What would the world be like if Germany won World War II?
FULLMETALJACKET
MilForum Bad Apple
we would have mustaches.
Ollie Garchy
Active member
yingying said:
This point is strange. It should read: If Japan won, few Chinese would be around or capable of reading an internet post. This is just my way of saying that people take Hitler's Lebensraum notions too far. When did the National Socialists even mention China? In what context? The instrumentalization of Nazism by the non-European world (ie. Bush is Hitler, etc.) is just plain strange.
Damien435
Active member
See, here's the thing, Hitler would not have been able to defeat the United States, what besides my patriotism could provoke such a statement you ask? Well I don't know but I do have a justification.
Now, I read the first few pages of "In The Presense of Mine Enemies" by Harry Turtledove and although I have always likes his work I had to put the book back and buy another one. In the first few pages it stated that the United States paid a yearly tribute to Germany to presumably pay for their "protection" because Germany had several bases on American soil and "the Americans would complain but they would still pay, if not the Panzers in those bases would start rolling out." Now, let me explain something to everyone here, Americans did not want to become involved with WWII because it wasn't our war, it was a European war, let them deal with, but once it became our war started kicking :cen: left and right. America would not have permitted Germany to build bases on our soil and certainly not so near to our major cities (the book stated these bases were near New York City, Washington D.C. and Los Angeles).
BTW, Ollie Garchy, the questions is "If Hitler had won WWII" keyword: world.
While the U-boats may have been formitable against unarmed merchant vessels they are pretty much useless in escorting a surface fleet that would be used to launch an invasion against a nation 3,000 miles away. The US Navy, if memory serves me correct, was the second largest navy prior to WWII (Second to Britain but just ahead of France) and the largest after WWII (Second to none, obvisouly) and unlike Germany we had a large surface fleet, while we only had a handful of carriers prior to WWII our industrial capabilities were unmatched by any other nations and by the end of the war we had over 200 carriers (that number includes the "Tin Cans" escort carriers that only had about six carriers each). Any invasion Hitler would hope to launch in his own lifetime would almost certainly do so with inadequate air support and would be chewed to pieces by the Army Air Corps assuming it made it passed the US Navy (which I find unlikely).Author Unknown said:
Now, I read the first few pages of "In The Presense of Mine Enemies" by Harry Turtledove and although I have always likes his work I had to put the book back and buy another one. In the first few pages it stated that the United States paid a yearly tribute to Germany to presumably pay for their "protection" because Germany had several bases on American soil and "the Americans would complain but they would still pay, if not the Panzers in those bases would start rolling out." Now, let me explain something to everyone here, Americans did not want to become involved with WWII because it wasn't our war, it was a European war, let them deal with, but once it became our war started kicking :cen: left and right. America would not have permitted Germany to build bases on our soil and certainly not so near to our major cities (the book stated these bases were near New York City, Washington D.C. and Los Angeles).
BTW, Ollie Garchy, the questions is "If Hitler had won WWII" keyword: world.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
If Germany had won WW2 it would mean it would have defeated the US as well, right?
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Oh man, you guys are confused. This is not a Nazi Germany vs USA thread, this has already happened.
The thread asks: "What would the world be like if Hitler had won?".
It means guessing the US, UK and USSR combined were not able to defeat Hitler. No nukes, nothing.
Now, what would the world be like???
That is the thread. I mean it might prove hard for Americans to even imagine such a scenario but this is an effort of fantasy and imagination. Come on.
The thread asks: "What would the world be like if Hitler had won?".
It means guessing the US, UK and USSR combined were not able to defeat Hitler. No nukes, nothing.
Now, what would the world be like???
That is the thread. I mean it might prove hard for Americans to even imagine such a scenario but this is an effort of fantasy and imagination. Come on.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Now this is a good answer :-D.Damien435 said:
Guess I can't argue with that.
Ollie Garchy
Active member
RESPONSE TO "BTW, Ollie Garchy, the questions is "If Hitler had won WWII" keyword: world".
(1) The US had 2 nukes in August 1945 with more in production. Good point, however, the mythical German invasion of the United States was a non-starter.
(2) The German military was incapable of an attack against the United States...nor did any real planning exist. For godsakes, no real planning for an invasion of Britain existed until military realities pressed the issue. German generals generally abhored the idea. So did Hitler...who, if you read what he stated, wanted a continental German empire alongside the British empire. This being the case, physical world domination has no place in serious discourse...it is just folklore.
