USSR v Western Allies circa 1945 - who would win and why?

[Doppleganger]

Hi

As long as modern wars are actually contests of economies, then this wouldn't be a fair fight.


Sometime back someone asked how the allied forces took almost a year from June 6th until late spring 1945 to beat the Nazis, and yet I predicted the rout and annihilation of the Red Army in Europe in a much shorter time frame.

The difference is that the Nazis were on defense. The Red Army, since it is the aggressor force, would need to be on the move, and thus , vulnerable to death from the air. Then, there is the very long supply lines, which are even more vulnerable.

Not a fair fight at all.

Sun Tzu once said; "Know your enemy and know yourself and you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles." Truth is, you just don't know your enemy well enough in this scenario. You are extraordinarily dismissive of the armed forces that bled the Wehrmacht white and overly confident of the armed forces that only faced about 20% of said force. Although I agree with much of what you say, it's sometimes couched in ridiculous rhetoric that John Rambo would be proud of.

 

[godofthunder9010]

I think we agree that economics would rule the day and that it ultimately leads to victory for the Wester Powers. The problem with comparing it to Nazi Germany is:
1.) The USSR had a much more productive economy than Nazi Germany
2.) The USSR had much larger forces, and a LOT more tanks and artillery and combat aircraft than Germany ever did.

Much would depend on how helpful Germany could be to the West. I don't think it makes sense to say that the West would have it easy in such a conflict. That's a pretty severe underestimation of how strong the Soviets were in 1945.

 

[lght1]

hi


I am very dismissive of a socialistic command economy, that by its very nature, cannot hope to compete against that economic dynamo, known as the USA.

All the admirers of this long dead entity known as the USSR should remember that it faced a lone enemy in Nazi Germany, and that enemy couldnt touch its means of production.

The USA on the other hand, could and most certainly would have.

In all reality, your champion would have died four decades earlier than it actually did had it tried such a venture then.

I wonder how Nazi Germany would have fared against the so called mighty USSR, if the following conditions were met:

1. Germany only had to face the USSR. There would be no other
theatres of operations for her. There would be no need to
maintain garrison troops in the west, nor provide manpower
for any adventures in the Balkans, or Africa. Also, no need
for a large navy.

2. The Luftwaffe had aircraft equal to the P-51, P-47, Spitfire,
Typhoon, B-29 and B-36. These planes would be available
in ample numbers.

3. Germany's atomic program was on the same level of
development as the USA's

4. Hitler let the General Staff manage the campaign, thus it
would be a professionally managed affair.


With all these present, do you still like Moscows chances?

A war with the Allies, would have cost the USSR its last 40 years of life.

Perhaps thats the real reason they never attempted it.

 

[Doppleganger]

hi


I am very dismissive of a socialistic command economy, that by its very nature, cannot hope to compete against that economic dynamo, known as the USA.

All the admirers of this long dead entity known as the USSR should remember that it faced a lone enemy in Nazi Germany, and that enemy couldnt touch its means of production.

The USA on the other hand, could and most certainly would have.

In all reality, your champion would have died four decades earlier than it actually did had it tried such a venture then.

I wonder how Nazi Germany would have fared against the so called mighty USSR, if the following conditions were met:

1. Germany only had to face the USSR. There would be no other
theatres of operations for her. There would be no need to
maintain garrison troops in the west, nor provide manpower
for any adventures in the Balkans, or Africa. Also, no need
for a large navy.

2. The Luftwaffe had aircraft equal to the P-51, P-47, Spitfire,
Typhoon, B-29 and B-36. These planes would be available
in ample numbers.

3. Germany's atomic program was on the same level of
development as the USA's

4. Hitler let the General Staff manage the campaign, thus it
would be a professionally managed affair.


With all these present, do you still like Moscows chances?

A war with the Allies, would have cost the USSR its last 40 years of life.

Perhaps thats the real reason they never attempted it.

I wouldn't fancy any nation in the world's chances against that Nazi Germany, including the USA. In fact, only Option 4 of your choices had to be present for Germany to defeat the USSR. With the correct choices made by Hitler and OKH, the USSR would have toppled in 1941/42. One thing to bear in mind though is that the Red Army of 1941 was vastly different from that of 1945.

Let me put it this way. Off topic but what do you think would have been the outcome for D-Day had the Western Allies faced the entire German Wehrmacht instead of about 25% of it?

Anyway, it's not the political apparatus I have any kind of admiration for. What I do know is that the Red Army bludgeoned and clubbed back to Berlin an albeit quite weakened Wehrmacht and that they deserve big kudos for coming back from the brink of destruction. You're right that the USSR would have been dismantled in 1945 if they had attacked the Western Allies but this would have been achieved primarily through the application of nukes.

 

[Anya1982]

oh no

Ok now after reading all that i have a headache!!!!

USSR are a big territory and back then was a little smaller.........theyhad more urban warfare under their belt than USA.weapons wise? don't know enough to comment but USSR were as cruel as the nazi's so i wouldn't rule out that USSR couldn't of beaten USA. Maybe they might of weakened as during ww2 USA were the country with the money.
Cutting off USSR fuel supplies wouldn't do any good i'd say put em out for a few days, but they must of had a back up plan incase that happened?

Well thats my thought anyways, but who am i to say...........woman and all lol maybe i'll get maggie thatchers opinion lol

 

[lght1]

Hi

The USSR, compared to the massive strategic and tactical forces arrayed against her, would find a very different situation than that of the war just concluded.

For the USSR, this would be a war of vastly unequal proportions. The ability to strike with virtual impunity, deny her the ability resupply, and later, even the means of production, transport and to even feed herself would mean that ultimately, the world of the 1950s would be denied the pleasure of socialism.

