What if Hitler had nuclear weapons?

[Der Alte]

Why is the myth of “Hitler’s bomb” so persistent?

This myth serves as a symbol for the apologia of the German scientific community. Since many Germans still wrestle uneasily with their ambivalent past, it should be no surprise that so do some German scientists, A considerable amount of Germanophobia undeniably still exists inside and outside of Germany.​

The wounds caused by World War II are still open. For historical reasons, Heisenberg and von Weizsacker have been singled out unfairly as scapegoats for the collaboration of scientists with National Socialism, ironically just as they had treated the followers of Deutsche Physik after the war.​

There also seems to be an irrational fascination with the thought of a conspiracy, and this fascination has taken two different forms. First, there are those who believe in Jungk’s 1956 conspiracy theory. Second, in stark opposition to Jungk, there are those who believe in another type of conspiracy, in particular that, after working wholeheartedly for Hitler, these German scientists now conspired to deceive the rest of the world into believing that they had resisted him.​

But there was no conspiracy, rather apologia, and the distinction is important. Unwillingness or inability to face an unpleasant reality is not necessarily the same as the deliberate desire to deceive. Finally, many people clearly have a macabre fascination with the dream or nightmare of National Socialist nuclear weapons winning World War II for Germany.​

After the war there was no totalitarian state or secret police to fear; after the war these scientists could speak their minds and tell the truth. The recorded conversations from Farm Hall demonstrate how these scientists reacted to the hard questions that followed the defeat of National Socialism. They spawned self-serving and self-deluding myths and legends which in time took on a life of their own. The unending debate over “Hitler’s bomb” is only the most prominent example.​

The myth of “Hitler’s bomb” tells us more about our current society than about events sixty seven years ago.​

 

[BritinBritain]

As a matter of interest, a few years ago a team of divers recovered a few of the heavy water drums from the sinking of the ferry SF Hydro on the Tinnsjøen. Hydrometer tests were carried out and found the heavy water to be 100% One of the other drums showed the heavy water had been contaminated by lake water.

The myth of “Hitler’s bomb” tells us more about our current society than about events sixty seven years ago.​

The Afrikaners are still going on and on about the Anglo Boer War and the British concentration camps 110 years later. I'm a very patient sort of chap but one certain Afrikaner kept going on and on about how his grandmother was in one of the camps. In the end I retorted, "Well we didn't do that good a F&^*ing job, because your here! Next time we'll do a better job!"

I haven't seen him since.

 

[tazjet]

To be perfectly honest every one of those "Facts" is meaningless without corroborating evidence, we have heard them all over the years from submarine and UFO factories in Antarctica to Hitler being alive and well in South America but much like death rays and atomic bombs wishful thinking does not a fact make.

In terms of atomic bombs I do not doubt Germany was working on one but in my opinion and without any actual verifiable documentation to the contrary is that it never got off the drawing board.

Ha-ha it is incredibly easy to verify. What is harder to explain is the extraordinary determination of some people to ignore facts. What always amazes me is how people who admit they know nothing on a topic have the strongest opinions.

Perhaps you should start by reading "Fusion: the search for endless energy," by Robin Herman, page 40[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Professor Steenbeck and Dr Rudenberg applied for the first patent DE 656378 on the 1st March 1933, issued 4 February 1938

Dr Adolf von Engel and Prof Max Steenbeck first wrote about this particle accelerator concept in 1934 in the publication Elektrische Gasentladungen.

A patent application was made by Swiss Nazi scientist Dr Walter Dallenbach for a particle accelerator which today we would call a spherical Tokamak on 12 March 1935. That patent number DE 665619 was granted 8 September 1938. Professor Max Steenbeck working under contact for Seimens with Dr Heinz Eiwald developed a prototype machine at Berlin Lichterfelde. It is recorded in Eiwald's notes and published research papers.