Nor did Nazi theory even advance the idea. All of the bizarre arguments supposing Hitler's quest for world domination forget the following: Hitler defined world domination in the sense of the British Empire...ie. a core region that extended great power influence into the periphery.
THEREFORE, any thinking concerning a Nazi world has to agree that a large German core region would have dominated Europe and exerted a tremendous pull on global affairs. Forget such stupid notions as global genocide or other ridiculous concepts that no Nazi even entertained.
In fact, Nazi theory seemed more akin to American developments and the creation of a unipolar world system. Aborginal genocide + Continenal expansion built on slavery + Monroe Doctrine + Truman Doctrine + Bush. Empires use compliant states to cement their power. There is no evidence to suggest that the Nazis rejected the assistance of allies. Actually, the evidence suggests that the opposite was true.
Read Stoakes, "Hitler and the Quest for World Domination".
(1) The US had 2 nukes in August 1945 with more in production. Good point, however, the mythical German invasion of the United States was a non-starter.
(2) The German military was incapable of an attack against the United States...nor did any real planning exist. For godsakes, no real planning for an invasion of Britain existed until military realities pressed the issue. German generals generally abhored the idea. So did Hitler...who, if you read what he stated, wanted a continental German empire alongside the British empire. This being the case, physical world domination has no place in serious discourse...it is just folklore.
Nor did Nazi theory even advance the idea. All of the bizarre arguments supposing Hitler's quest for world domination forget the following: Hitler defined world domination in the sense of the British Empire...ie. a core region that extended great power influence into the periphery.
THEREFORE, any thinking concerning a Nazi world has to agree that a large German core region would have dominated Europe and exerted a tremendous pull on global affairs. Forget such stupid notions as global genocide or other ridiculous concepts that no Nazi even entertained.
In fact, Nazi theory seemed more akin to American developments and the creation of a unipolar world system. Aborginal genocide + Continenal expansion built on slavery + Monroe Doctrine + Truman Doctrine + Bush. Empires use compliant states to cement their power. There is no evidence to suggest that the Nazis rejected the assistance of allies. Actually, the evidence suggests that the opposite was true.
Read Stoakes, "Hitler and the Quest for World Domination".
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WarMachine
Active member
The nazis probably would have reserved a lot of space for themselves to populate and spread their aryan heritage all over the planet. I heard that they were planning to kill off most of the slavs in eastern europe to make room for german settlers, now that's hardcore genocide.
Germany itself would have tremendous power with no one opposing them and everyon allied to them. It would be a sort of golden age for the germans thanks to all their post war properity but a dark age for all they rule over. I doubt there would be any jews or other undesirables left while hitler was still alive so you would have even more killing. There would be no cold war and nuclear weapons would have been few in quantity since the nazis would've probably kept them to themselves along with the technology.
After a few decades the regime would start experiencing changes from the likes of rebels and nationalists they oppressed and would eventually agree to some compromises with them. The germans might be in power for a while, but the thrid reich would have been just another empire waiting for its time to pass and let the world continue its course.
Who knows, maybe once the nazis lost their power the nations of the world would unite to finish off their common foe and create a workable world society without as many problems that we have today like terrorism and globalization exploitation. No modern empire lives long and the nazis are no exception.
Germany itself would have tremendous power with no one opposing them and everyon allied to them. It would be a sort of golden age for the germans thanks to all their post war properity but a dark age for all they rule over. I doubt there would be any jews or other undesirables left while hitler was still alive so you would have even more killing. There would be no cold war and nuclear weapons would have been few in quantity since the nazis would've probably kept them to themselves along with the technology.
After a few decades the regime would start experiencing changes from the likes of rebels and nationalists they oppressed and would eventually agree to some compromises with them. The germans might be in power for a while, but the thrid reich would have been just another empire waiting for its time to pass and let the world continue its course.
Who knows, maybe once the nazis lost their power the nations of the world would unite to finish off their common foe and create a workable world society without as many problems that we have today like terrorism and globalization exploitation. No modern empire lives long and the nazis are no exception.
Bory
Active member
One thing, not alot of people here have brought up.
If the Nazi's won WWII, so would have the Japanese and the Italians.
Italy and Germany would have dominated all the European Nations, and all the French, Belgain and British Colonies in Africa.
Imagine the 1960's decoloniastion, with the SS and Gestapo involved, not a pretty thought.
