MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I think that was just to shut you up.
Waffen SS (Moved from the mottos forum)
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I think that was just to shut you up.
Doppleganger
Active member
I guess my sarcasm was lost on you.
Simply put, I don't have the time nor the desire to indulge you in your rambling, angry rants. It seems as if you have to insult people who don't agree with your point of view. If I cared about this enough (which I don't) then I'd respond but quite frankly mate, I've better things to do with my time. I don't care enough about this subject. If you want to have a discussion about military operations in WW2 (especially the Eastern Front) then that's a different story.
Chukpike
Banned
Gee, you think? I guess we can't take him at his word.:lol:
I guess my sarcasm was lost on you.
I don't care enough about this subject. If you want to have a discussion about military operations in WW2 (especially the Eastern Front) then that's a different story.
No, you just want to strap on your SS uniform and strut around, admiring a group of people Loyal to a little corporal. You want to talk military operations, answer me this.
What were the chances of Germany winning WWII? When their leader had been a corporal in the army on the losing side in WWI? What were Germany's chances on the eastern front under the leadership they had? Certainly wasn't going to be brilliant tactics. Their egos told them they could accomplish what history told them they could not.
And MontyB, my first post was only my opinion of the Waffen SS. Then you demanded sources to prove it, which while I didn't need too, I obliged. You on the other hand have consistently refused to supply sources for things you said were "easily verifiable". You practice "The Big Lie", just as Hitler did.
You guys are just too funny, if it wasn't such a sad subject. I can just see you strutting around in your SS uniforms wearing women's high heeled boots and women's silk underwear.:drunkb:
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
While I realise you will just think you have won something by killing yet another thread through inane angry responses and pedantic arguments and I am really tossing a coin to decide whether I shouldn't bite the bullet and take the ban by telling you exactly what I think of your argument (not that it would matter given that the forum is down to half a dozen posts a week once the spammers are removed) but at the end of the day I agree entirely with Doppleganger in that I just don't care enough to want to carry on with this.
One thing I will say though, you should be very happy that the internet is a "reasonably" anonymous zone because comments like this "You guys are just too funny, if it wasn't such a sad subject. I can just see you strutting around in your SS uniforms wearing women's high heeled boots and women's silk underwear." would get you into a lot of problems otherwise.
One thing I will say though, you should be very happy that the internet is a "reasonably" anonymous zone because comments like this "You guys are just too funny, if it wasn't such a sad subject. I can just see you strutting around in your SS uniforms wearing women's high heeled boots and women's silk underwear." would get you into a lot of problems otherwise.
rattler
Active member
Chupike, with all due respect, get your head out of where you have it:
What Monty puts there is the TOE of the early SS (please NOTE: The SS was a NSDAP organisation, a *party* militia, nothing to do with the regular German forces Heer, Marine, Luftwaffe).
What he displayed is not a funny german cartoon, it is the organigramm of the early SS at the whole, and can be found in various sources, as btw in the "Bundesarchiv", the central data archive of the Federal Republic of Germany.
The links you posted as sources, otoh, show you do not understand the structure of the SS, as you referred to sub units, like e.g. the "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" (which were Hitlers Bodyguards basically, who proved their loyality ba killing the cupola af the SA in ´34 - "Nacht der langen Messer" as verband = group), some don´t even show: http://www.military-quotes.com/wiki/Sepp_Dietrich: "404 - Page not found The page /wiki/Sepp_Dietrich has been deleted or moved", etc.
Waffen-SS was a sub group and the combat arm of the overall organisation, not - as you assumed - at reverse. Your mentioned groups Totenkopf and Ordnungspolizei were just that until WWII, police (and took care of the concentration camps, e.g.), all "Verbände" incl Leibstandarte (= groups) were upped to Divisions in ´39 and then held 100k activists (they are not called soldiers, as they were not, they do not have veterans rights in post WWII Germany). They only entered the war actively in ´40, and on the west front, Leibstandarte was e.g. spearheading the invasion of the Netherlands, opconned to 227. Infanterie Division (after that got opconned to 19. Panzerkorps in France nd was the unit that made it deepest into France until French surrender).
