What's your mind about my country?

[MontyB]

If i ask you to tell a word and a sentence about my country What you want to say?

Islamic Republic of Iran​

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I am somewhat ambivalent toward Iran, it has done nothing to me so I really have no axe to grind.

Unlike Kesse I don't care whether it is a theocracy or not as how it is run is up to Iranians to decide and unlike CT I have not been there but would like to go one day.

 

[Kesse81]

A question to moxen

Moxen, What is your attitude to us in the Western world?

 

[moxen]

Moxen, What is your attitude to us in the Western world?

The west is a train without cab, you're destroying lifes for biulding yours.
You killed 500+ children in 50 days in gaza with Most modern weapones, then a israeli child killed in an accident and your asking us for peace and calling us terrorist.
I told once:

If our children should be in fear by your bombs, why yours should be in peace.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

The west is a train without cab, you're destroying lifes for biulding yours.
You killed 500+ children in 50 days in gaza with Most modern weapones, then a israeli child killed in an accident and your asking us for peace and calling us terrorist.
I told once:

If our children should be in fear by your bombs, why yours should be in peace.

You are simplifying things. We didn't kill the Palestinian children, Israel did. Israel is violating International Law. Your country is violating HR, so there is no difference between what Israel does and what Iran does.

 

[moxen]

You are simplifying things. We didn't kill the Palestinian children, Israel did. Israel is violating International Law. Your country is violating HR, so there is no difference between what Israel does and what Iran does.

See this link
Israel did this? Who is Israel?
And we are defending ourself even if the just way is what you see.
And US can be angry with our method, it's not matter.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

See this link
Israel did this? Who is Israel?
And we are defending ourself even if the just way is what you see.
And US can be angry with our method, it's not matter.

Israel is responsible for its actions, are you blaming all of us for what Israel does? What about Iran's violations of Human Rights? Our fault too?

 

[moxen]

Israel is responsible for its actions, are you blaming all of us for what Israel does? What about Iran's violations of Human Rights? Our fault too?

About Israel , you western are supporting Israel, Giving a gun to a killer for killinge someone isn't killing him?
US and UK veto'ed UN sanctions against Israel all western countries are selling waepones to Israel , I think you should be responsible.
And about us, You showed your sharp theeth to Iran, I think you must study Iran-Iraq war and USS Vincenss story. When a hungry wolf is tracking you you should be ready.

 

[JOC]

About Israel , you western are supporting Israel, Giving a gun to a killer for killinge someone isn't killing him?
US and UK veto'ed UN sanctions against Israel all western countries are selling waepones to Israel , I think you should be responsible.
And about us, You showed your sharp theeth to Iran, I think you must study Iran-Iraq war and USS Vincenss story. When a hungry wolf is tracking you you should be ready.

Also the US sells-giving those same arms to the Gulf states, the Saudis, Kuwait, Turkey, Jordon

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

About Israel , you western are supporting Israel, Giving a gun to a killer for killinge someone isn't killing him?
US and UK veto'ed UN sanctions against Israel all western countries are selling waepones to Israel , I think you should be responsible.
And about us, You showed your sharp theeth to Iran, I think you must study Iran-Iraq war and USS Vincenss story. When a hungry wolf is tracking you you should be ready.

Are we really? You need to go back to school, boy.

 

[brinktk]

Yes. No combat in Iran. Mostly just training exercises. Although we had a couple of run ins with a few idiots.

How did you do training exercises in Iran with the Iranians? I have NEVER heard of any conventional force member having anything to do with Iran or its' military...

 

[brinktk]

About Israel , you western are supporting Israel, Giving a gun to a killer for killinge someone isn't killing him?
US and UK veto'ed UN sanctions against Israel all western countries are selling waepones to Israel , I think you should be responsible.
And about us, You showed your sharp theeth to Iran, I think you must study Iran-Iraq war and USS Vincenss story. When a hungry wolf is tracking you you should be ready.

So you're saying that anyone who gives/sells a weapon to another person for ANY reason, they are responsible for what that person does with that weapon?

There are ten's of thousands(at least) of dead Iraqis and Afghanis because the Iranians sold/supplied huge amounts of weapons to insurgent groups in both countries... So by your logic, Iran is responsible for those dead...

Iran also has Cobra's and F-14s left over from the time of the Shah, does that mean if Iran uses those weapons to kill people that the US is still responsible? Where does one draw the line? What about the makers of the weapons themselves, are the companies responsible for how their weapons are used?..Or what about the people working in those companies, are they also responsible for deaths related to the weapons? Perhaps the even the janitor is culpable too, he cleans up the mess that is made by the workers who work for a company that make weapons that are sold to a government, which then are sold from that government to another government, who then uses those weapons to arm their soldiers, fighters, whatever...who then may or may not use those weapons against maybe "good" "innocent" "bad" "insert adjective" persons...Maybe the mice that live in the factory's are culpable too because they are benefiting from living there! Roaches too! And spiders, and flies, and mosquitoes, and bacteria! They're all to blame!