The State of Israel, would not exist, the Middle East would have been controlled by The Nazi's or Fascit Puppets of Italy and Germany.
Many, if not all nations would be allied to Germany, Italy and Japan.
Japan would control all of China, and all of the Pacific rim.
All nations would either be influenced or controlled by Facist groups. Democracy may not be gone however, it would however been dominated by Right Wing Parties.
If the Nazi's won WWII, so would have the Japanese and the Italians.
Italy and Germany would have dominated all the European Nations, and all the French, Belgain and British Colonies in Africa.
Imagine the 1960's decoloniastion, with the SS and Gestapo involved, not a pretty thought.
The State of Israel, would not exist, the Middle East would have been controlled by The Nazi's or Fascit Puppets of Italy and Germany.
Many, if not all nations would be allied to Germany, Italy and Japan.
Japan would control all of China, and all of the Pacific rim.
All nations would either be influenced or controlled by Facist groups. Democracy may not be gone however, it would however been dominated by Right Wing Parties.
Damien435
Active member
Bory said:
Japan lost the war on December 7th, 1941, it just took a while for everyone to catch up.
If Europe falls and Japan still attacks the US then we do pretty much the opposite of what we actually go at Japan with everything at our disposal with holding just enough to keep the Germans at bay, which shouldn't be hard considering the vast amount of territory they would have to administer, the Wehrmacht would have their hands full with pockets of resistance in Russia and Britain, Japan had their holds full with China before involving the US, they couldn't hope to hold back China and the US. In the end Britain would be defeated but they would still administer some of their colonies, most notably India and Canada (assuming the US didn't annex Canada to prevent a German invasion), Russia would be defeated but because of the vast size of Russia and the relatively small population of Germany it would be decades before the nation would be truly under control.
No, I just can not admit a total German victory without going several decades into the future, which I can not do either. What I will admit is that the world would be vastly different than it is today, with Germany and America(s?) as two enemies fighting a cold war with occasional hot spots. Also, I think Argentina is invaded by Brazil and the US since Argentina was in Germany's pocket until two weeks before Germany collapsed. Given the distances involved and the status of the German navy they can do little more than complain. So, you have a German controlled Europe, most of Asia, and parts of Africa against the America's dominated by the United States and then some neutral countries in Asia and Africa.
Bory
Active member
So Damien, you beleive that if Europe was conquered, America would completely concern itself with Japan.
I didn't consider this possiblility, and thank you for bringing it up actually.
But for that to occur, Hitler would have to not have declared War on the US, therefore giving the US no reason to enter Europe.
I just cannot imagine the US ignoring a Declaration of War, especially by the Nazi's.
I didn't consider this possiblility, and thank you for bringing it up actually.
But for that to occur, Hitler would have to not have declared War on the US, therefore giving the US no reason to enter Europe.
I just cannot imagine the US ignoring a Declaration of War, especially by the Nazi's.
Damien435
Active member
It's simple Bory, the technology did not exist for either nation to try and launch an amphibious assault across 3,000 miles of ocean. The US wouldn't ignore Germany, a tentative peace would settle upon the world as neither nation would be able to deliver the knock out blow against the other and wars are very costly.
Here's a very polarized map of what I envision the world would be like. I toyed with the thought of listing neutrals too but in the end I voted to just list America and her allies (or nations whose politics are dominated by America) and Germany and her allies (or nations dominated by Germany.) As you can see I divided up Africa and Asia, let me explain. I divided Africa up by determining what nation they were a colony of. Southern Africa was almost entirely colonized by the Allies, the governments of Belgium, Britain, France and the Netherlands would operate in exile in their former colonies. The Germans would have continued the fight in Africa, but their armies could only stretch so far before they would be forced to stop less from Allied resistance but more from shear distance from their source of supplies. China would still go "red' in that the communist revolution would still take place but because of the German-occupied Russia to the north they would side with America. Japan, as I mention before, would be defeated, they are too far away from Germany for them to send much more than token assistance and as I have already mention, the US would have gone after Japan first instead of Europe. Southeast Asia would be shielded by India to the west and China to the north so German influence would be minimal. Governments of Britain and the Netherlands would retain a certain degree of control over these areas but India and the East Indies would be granted a certain degree of semi-autonomy.
Now, about this whole victory conditions, here's mine.
Germany wins if they expand no further than Russia, France and England. Even if everywhere they go they get slapped around like rag dolls they are victorious because they have conquered the largest empire in the history of mankind, regardless of whether the US remains or not.