In late 1940 the Waffen SS was formed, and included both the Leibstandarte Division and the "Verfügungstruppe" which was renamed as "Reich" Division, only in late 1941 (for Barbarossa) it was completed and reorganized in total, details here: Wendal, Marcus, Axis History: http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=50.
Details
(in German): http://openlibrary.org/b/OL5586925M/Verba%CC%88nde_und_Truppen_der_deutschen_Wehrmacht_und_Waffen_SS_im_Zweiten_Weltkrieg_1939-1945
(in English): http://waffen-ss.com/page.php?page=100
Ouch, take my home town, Oct 22. ´43, 60.000 civilians deliberately killed by 9k tons of incendary bombs in 48 hours, when I was a kid I still had to play in ruins 1960:
Take Dresden 300.000+ in one night), Köln, Düsseldorf, Pforzheim, Mainz: A total of 1.2 Millions of innocent (as innocent as a civilian could be in those times) mostly women and children killed by Mr. Harris´pilots, and deliberately so as a war strategy. It is only that he and the other Allied war criminals never had to face trial.
Who is delusional here?
Forgive and forget all fine, but get real please.
The question seems to be rather: Why do *you* not want to find/see them?
Rattler
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Chukpike
Banned
To bad you jump in at the end and don't read the posts from the beginning or even follow the Original Topic. Or you would know that I stated in the second post of this topic:
"Also their loyalty was to Hitler and not the country. I guess if you are into fanatical dictators you could appreciate the motto"
Since you wish to enlighten me, where you say *party* militia that would be Nazi Party?
Thank you for showing my post, the second in this topic is correct.
Waffen SS units did spend time murdering unarmed prisoners.
Waffen SS were "party" militia and not part of the regular forces.
"Many Waffen-SS members and units were responsible for war crimes. For members who did not take part in them, they had to face the fact there was a "guilt by association" that attached. After the war the Schutzstaffel organisation as a whole was held to be a criminal organization by the post-war German government, due to the undeniable evidence that it was responsible for serious war crimes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#World_War_II
"The Le Paradis massacre was a war crime committed by members of the 14th Company, SS Division Totenkopf, under the command of HauptsturmführerFritz Knöchlein. It took place on 27 May 1940, during the Battle of France, at a time when the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) was attempting to retreat through the Pas-de-Calais region during the Battle of Dunkirk.
Soldiers of the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Norfolk Regiment, had become isolated from their regiment. They occupied and defended a farmhouse against an attack by Waffen-SS forces in the village of Le Paradis. After running out of ammunition, the defenders surrendered to the German troops. The Germans led them across the road to a wall, and machine-gunned them. Ninety-seven British troops died. Two survived, with injuries, and hid until they were captured by German forces several days later.
After the war, Fritz Knöchlein was located, tried and convicted by a war crimes court, with the two survivors acting as witnesses against him. For his part in the massacre, Knöchlein was executed in 1949."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Paradis_massacre
The rest of the statements through out this thread about possible Allied atrocities are irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the topic.
The attempts to change the subject from the Waffen SS to the allies is a favorite tactic of deniers.
Implications that what the Waffen SS did was OK because they were not directly involved in the Holocaust, or because others were doing it, is just not acceptable.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Because he is by Winston Churchill's definition a fanatic... A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
Chukpike
Banned
You certainly don't have that problem as you having been trying to change the subject from the original topic since the beginning.:shoothea:
I know you do not think the forum rules apply to you.
Like rules about supplying sources when requested.
Or, staying on topic. Unfortunately not changing the subject is one of the rules.
How would you like me to change my mind?
Make a statement that the Nazis were just misunderstood?
The Waffen SS was a World Class Boys Choir?
How would you like me to be brainwashed?
Not believe theSchutzstaffel (SS) organization as a whole was held to be a criminal organization by the post-war German government.