Wow...no wonder we will never have peace in this world...there are just too many guilty parties...

 

[moxen]

So you're saying that anyone who gives/sells a weapon to another person for ANY reason, they are responsible for what that person does with that weapon?

When knows this weapon is using to kill children yes? In case of Israel , Jews killed in Germany why their country should be in Palestine. This is your trick for a unfinishable war in M.E.

There are ten's of thousands(at least) of dead Iraqis and Afghanis because the Iranians sold/supplied huge amounts of weapons to insurgent groups in both countries... So by your logic, Iran is responsible for those dead...


1.We armed Jaish almahdi, Badr militants and groups like this two , they attacked to your army not people.
2.When your hellfire missiles kill Iraqi families your asking me this.
3.You made alqaeda, annosra, daesh(isis) añd are supporting terrorist groups like Mujahidin khalgh, Jayshuladl, Rigi's team.
4.Yes we should be responsible for people killed and women raped and lost in Iraq and Afghanistan because we couldn'thelp them to defend themeself against your troops.



Iran also has Cobra's and F-14s left over from the time of the Shah, does that mean if Iran uses those weapons to kill people that the US is still responsible? Where does one draw the line?

Not when you call self defence the matter of killing more than 500 children in an small zone like gaza under US diplomatic support.

So, you are not responsible to that. Good news, so keep yourself back until we are destroying Israel through arming Hamas and hizballah and making a new hamas in WestBank.

 

[MontyB]

You are simplifying things. We didn't kill the Palestinian children, Israel did. Israel is violating International Law. Your country is violating HR, so there is no difference between what Israel does and what Iran does.

I am not sure he is simplifying things, sure it wasnt western troops firing the shells but it was western money that paid for the shells and the weapons that fired them now that might not make us responsible but it should make us question our policies on who we sell to.

Further to this the US twice voted increased military funding and emergency shipments to Israel to replace stocks of ammunition depleted during the operation.

So we paid for, supplied and maintained the operation that killed 2000 plus Palestinians essentially all we didn't do was pull the trigger should we really be all that proud of ourselves?

As for Israel being in breach of international law again rather meaningless when any resolution to enforce international law is automatically vetoed.

So I think he is right we do carry a large proportion of responsibilty for what transpired and it is only us that can prevent it happening again.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

I am not sure he is simplifying things, sure it wasnt western troops firing the shells but it was western money that paid for the shells and the weapons that fired them now that might not make us responsible but it should make us question our policies on who we sell to.

Further to this the US twice voted increased military funding and emergency shipments to Israel to replace stocks of ammunition depleted during the operation.

So we paid for, supplied and maintained the operation that killed 2000 plus Palestinians essentially all we didn't do was pull the trigger should we really be all that proud of ourselves?

As for Israel being in breach of international law again rather meaningless when any resolution to enforce international law is automatically vetoed.

So I think he is right we do carry a large proportion of responsibilty for what transpired and it is only us that can prevent it happening again.

The US is providing Israel with arms. Europe doesn't. European countries are buying high tech stuff from Israel, a lot of the components in our cell phones and computers are made in Israel. The US is not the only country in the Western World. Europeans begins to move from being pro Israel to be more skeptical, especially after the latest war. However, that doesn't make Europe to be supportive of Iran.

 

[MontyB]

The US is providing Israel with arms. Europe doesn't. European countries are buying high tech stuff from Israel, a lot of the components in our cell phones and computers are made in Israel. The US is not the only country in the Western World. Europeans begins to move from being pro Israel to be more skeptical, especially after the latest war. However, that doesn't make Europe to be supportive of Iran.

No it is not the only country in the Western world but while it was paying for Israelis to kill Palestinians the rest of the world sat by and did nothing other than mouth the same empty platitudes it does every time.

As Edmund Burke once said all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing, I would suggest that for all the wests best intentions we have done nothing but sit by and let evil triumph.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

No it is not the only country in the Western world but while it was paying for Israelis to kill Palestinians the rest of the world sat by and did nothing other than mouth the same empty platitudes it does every time.

As Edmund Burke once said all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing, I would suggest that for all the wests best intentions we have done nothing but sit by and let evil triumph.

I agree with what you are saying and I might have bad news about the Swedish recognition of Palestine. There is a political crisis in Sweden and we will have a new election in March, next year. It is an interesting time in Sweden now, I am somewhat amused with all this. I won't go into details about what is going on. Although, we have a political party which agenda is to reduce the amount of immigrants and it was quite successful in the latest election. (two months ago) The parliament here never passed the governments budget for the next four years and now we will have a new election.

 

[moxen]

Eauropean support of Israel
Merkava's Engine
Dolphine Submarines
Boxer (armoured fighting vehicle)
And german destoyers
Or you're thinking Germany is in Africa

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Eauropean support of Israel
Merkava's Engine
Dolphine Submarines
Boxer (armoured fighting vehicle)
And german destoyers
Or you're thinking Germany is in Africa

Germany is not the whole Europe......There are many other countries with arms manufacturing.