The US wins by remaining independent and without losing any territories, simple as that.
As you can see, by my own victory conditions both nations can win. IMO the only problem with this outcome is that the Nazi's were the most evil sons of :cen:ches to ever walk the face of the earth and it would be far preferable if the world was united under one compassionate government, not one that survives by declaring group after group enemies of the state until everyone is dead.
Here's a very polarized map of what I envision the world would be like. I toyed with the thought of listing neutrals too but in the end I voted to just list America and her allies (or nations whose politics are dominated by America) and Germany and her allies (or nations dominated by Germany.) As you can see I divided up Africa and Asia, let me explain. I divided Africa up by determining what nation they were a colony of. Southern Africa was almost entirely colonized by the Allies, the governments of Belgium, Britain, France and the Netherlands would operate in exile in their former colonies. The Germans would have continued the fight in Africa, but their armies could only stretch so far before they would be forced to stop less from Allied resistance but more from shear distance from their source of supplies. China would still go "red' in that the communist revolution would still take place but because of the German-occupied Russia to the north they would side with America. Japan, as I mention before, would be defeated, they are too far away from Germany for them to send much more than token assistance and as I have already mention, the US would have gone after Japan first instead of Europe. Southeast Asia would be shielded by India to the west and China to the north so German influence would be minimal. Governments of Britain and the Netherlands would retain a certain degree of control over these areas but India and the East Indies would be granted a certain degree of semi-autonomy.
Now, about this whole victory conditions, here's mine.
Germany wins if they expand no further than Russia, France and England. Even if everywhere they go they get slapped around like rag dolls they are victorious because they have conquered the largest empire in the history of mankind, regardless of whether the US remains or not.
The US wins by remaining independent and without losing any territories, simple as that.
As you can see, by my own victory conditions both nations can win. IMO the only problem with this outcome is that the Nazi's were the most evil sons of :cen:ches to ever walk the face of the earth and it would be far preferable if the world was united under one compassionate government, not one that survives by declaring group after group enemies of the state until everyone is dead.
Ollie Garchy
Active member
Damien435 said:
I am quite glad to see that some people agree with me.:-D
Doppleganger
Active member
The post war world with a victorious Germany does pose some interesting questions. Whilst I do believe that Germany would control Europe and the near East I have doubts as to how much further they could either extend their influence and maintain it.
1) Would Germany be able to maintain control over remote former USSR states, such as those in the Far East. There are huge cultural influences nearby, not least from China. It would be very costly both economically and in terms of military resources to police such a vast region. We've seen with the break-up of the former USSR that unless very tight control is continually maintained, some states will begin the movement to break-away towards independence.
2) How long would Nazi Germany be able to maintain control over such a vast empire? The Romans did it partly by respecting local laws and customs so long as they didn't oppose Roman laws and values. Would the virulent policies of the Nazis allow the same? We've all seen what happened when the German Army entered the Ukraine for the first time. A perfect situation to exploit local goodwill but the policies of the Nazis meant that this was all but impossible. Would German culture be able to have the same influence on the post war world as say the culture of the US?
3) Would the rise of Islam still happen in such a post-war world? I think so, given that many of the conditions for its rise, poverty, cultural hatred of the West and rejection of western values for example, would still exist. There is no doubt that the Middle East would not be the powder keg it is today. There would be no state of Israel and we can imagine how the Nazis would take care of the Jewish problem. But how would Nazi Germany embrace Islam? A big question I think.
4) Would there be a normalisation of Nazi policies? If we imagine that were would be 2 spheres of influence, the matter of global trading would eventually arise. If the German Reich lasted more than a decade after the war's end, it is unlikely that there wouldn't exchange of goods, ideas and services between the 2 power blocs to some degree, whether their leaders desired it or not. Whilst I think the Nazis could maintain an iron grip in Europe, I doubt that they would be continually able to do so at the edges of their empire. Would we see over time a softening of Nazi policies as we moved towards the information age? With information comes power. In the age of the interent say, could Nazi Germany maintain their tyrannical grip? Could the Nazis really keep such proud cultures as the French and English suppressed for decades without a softening of policies?