Fortunately the Allies won and I live in a country that allows me to express my opinion and to think for myself. :brave:
I don't have to march lock step with what others think.
Doppleganger
Active member
Are you suffering from some kind of mental illness?
For once,the Ardeatine massacre had nothing to do with the WSS:it was a normal German reprisal after the killing of 32 Germans by the resistance (the policy of the Wehrmacht was 10 civilians for 1 dead German ).
If I remember,the killings at Krajugevac,were the work of Wehrmacht (non WSS ) units .
Ollie Garchy
Active member
Watch and listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD-jTZdypPE
I love all those who gave their lives in pursuit of a better cause.
If you think that the cause was wrong, ask yourself how your life has improved since knowing that the Germans lost. Then ask yourself how the Chinese domination of the American financial system is to your benefit. Then ask yourself how often the American politicians have worked wonders for you and your life.
If your are honest, you will accept the sad fact that the governments of the West do not share any responsibility for the people.
We had our chance...it died with Hitler...
Ollie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD-jTZdypPE
I love all those who gave their lives in pursuit of a better cause.
If you think that the cause was wrong, ask yourself how your life has improved since knowing that the Germans lost. Then ask yourself how the Chinese domination of the American financial system is to your benefit. Then ask yourself how often the American politicians have worked wonders for you and your life.
If your are honest, you will accept the sad fact that the governments of the West do not share any responsibility for the people.
We had our chance...it died with Hitler...
Ollie
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I think you are jumping the gun a bit here because I am pretty sure there are few people outside Germany that believe their lives would have been better had you won.
rattler
Active member
And inside neither more than a few. The name of the poster suggests he is one of them, guys who wold prefer oligarchy to democracy.
Rattler
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I advise you to look on a telephone-directory :you can find a lot of psychiatrists
.I have seen a lot of stupidities,but you have won the first price
Cdt Matteo
Active member
Chukpike, as much as you hate the fact that the Waffen SS were a superior fighting force does not take away from its truth. They committed war crimes as all nations did at the time. What they stood for was rather honourable if you ask me: Loyalty, Honour, Valor.
They were professional soldiers and the reason they are considered "war criminals" is because history is written by the victors. The reason why the Allied nations were never charged with war crimes is for the same reason as above. Don't try to respond with another insult because it will only further your immaturity. There is room for a civilized debate and not for anything else.
They were professional soldiers and the reason they are considered "war criminals" is because history is written by the victors. The reason why the Allied nations were never charged with war crimes is for the same reason as above. Don't try to respond with another insult because it will only further your immaturity. There is room for a civilized debate and not for anything else.
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I have one objection:that the WSS were a SUPERIOR fighting force.
Maybe it goes for the initial WSS divisions:LSAH,Das Reich,Totenkopf and only till 1944,but tha later WSS units were not better than the divisions of the Army,and some (Handschar,the Ukrainians ..) were even worse .
I expect some will reply with the Hitlerjugend at Caen. Yes,they were fighting fanatically,but were defeated.
If fighting fanatically =a superior fighting,then the Japanese should be condidered as THE superior fighting force,they WERE fighting to the last man .
Cdt Matteo
Active member
Very good point and thank you for clarifying. Like all things towards the end of the war (on the German side), things deterioated. The 'top' SS division (Leibstandarte, Das Reich, etc) were very well trained, very motivated and were generally well equipped (not so much in early war when under the command of the Heer).
About the 12th SS, lets not forget they were thrown together in a short period of time and did much more than what the Allies expected a bunch of teenagers to do (led by Ostfront veterans). They may not have been as well trained and 'elite' as the, for example, Leibstandarte, but they performed amazing for what they had.
About the 12th SS, lets not forget they were thrown together in a short period of time and did much more than what the Allies expected a bunch of teenagers to do (led by Ostfront veterans). They may not have been as well trained and 'elite' as the, for example, Leibstandarte, but they performed amazing for what they had.
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