war for oil

C

chewie_nz

Banned
before you all jump off the deep end...


i am actually trying to debunk the "blood for oil" argument used by protesters over here. as you all know i was very much against the war in iraq, however i don't believe that this "blood for oil" argument stacks up.

whats the oil production for iraq (both now and the potential)

Vs

how much fuel is the US burning keeping an army running


can anybody help?
 
Chewie, I think this is a great idea because this is exactly what I've been trying to say about the whole thing.
Not just the oil coming out vs the oil being used in the war, but the sheer amount of money that goes into a military operation like this compared to the benefits of getting oil the hard way when it's so much easier and cheaper to do it by bribing Saddam Hussein and his buddies.
Basically guarantee his power as long as he supplies oil.

If this war was indeed about oil and some people were too optimistic about how things would go, then I'd say they got screwed and I'm glad they did because now all that's left to do is fight the good fight.
 
Fossil Fuels, it's the black blood that keeps the economy alive.

When it comes to the point where war is waged over resources, it is known that political figures forget that War is not a sporting event. It is not a game or a competition. There are no stories of protagonists or antagonists. No heroism or valor exists in battle. The only thing what's in these soldier's minds is to make sure their men are safe and sound. My grandfather who suffered World War II as a young teenager told me this very importance.

War is not what makes people great.
 
If you help free people from a group of thugs (which is what's going on now) that is the good fight.

What would happen in your neighborhood if the police gave up fighting the criminals in the "persuit of peace?" Does busting their butts with lousy hours, pretty modest pay and high risk make these police officers good men? Of course it does.

The whole "War For Oil" is just a blind blanket statement made by non-thinkers in general. There are those who think it through and hard and decide with some backable facts that it was about oil, but these are hard to find.
 
This thread has the potential to become very explosive. If, for any reason, things get out of control, the mods and I will be quick to lock it down.

Follow the rules, be respectful and this topic shall remain open.

SGT Doody
 
The people who espouse such an argument, in America at least, are apealing to the emotions their target. This argument plays on the emotional distaste for large companies in the wake of Enron. It seeks to demonise the Bush administration by linking it to another large company, Haliburton.

The facts arn't important for this argument, it thrives off of the emotional fear and distrust already latent in people about the potential abuse of power by the executive of America.
 
can anyone give me some figures

even if it is the fuel sconomy of a abrams tank times how many abrams in iraq


I NEED HARD NUMBERS!
 
Here's some

M-1Abrams:
"A tank will need approximately 300 gallons every eight hours; this will vary depending on mission, terrain, and weather. A single tank takes 10 minutes to refuel. Refueling and rearming of a tank platoon--four tanks--is approximately 30 minutes under ideal conditions. 0.6 miles per gallon.

60 gallons per hour when traveling cross-country
30+ gallons per hour while operating at a tactical ideal
10 gallons basic idle
A mine plow will increase the fuel consummation rate of a tank by 25 percent"
from globalsecurity.org

I don't know how many tanks though. I think someone with a US Army background will have a better idea on the organization structure of a US Armored unit.

Then again, what about combat jets and helicopters? Those are gas guzzlers too!



Here's something on Iraqi oil
"Iraq has 360 billion barrels of proven reserves, 12% of the world total. What makes Iraq a wealthy country is that the oil in the ground is an asset like money in the bank. Much of Iraq remains unexplored and ultimate reserves are expected to be a larger percentage. The Gulf region has 65% of the world’s proven oil reserves.
Iraq will be producing 6 million barrels of oil a day very soon, which is about 2 billion barrels per year. At $30 per barrel, that oil would sell for $60 billion per year. The population of Iraq is 24 million. That revenue translates into $2,500 per capita income per year. "
"http://www.auburn.edu/~thomph1/iraq.htm"

NOTE: Okay, it doesn't tell u about how much is coming out NOW but this could give u a decent idea at what the experts might have assumed would come out from Iraq. I don't know how good this source is... but if all of us go digging I'm sure we'll find out how valid these numbers are.



1 Barrel = 42 US gallons
"www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/ science/energy_calculator.html"


http://www.metrication.com/ <-- you can download a free measure converter/calculator here


Happy Hunting!
I hope more people contribute to this because this really is a worthy thing to look at. Hats off to you Chewie.
 
It will be hard to collect numbers for Iraq right now. Insurgents are currently attacking and disabling pipelines etc. So the amount of oil flucuates.
 
Yeah... so I thought maybe the estimate of the "ideal" could be something to shoot for. What if the politicians ASSUMED that all the oil would come out okay? Would it have still been economically reasonable to go to war for oil? If it checks out that it could, then there is a possibility. However, if it flunks even THIS, then the odds are stacked insanely heavily on the war being started for reasons OTHER than oil.
 
The US Government maintains a strategic reserve of crude so they do not have to depend on fuel output of any country. I don't know where it is or how much they have stockpiled and I don't think that can be found on Google but fuel from the supply has been used several times to bolster the amount in use in the USA.
 
Missileer said:
The US Government maintains a strategic reserve of crude so they do not have to depend on fuel output of any country. I don't know where it is or how much they have stockpiled and I don't think that can be found on Google but fuel from the supply has been used several times to bolster the amount in use in the USA.
Click to expand...

That was President Clinton's doing. He tapped the strategic reserves when gas prices were high in an effort to ease prices. President Bush has refused to follow Clinton's actions citing high gas prices is not enough to tap the reserves.