5) Would we eventually see a collapse of the Nazi hegemony, as we did with the Soviet Union? To keep control of their empire, the Soviets had to run with a military budget much higher than their western counterparts. sacrificing their economic growth and infrastructure amongst other things. We saw how the Soviets in WW2 were able to sacrifice their own civilian infrastructure in order to win against Germany. Would the more Western attitudes of the Germans and their occupied peoples allow them to accept conditions such as existed in Russia and the satellite states of the USSR?
1) Would Germany be able to maintain control over remote former USSR states, such as those in the Far East. There are huge cultural influences nearby, not least from China. It would be very costly both economically and in terms of military resources to police such a vast region. We've seen with the break-up of the former USSR that unless very tight control is continually maintained, some states will begin the movement to break-away towards independence.
2) How long would Nazi Germany be able to maintain control over such a vast empire? The Romans did it partly by respecting local laws and customs so long as they didn't oppose Roman laws and values. Would the virulent policies of the Nazis allow the same? We've all seen what happened when the German Army entered the Ukraine for the first time. A perfect situation to exploit local goodwill but the policies of the Nazis meant that this was all but impossible. Would German culture be able to have the same influence on the post war world as say the culture of the US?
3) Would the rise of Islam still happen in such a post-war world? I think so, given that many of the conditions for its rise, poverty, cultural hatred of the West and rejection of western values for example, would still exist. There is no doubt that the Middle East would not be the powder keg it is today. There would be no state of Israel and we can imagine how the Nazis would take care of the Jewish problem. But how would Nazi Germany embrace Islam? A big question I think.
4) Would there be a normalisation of Nazi policies? If we imagine that were would be 2 spheres of influence, the matter of global trading would eventually arise. If the German Reich lasted more than a decade after the war's end, it is unlikely that there wouldn't exchange of goods, ideas and services between the 2 power blocs to some degree, whether their leaders desired it or not. Whilst I think the Nazis could maintain an iron grip in Europe, I doubt that they would be continually able to do so at the edges of their empire. Would we see over time a softening of Nazi policies as we moved towards the information age? With information comes power. In the age of the interent say, could Nazi Germany maintain their tyrannical grip? Could the Nazis really keep such proud cultures as the French and English suppressed for decades without a softening of policies?
5) Would we eventually see a collapse of the Nazi hegemony, as we did with the Soviet Union? To keep control of their empire, the Soviets had to run with a military budget much higher than their western counterparts. sacrificing their economic growth and infrastructure amongst other things. We saw how the Soviets in WW2 were able to sacrifice their own civilian infrastructure in order to win against Germany. Would the more Western attitudes of the Germans and their occupied peoples allow them to accept conditions such as existed in Russia and the satellite states of the USSR?
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Damien, your theory is certainly fascinating, but I have two things to add.
1. I haven't fully understood what the role of Japan would have been. Would they still be allies of Berlin? Wouldn't they still have Indonesia, French Indochina, Korea and Eastern China? I mean that would be a lot of raw materials for starters, and working force. Or are you implying that the US defeats Japan and pushed it back to their main 4 islands?
2. In my opinion Germany would have dominated the world as it would have had 95% of the world's oil reserves (Middle East, Russia, Northern Sea).
1. I haven't fully understood what the role of Japan would have been. Would they still be allies of Berlin? Wouldn't they still have Indonesia, French Indochina, Korea and Eastern China? I mean that would be a lot of raw materials for starters, and working force. Or are you implying that the US defeats Japan and pushed it back to their main 4 islands?
2. In my opinion Germany would have dominated the world as it would have had 95% of the world's oil reserves (Middle East, Russia, Northern Sea).
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Damien435
Active member
Italian Guy said:
Do I detect sarcasm?
I operated on the basis that A.) Japan's egos would prevail over their wits (Japan believed the three most powerful nations in the world in 1940 were Japan, Germany and the United States, in that order.) and Japan would still attacking the United States thinking they would get a quick knockout blow. However I believe that because of the size of the territory Germany had already conquered and their distance from Japan they would not be able to send any sort of real aid and America would still triumph over Japan. Let's not forget that Japan was using half their resources fighting a war in China.
Yes, but in the 40's the US still had a surplus of oil and we were actually selling it to other nations. (hard to believe I know.) If the US were limited in the use of oil we would have built more nuclear power plants and a heavier investment in renewable resources would have taken place. However Germany would have sold oil to the US and use the threat of cutting off the oil supply to keep America in check rather than just cutting it off and letting America wither. Why would they do this? $$$
Ollie Garchy
Active member
Italian Guy said:
And Italy would have dominated the Med...Mare Nostrum.