Dr Rolf Wideroe an acclaimed scientist who has worked on CERN wrote about the Seimens particle accelerator in his autobiography. Wideroe was one of those who personally removed the Seimens accelerator from Dresden and delivered it to Patton's Army at Burggrub. You can read about it from Wideroe's autobiography.

Another place you can read about the particle accelerator beam weapon surrendered to Patton at Burggrub is in the book "Science, Technology and National Socialism," a serious piece of research reading written by Monika Renneberg and Mark Walker, at page 266.

In 1943 Steenbeck breached security by publishing details in the science magazine Naturewissenschaften issue 19/20 (number 31) page 234. In English the title read "Acceleration of Electrons by Electric Vortex Fields." In that article Steenbeck mentions a "secret project at Seimens" for a machine built in 1935/36.

Prof Steenbeck applied on 7 March 1935 on behalf of Seimens for a particle accelerator Patent number DE 698867 which was published 6 December 1940. The same device was also granted an Austrian Patent number 153324.

Dallenbach built another particle accelerator machine at Bisingen specifically for transmuting Thorium into Protactinium for the Nazi A-bomb project. OSS files refer to interviewing an engineer named Nagglestein in Switzerland in November 1944 who disclosed the work of Prof Otto Hahn on Thorium at his laboratory in Tailfingen next to Bisingen. There is a detailed report with drawings of the Bisingen device by the engineer Carl Heinrich Florenz Muller (CHF Muller) who built it for Dallenbach which are on file in Switzerland at the ETH Library in Zurich. (entitled "Uber die Elektroneenerzeugung im Strahlentransformator" ETH Lib Hs903:47). Dallenbach's Patent can be found dated 1943 in G-209 of the so called Gouldsmitt Papers captured by ALSOS at Strassbourg University in late 1944.

OSS files also refer to Dallenbach's particle accelerator which Heisenberg called a Super Klystron. It was Heisenberg who recommended dallenbach to Speer and arranged backing from AEG for the project at Bisingen. For evidence of this MontyB I suggest you read evaluations by Oppenheimer of the Manhattan Project concerning the OSS report of November 1944 on Dallenbach's particle accelerator project which are held in NA RG77, MED Foreign Intelligence Unit, entry 22, box 166, folder 32.24

At Farm Hall in Allied captivity Dr Karl Wirtz was secretly recorded referring to the same device which could modulate it's frequency to the oscilation frequency of an atom. Farm Hall recordings were classified top secret until relatively recently.

Fact MontyB: you are wrong

I am unsure why you raise UFOs or factories in Antarctica as they do not relate to the topic under discussion and I have no belief in these things. Perhaps if you do you should enlighten us?

Fact: Nazi nuclear science was far more advanced than is given credit for and some people seem to feel rather threatened by the possibility.

 

[tazjet]

From 1942 to 1945 the german atomic program was an experimental low-funding program destined to investigate the possible use of reactors as power sources and, possibly, their viability to build an atomic bomb...in 5 or 6 years in the future (we're speaking about 1945 here). Thats why the german scientifics were absolutely stunned by the fact that the US already had a working A-bomb after Hiroshima.

There is a lot of literature about the German atomic program. Some of said literature seems to paint a view of a germany really nearing the completion of one or more atomic devices already by 1944. All of it speaks about covert investigation groups working out of the main atomic program, headed by Heisemberg.

None of them hold any truth. Not only all those books are -without exception- written by revisionists, there were no hidden atomic research groups in germany, it was impossible for Germany to hide a program of this scope. The ammount of funds, scientist, technicians, matherials, etc, needed for such an undertaking was impossible to hide.

The project which you refer to Der Alte is the widely known and poorly funded civil nuclear project under Heisenberg for the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute

The projects which I refer to are the ultra secret Project R of Heereswaffenamt convened in September 1939 which included Diebner, Schumann and Trinks.

Also the private research project of Professor Baron Manfred von Ardenne with funding from the Reichsforshungssanstalt (RFR) which largely dealt with developing particle accelerators.

and the SS project based from Vienna which took over both of these former projects from August 1944 after the 20 July 1944 bomb plot against Hitler.