Here is a little history on the strategic oil reserves. The reserve was formed after the oil embargo in the 1970's for emergencies. I refuse to think high gas prices count as an emergency. According to MSN, the oil reserves were at 540 million barrels of oil when Bush took office in 2001. Now the reserve stands around 660 million barrels of oil. The democrats have said that we should not be adding to the reserve because of high prices. I love how everything is politics.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5015445
 
Re-War for Oil

I want to know for how long the world can let this oil price race continue without become furious and stop acting nice just out of pleasant kindness? As long as ppl pay or untill there are massive demonstrations where westerners just pull down their gov´s power statues and start to talk about war against them that increases the oil prices all the time just to punish and halt the democracys to spread? :? ;)

Doc.S
:viking:
 
Re-War for Oil

Whispering Death wrote:
When American gas prices hit $5 a gallon gas is going to become an issue that will dwarf abortion etc. in the political realm.
Click to expand...

Well let`s hope that those who actualy are trying to get the prices up to $5 gallon of gas starts to think about this. Because there is a great difference between simple citizens and smoth talking diplomats/politicians. When ppl are feed up of anti-war they soon go pro-war if you look at human history. Plesant kindness can turn against them faster then lightning. Just a note for the akrodha (freedom from anger). ;)

Doc.S
:viking:
 
Re: Re-War for Oil

Doc.S said:
I want to know for how long the world can let this oil price race continue without become furious and stop acting nice just out of pleasant kindness? As long as ppl pay or untill there are massive demonstrations where westerners just pull down their gov´s power statues and start to talk about war against them that increases the oil prices all the time just to punish and halt the democracys to spread? :? ;)

Doc.S
:viking:
Click to expand...

Umm I am not sure how to respond to this as I am not sure I understand your point, but it is not oil producers that really set the oil price it is the buyer, sure producers could dump oil on the market by increasing production but in the end we have to face the fact that at some point we have to find alternatives and high oil prices make work on those alternatives more appealing.

Basically oil producers dont want high oil prices as it makes alternatives and work on alternatives more viable.
 
Re-War for Oil

Please interpret that question as you want MontyB ;)

Let´s hope that there are alternatives on its way.... And soon.... There are talks at work that I think is improper to put up even on this board, ppl are growing impatient with this. Simple ppl dont give a crap in alternatives as long as they are as expensive and hard to get hold of as they are today.

They are turning from extrem left to the extrem right over here with force at the moment, and now I am talking about fathers with son´s and mothers with sons and daughters. People are used to have the freedom to take their car to drive from point A to B without have to worry about point C if needed. Gas over here is like food for others. 8)

Doc.S
:viking:
 
Re: Re-War for Oil

MontyB said:
Basically oil producers dont want high oil prices as it makes alternatives and work on alternatives more viable.
Click to expand...

I don't know about that. The cost of Oil is up over 100% in the last 2 years. The OPEC countries are sure making some serious money off that. Also companies that deal with oil and/or benefit from the price of oil are quite happy. My brother works for a company that deals with 80% of business gas cards here in the US. His company makes a percentage off every transaction. Higher gas prices=mo money!!!!!

One more thing, alternitive energy takes a lot of time to develop and even more time for society to buy into the idea. The world is going to be dependent on oil for a long time. Iceland is the exception. Thier government is planning to be oil free by 2050 (give or take). Go Iceland!!!!
 
Re: Re-War for Oil

Doody said:
MontyB said:
Basically oil producers dont want high oil prices as it makes alternatives and work on alternatives more viable.
Click to expand...

I don't know about that. The cost of Oil is up over 100% in the last 2 years. The OPEC countries are sure making some serious money off that. Also companies that deal with oil and/or benefit from the price of oil are quite happy. My brother works for a company that deals with 80% of business gas cards here in the US. His company makes a percentage off every transaction. Higher gas prices=mo money!!!!!

One more thing, alternitive energy takes a lot of time to develop and even more time for society to buy into the idea. The world is going to be dependent on oil for a long time. Iceland is the exception. Thier government is planning to be oil free by 2050 (give or take). Go Iceland!!!!
Click to expand...

Hehe go Iceland indeed.

Alternative fuels don't take that long to develope either there are several options in use already ie Methanol, Liquid Petroleum Gas, Compressed Natural Gas and the various Gasoline-Alcohol blends, which while not removing the dependency on oil do reduce it somewhat what seems to be required more than anything though is a commitment at government level.
------------------------------

Doc.S said:
Please interpret that question as you want MontyB ;)

Let´s hope that there are alternatives on its way.... And soon.... There are talks at work that I think is improper to put up even on this board, ppl are growing impatient with this. Simple ppl dont give a crap in alternatives as long as they are as expensive and hard to get hold of as they are today.

They are turning from extrem left to the extrem right over here with force at the moment, and now I am talking about fathers with son´s and mothers with sons and daughters. People are used to have the freedom to take their car to drive from point A to B without have to worry about point C if needed. Gas over here is like food for others. 8)

Doc.S
:viking:
Click to expand...

But thats just the point there is no incentive to develope alternatives until the existing technology also becomes expensive but you cant blame the oil producing countries for high prices as the price is set by what the consumer is prepared to pay.

mod edit: Do not post back to back. Use the edit button to add to an existing post.
 
Re-War for Oil

Well sir as I did say before, interpret that question as you want, common ppl do not see the the purchasers as the main threat to the extreme gasoline prices thats for sure, some ppl blame George Bush (big-city fokes), even more are sick and tired on all conflicts in the middle east, terrorism (country-side fokes) that seems to be a never ending story. I think that OPEC did show its muscles in the 70ths and that is something ppl seems to remember. IMHO I think oil buyers and oil producers need to turn on the big charm machine soon, because it seems not to work anymore with the "pride and we got it"- look. Wrong people can make use of such detest that is growing right now. :? :)

Doc.S
:viking:
 
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