barrel isn't it. Russian cartridges work on finnish rifles as well but life of the barrel will be shorter.

"About the core in S&B rounds you must check what is inside since the jacket is magnetic anyway.
Other cases than steel or brass on S&B civilian cartridges?
I know they made experiments with aluminum cases in the 1960s but none with S&B head stamp.
Can you post an image of the case in question?"

Yes, i guess i can.

I have some russian cartridges wich are Tula made. They have headstamp "wolf".

 

[battery]

They use those wooden riot control bullets. But they are fired from a 40mm grenade launcher and meant to be bounced off the ground.

Yup, well put, I'll provde more information on it.


It's meant to be a "less lethal" crowd control device, just like rubber bullets. Some are just meant to be discharged from a magazine fired rifle, some are meant to be put on a grende launcher and bounce of the ground into a growd.

http://athens.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/oakland_docks2.jpg


Not quite sure what went on in this topic beyond Egoz last post, but forgive me if I duplicated what anyone wrote.

 

[EOD]

"The projectile diamerter on 7.62x39 is everywhere the same except for the Finnish military rounds.
I would like to tell you the measurements but I'm about 3000 km away from home right now and can't get my hands on the stuff to measure (for a few weeks).
I will try to ask my friend in Finland unless you take a micrometer and measure the projectile of a Russian and a Finnish cartridge yourself.
The different diameters are the reason why finnish service guns do not fire an other cartridge from Russia, China etc.."

I don't have micrometer right now immediately available but i guess official diameter tables would give more reliable information than my own adjustments with micrometer. The official reason why not to use russian or any iron ammunition in finnish service weapons is lack of chromed barrel isn't it. Russian cartridges work on finnish rifles as well but life of the barrel will be shorter.

"About the core in S&B rounds you must check what is inside since the jacket is magnetic anyway.
Other cases than steel or brass on S&B civilian cartridges?
I know they made experiments with aluminum cases in the 1960s but none with S&B head stamp.
Can you post an image of the case in question?"

Yes, i guess i can.

I have some russian cartridges wich are Tula made. They have headstamp "wolf".

The Russian (and all others) have actually a larger diameter than the Finnish ones. I will get info from Finland in a few days.

The "Wolf" headstamped ones are Russian and should have lead cores.

Finally I found a way to upload images elsewhere. Here is the Finnish short range training cartridge with wood core:
http://img138.exs.cx/img138/3512/m43finland5kt.jpg

 

[Redleg]

Going a bit on and off-topic here now..

Please start a new thread about non-wooden bullet topics, it makes it a bit easier to follow the discussion(s)..

Thanks