Yes the scientists recorded at Farm Hall who were mostly from the Civil project under Heisenberg did react with shock and surprise at the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Diebner however who was part of the more secret military project kept very silent. he is recorded just before the nuclear bombing of Japan warning Heisenberg in a very low voice that their conversations at Farm Hall were being secretly bugged.

Heisenberg's reaction was to refute it and play up to the cameras. Heisenberg thereafter took every opportunity at Farm Hall to loudly distance himself from attempts to develop a Nazi A-bomb much to the irritation of his colleagues.

Incidentally, several scientist at Farm Hall made reference to project to obtain fissile Uranium from photo chemistry and I defy you Der Alte or anybody else to find me any reference in our history books to the Nazi photo-chemisty nuclear project.

You can't because it was hushed up and it's very existence remains denied to this day.

If you wish to cite Farm Hall to repudiate Nazi nuclear weapons then you should cite all of the conversations at Farm Hall and not just those which back your assumptions.

 

[tazjet]

There was a plan to have a dirty bomb and explode it over New York. This would have been in the form of an air burst releasing particles of radioactive material into the air to drift down into New York causing it to be abandoned. This was not an atomic bomb as we have come to know it, but more of a standard bomb but packed with radio active material

I would be interested to know your source.

Spreading Polonium from an He-177 bomber was just one concept advanced but since the He-177 lacked the range even one way to reach New York I suggest you are mistakenly confusing the dirty bomb proposal with plans to attack New York, of which there were several evolutions.

One was a Mistel aircraft piggy backed atop a French Flying boat

Later there came a proposal to launch Me-328 parasite fighters carried under the wings of a giant Ju-390 aircraft.

One proposal was for some D0-217K aircraft wo be towed like gliders out into the Atlantic by He-177 A5 aircraft from Norway, whose crews would ditch and be recovered by U-boats. Doenitz refused co-operation from his U-boats.

There was also a proposal concerning the use of giant Blohm und Voss flying boats.

The most amazing concerned the Sanger-Bredt sub orbital bomber.

Another first proposed in October 1940 before USA was even at war with germany was the A-9/A-10 two stage Amerika Rakete

A third proposal was the Trommsdorff D-6000 air launched ramjet cruise missile which could fly 5,300 nautical miles at mach 4.

Any dirty bomb proposal was only one of several no doubt. The diplomatic signal from Japan's embassy in Stockholm in late 1944 however was explicit in calling the Nazi nuclear weapon a bomb of devastating force.

[FONT=&quot]The classified top secret Japanese diplomatic signal "Stockholm to Tokyo:” No.232.9; December 1944 [War Department], National Archives, (records group) RG 457, declassified October 1, 1978[/FONT] read:

[FONT=&quot]The German atom-splitting device is the Neuman disintegrator. Enormous energy is directed into the central part of the atom and this generates an atomic pressure of several tens of thousands of tons per square inch. This device can split the relatively unstable atoms of such elements as uranium. Moreover, it brings into being a store of explosive atomic energy.... That is, a bomb deriving its force from the release of atomic energy [/FONT]

On 5 August 1944 Hitler himself told Roumania's Marshal Antonescu that his nuclear weapon was definitely a bomb.

Hitler told Antonescu he had:

[FONT=&quot]

...new explosives, whose development was already advanced to the experimental stage

[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Hitler confided his view that the jump from modern explosives to this one was the biggest since gunpowder. [/FONT]Hitler was also quoted saying:

[FONT=&quot]

These weapons, for example, have such colossal force that all human life is destroyed within three, or four kilometres of its point of impact.

[/FONT]

 

[tazjet]

Why is the myth of “Hitler’s bomb” so persistent?