However, the latest war between Israel and Gaza/Hamas changed the perception of Israel in Europe. The discussions in the EU's institutions have changed and not in a favorable way to Israel. However as long as Israel has an unconditional support from the US, nothing will change.

When the US has a "friend" like Israel, the US doesn't need any enemies. Spying on the US, the US surveillance ship attacked by the Israeli Air Force, using forged passport from countries supposed to be allied to Israel. Especially the passport stories, they are the incidents we know about, how many we don't know because they weren't caught.

ps. the ships called destroyers looks much more like frigates and the Boxer is a NATO vehicle, the UK was first on board with it but shifted to support their own industry. The engine is made in the US with a license, but some parts are made in Germany. I stand corrected for the submarine, I forgot about that one.

 

[MontyB]

I agree with what you are saying and I might have bad news about the Swedish recognition of Palestine. There is a political crisis in Sweden and we will have a new election in March, next year. It is an interesting time in Sweden now, I am somewhat amused with all this. I won't go into details about what is going on. Although, we have a political party which agenda is to reduce the amount of immigrants and it was quite successful in the latest election. (two months ago) The parliament here never passed the governments budget for the next four years and now we will have a new election.

Sweden recognising Palestine or not is somewhat irrelevant now (after all that government was never going to be in power for ever) that Europe is gradually going through the motions of non-binding recognition anyway, but in order to bring this mess to a close it is going to require the USA to genuinely attempt to bring it to a close to date the US mediation attempts have been to impartially agree to everything Israel wants while generously recommending the Palestinians agree to it as well.

The good news is that things are changing in the US as seen by the recent growth of support for the BDS movement on US campuses.

Latest polls show rather dramatic changes in US thinking on the I/P issue with almost as many people now thinking that the only solution to this process is a one state solution rather than two and a one state solution is the end of Israel as a "Jewish" state.

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Research/Files/Reports/2014/12/05%20american%20opinion%20poll%20israeli%20palestinian%20conflict%20telhami/israel_palestine_key_findings_telhami_FINAL.pdf

Germany is not the whole Europe......There are many other countries with arms manufacturing.

However, the latest war between Israel and Gaza/Hamas changed the perception of Israel in Europe. The discussions in the EU's institutions have changed and not in a favorable way to Israel. However as long as Israel has an unconditional support from the US, nothing will change.

When the US has a "friend" like Israel, the US doesn't need any enemies. Spying on the US, the US surveillance ship attacked by the Israeli Air Force, using forged passport from countries supposed to be allied to Israel. Especially the passport stories, they are the incidents we know about, how many we don't know because they weren't caught.

ps. the ships called destroyers looks much more like frigates and the Boxer is a NATO vehicle, the UK was first on board with it but shifted to support their own industry. The engine is made in the US with a license, but some parts are made in Germany. I stand corrected for the submarine, I forgot about that one.

Hang on a second you can not continue to argue that all this is being done in isolation, so far you have argued that the USA isn't the only country in the western world now state Germany is not the only country in Europe the fact is that the Western world is propping up Israel, Both Britain and France are supplying weapons as I think are Spain (I assume this because during the Gaza war Spain stated that it was reexamining its exports to Israel).

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Sweden recognising Palestine or not is somewhat irrelevant now (after all that government was never going to be in power for ever) that Europe is gradually going through the motions of non-binding recognition anyway, but in order to bring this mess to a close it is going to require the USA to genuinely attempt to bring it to a close to date the US mediation attempts have been to impartially agree to everything Israel wants while generously recommending the Palestinians agree to it as well.

The good news is that things are changing in the US as seen by the recent growth of support for the BDS movement on US campuses.

Latest polls show rather dramatic changes in US thinking on the I/P issue with almost as many people now thinking that the only solution to this process is a one state solution rather than two and a one state solution is the end of Israel as a "Jewish" state.

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Research/Files/Reports/2014/12/05%20american%20opinion%20poll%20israeli%20palestinian%20conflict%20telhami/israel_palestine_key_findings_telhami_FINAL.pdf



Hang on a second you can not continue to argue that all this is being done in isolation, so far you have argued that the USA isn't the only country in the western world now state Germany is not the only country in Europe the fact is that the Western world is propping up Israel, Both Britain and France are supplying weapons as I think are Spain (I assume this because during the Gaza war Spain stated that it was reexamining its exports to Israel).

The European Union is changing its attitude toward Israel. Maybe something will change, even if the changes are only symbolic. Germany is an important economic power in Europe, but it is not the whole Europe and cash doesn't stink. Sweden will never sell any of the arms developed and produced here, Sweden is a big producer of artillery and anti-tank systems. The major change occur among people with liberal values, the politicians on the right side of the political spectrum. I don't care about arms sales, in the long run, they don't matter when the policy begins to change. But it takes a long time for it to change.

However, the Europeans are more concerned about Russia right now than Israel

The only thing that will change anything is if Israel suffers a lot of casualties in a short period of time. If or rather when it happens, the Israelis want to negotiate.