This myth serves as a symbol for the apologia of the German scientific community. Since many Germans still wrestle uneasily with their ambivalent past, it should be no surprise that so do some German scientists, A considerable amount of Germanophobia undeniably still exists inside and outside of Germany.​

The wounds caused by World War II are still open. For historical reasons, Heisenberg and von Weizsacker have been singled out unfairly as scapegoats for the collaboration of scientists with National Socialism, ironically just as they had treated the followers of Deutsche Physik after the war.​

There also seems to be an irrational fascination with the thought of a conspiracy, and this fascination has taken two different forms. First, there are those who believe in Jungk’s 1956 conspiracy theory. Second, in stark opposition to Jungk, there are those who believe in another type of conspiracy, in particular that, after working wholeheartedly for Hitler, these German scientists now conspired to deceive the rest of the world into believing that they had resisted him.​

But there was no conspiracy, rather apologia, and the distinction is important. Unwillingness or inability to face an unpleasant reality is not necessarily the same as the deliberate desire to deceive. Finally, many people clearly have a macabre fascination with the dream or nightmare of National Socialist nuclear weapons winning World War II for Germany.​

After the war there was no totalitarian state or secret police to fear; after the war these scientists could speak their minds and tell the truth. The recorded conversations from Farm Hall demonstrate how these scientists reacted to the hard questions that followed the defeat of National Socialism. They spawned self-serving and self-deluding myths and legends which in time took on a life of their own. The unending debate over “Hitler’s bomb” is only the most prominent example.​

The myth of “Hitler’s bomb” tells us more about our current society than about events sixty seven years ago.​

Your thinking must make you dizzy?

A rationale for everything to avoid having to address and confront the facts.
Classical avoidance behaviour.

 

[Congreve502]

Thank you

 

[VDKMS]

There's a difference between doing research (inclusive small scale experiments) and having a production model. The Germans and propably other countries were working on it but only the US had a workable production model and used it.

In Japan a company is working on a space elevator, that does not mean they allready have one. The US is experimenting with hypersonic cruise missiles, that does not mean they allready have a production model. IBM is working on a quantum computer, that does not mean they have a production model.

Fact is, the Germans were working on the A-bomb but were far away from a production model.

 

[tazjet]

There's a difference between doing research (inclusive small scale experiments) and having a production model. The Germans and propably other countries were working on it but only the US had a workable production model and used it.

In Japan a company is working on a space elevator, that does not mean they allready have one. The US is experimenting with hypersonic cruise missiles, that does not mean they allready have a production model. IBM is working on a quantum computer, that does not mean they have a production model.

Fact is, the Germans were working on the A-bomb but were far away from a production model.

No that is not entirely correct. It was in fact used on the Russian front, but you are correct in the sense that it was not ready for intended delivery systems. These included the V-2 rocket and the V-3 which in this context was the Tromsdorff D-6000 mach 4, ramjet powered robot cruise missile.

The Trommsdorff D-6000 was a rival system to the A9/A10 Amerika Rakete. It used the Lorin Ramjet which was trialed in France atop a Dornier 217K

According to an intercepted Japanese PURPLE diplomatic message to Tokyo from the Japanese Consulate in Stockholm dated 12 December 1944, declassified in October 1978, it would appear at least one German nuke was dropped in June 1943 south of Kursk. The signal is referenced "Stockholm to Tokyo, No.232.9 December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457 .

The signal in six parts, states:

Part 1

This bomb is revolutionary in its results, and will completely upset all ordinary precepts of warfare hitherto established. I am sending you, in one group, all those reports on what is called the atom-splitting bomb. It is a fact that in June of 1943, the German Army tried out an utterly new type of weapon against the Russians at a location 150 kilometers southeast of Kursk. Although it was the entire 19th Infantry Regiment of the Russians which was thus attacked, only a few bombs (each round up to 5 kilograms) sufficed to utterly wipe them out to the last man.

and also:

Part 2.

The following is according to a statement by Lieutenant-Colonel UE [Ishiwara] KENJI, advisor to the attaché in Hungary and formerly in this country, who by chance saw the actual scene immediately after the above took place:

"All the men and the horses the explosion of the shells were
charred black and even their ammunition had all been detonated."

Moreover, it is a fact that the same type of war material was tried out in the Crimea, too. At that time the Russians claimed that this was poison-gas, and protested that if Germany were ever again to use it, Russia, too, would use poison-gas.

plus this:

Part 4.

The following are the facts I have learned regarding its technical data:

Recently the British authorities warned their people of the possibility that they might undergo attacks by German atom-splitting bombs. The American military authorities have likewise warned that the American east coast might be the area chosen for a blind attack by some sort of flying bomb. It was called the German V-3. To be specific, this device is based on the principle of the explosion of the nuclei of the atoms in heavy hydrogen derived from heavy water. (Germany has a large plant in the vicinity of Rjukan, Norway, which has from time to time been bombed by English planes.).

concluding with this:

Part 6.


... According to the English newspaper accounts, the German atom- splitting device is the NEUMAN disintegrator. Enormous energy is directed into the central part of the atom and this generates at atomic pressure of several tons of thousands of tons (sic) per square inch. This device can split the relatively unstable atoms of such elements as uranium. Moreover, it brings into being a store of explosive atomic energy. A-GENSHI HAKAI DAN. That is, a bomb deriving its force from the release of atomic energy.

This was a wartime encyphered signal which lay classified in US National
Archives for many decades after the War.

Yes indeed there were trials from 1942-1943

If one consults the National Archives in USA, in the 1943 Intelligence reports by Sam Woods to Cordell Hull (NA, RG 59) Woods Memorandum pp.18-19 detail a series of earthquakes in the Schwabian Alps near the Atomic Bomb laboratories at Bisingen on the 4th, 14th and 22nd July 1943 at 9 degrees east, 48.2 degrees North

I am not citing to you from some whoopey UFO website. I am citing from declassified US government archives which themselves contradict the official account of what happened in WW2.

 

[tazjet]

@ tazjet

tazjet stated:

Not correct... Hitler intended a massive counter offensive for October 1944 using huge stockpiles of Tabun-B nerve gas prepared at Dhyrenfurth in Silesia. These would be fired from artillery shells or as payload in V-1 buzz bombs against the west and the east.

from where do you have that information?

Source...The following book draws upon an OSS intelligence report from November 1944:

“Luftwaffe: the Allied Intelligence Files,”by Chris Staerck, Paul Sinnott, p.85 A special nerve gas version of the V-1 (Fi-103 D-1) designed to attack the U.S. was completed in 1944 at a factory in Breslau. "OSS Report A-44 316, report 5985 of 7 November 1944."

 

[Sammy142]

Germany was working on a dirty bomb to drop on New York. The core would have been high explosive and the rest of the bomb would have been made up with highly radio active material.

 

[tazjet]

Germany was working on a dirty bomb to drop on New York. The core would have been high explosive and the rest of the bomb would have been made up with highly radio active material.

It was not a dirty bomb. Read what the Japanese diplomatic signal said.

The following is according to a statement by Lieutenant-Colonel UE [ ISHIWARA ] KENJI, advisor to the attaché in Hungary and formerly in this country, who by chance saw the actual scene immediately after the above took place:

"All the men and the horses the explosion of the shells were
charred black and even their ammunition had all been detonated."

This following passage in particular refers to use of deuterium in the bomb making it a fusion boosted fission bomb.

To be specific, this device is based on the principle of the explosion of the nuclei of the atoms in heavy hydrogen derived from heavy water.

and this:

According to the English newspaper accounts, the German atom- splitting device is the NEUMAN disintegrator. Enormous energy is directed into the central part of the atom and this generates at atomic pressure of several tons of thousands of tons (sic) per square inch. This device can split the relatively unstable atoms of such elements as uranium. Moreover, it brings into being a store of explosive atomic energy. A-GENSHI HAKAI DAN. That is, a bomb deriving its force from the release of atomic energy.

It is not describing some piddly little detonation to disperse Polonium

 

[r.fox]

does anyone elses head hurt after reading that??