Remember, that just as acutually happened in 1991, no land invasion need occur for the slave state known as the USSR to collapse.

 

[Darcia]

Just a reminder Europe was in peices so they would have been a weight no matter what they decided to do or who to fight with. They couldn't defend themselves agianst Hitler much less of the Almighty,Americn,British,andRussian forces started carvingout strongholds.

 

[lght1]

Hi

Perhaps, but remember that the Allies had hundreds of thousands of captured Germans which would be a source of trained professional manpower which could be tapped to help contain and then starve out the very flower of Soviet manhood.

Also, since the US population was/is greater than what the USSR had, further conscription would also swell the ranks of the US Army as time went on.

By 1944, the US was actually slowing the rate of new inductees as it felt it had enough men, so there was plenty of room to grow.

 

[Doppleganger]

Hi

Perhaps, but remember that the Allies had hundreds of thousands of captured Germans which would be a source of trained professional manpower which could be tapped to help contain and then starve out the very flower of Soviet manhood.

Also, since the US population was/is greater than what the USSR had, further conscription would also swell the ranks of the US Army as time went on.

By 1944, the US was actually slowing the rate of new inductees as it felt it had enough men, so there was plenty of room to grow.

Most of the German PoWs captured by the Western Allies were not as highly trained as the men who had served either on the Ostfront or earlier on in the war. The quality of the German Wehrmacht that faced the Western Allies was someway down on the quality in 1941 or 1942, and even then, most of the best units were assigned to the East. Even units like SS Panzer and elite Panzer divisions like Panzer Lehr were in many cases elite in name only. Much of their manpower only had 3 months training at best compared to the 12 months training for the average GI. Some of the units only had 1 weeks training. Much of the German Army that faced the Western Allies was made up of underage and overage recruits and ex Kriegsmarine, Police and Luftwaffe men. The best German troops perished in the East or were captured by the Red Army.

So, the USSR were more likely to have in captivity the best and most able German troops than the Western Allies were. You might want to read this link to get an understanding of this. It's very long but well worth reading.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/armies/default.aspx

 

[lght1]

Hi

I disagree.

With some 250,000 ex-Afrika Korps soldiers and concluding with Model's pocket in '45, there was ample quantity and quantity to supplement Allied manpower.

While the USSR captured hordes of German troops, mistreatment would have more than offset any quatative advantage the ost army may have had.

 

[Doppleganger]

Hi

I disagree.

With some 250,000 ex-Afrika Korps soldiers and concluding with Model's pocket in '45, there was ample quantity and quantity to supplement Allied manpower.

While the USSR captured hordes of German troops, mistreatment would have more than offset any quatative advantage the ost army may have had.

Hello. Let's see some proof to back up this claim of the 'quality' of captured German troops by the West. if you read the link I provided, which is backed up by respected sources, you'll see that on average the quality of the Wehrmacht in 1944 on the Western Front was quite a bit lower than it had been in 1941. Anyway, the Deutsch Afrikakorps were not the cream of the Wehrmacht by any stretch of the imagination.

How would mistreatment by the USSR have offset the quality of their captured POWs? If these troops were promised that they would be reunited with the Fatherland and a chance to see their homes and families again I think they would fight and fight hard. I mean, wouldn't you if you were made that promise?

 

[Damien435]

Hello. Let's see some proof to back up this claim of the 'quality' of captured German troops by the West. if you read the link I provided, which is backed up by respected sources, you'll see that on average the quality of the Wehrmacht in 1944 on the Western Front was quite a bit lower than it had been in 1941. Anyway, the Deutsch Afrikakorps were not the cream of the Wehrmacht by any stretch of the imagination.

How would mistreatment by the USSR have offset the quality of their captured POWs? If these troops were promised that they would be reunited with the Fatherland and a chance to see their homes and families again I think they would fight and fight hard. I mean, wouldn't you if you were made that promise?

But the Germans would not believe such lies, which is what they would be, Stalin would never let them fight for the USSR, he would just keep sending the POW's out to cut more firewood, eat a diet not much better than the concentration camps, and after dying they were trown into trenches, not even buried, and left to freeze in the middle of a Russian winter.

 

[Doppleganger]

Hello. Let's see some proof to back up this claim of the 'quality' of captured German troops by the West. if you read the link I provided, which is backed up by respected sources, you'll see that on average the quality of the Wehrmacht in 1944 on the Western Front was quite a bit lower than it had been in 1941. Anyway, the Deutsch Afrikakorps were not the cream of the Wehrmacht by any stretch of the imagination.

How would mistreatment by the USSR have offset the quality of their captured POWs? If these troops were promised that they would be reunited with the Fatherland and a chance to see their homes and families again I think they would fight and fight hard. I mean, wouldn't you if you were made that promise?

But the Germans would not believe such lies, which is what they would be, Stalin would never let them fight for the USSR, he would just keep sending the POW's out to cut more firewood, eat a diet not much better than the concentration camps, and after dying they were trown into trenches, not even buried, and left to freeze in the middle of a Russian winter.

Who knows you might be right, but the point I'm making is that they had the better quality POWs. They wouldn't be fighting for the USSR in their eyes anyway - they'd be fighting for Germany albeit a Soviet dominated one.

 

[godofthunder9010]

I doubt the German POW's held by the USSR (those that hadn't been shot, starved or otherwise killed) would have been very willing to fight for the USSR. Very unlikely. Conversely, Russians would trust those Germans available to them ... about as much as I trust a rattlesnake enough to stuff it down my pants. The commanders held by each side would be pretty big. Many, many of the best and brightest ran for W Germany to surrender to the Western Allies, not trusting the tender mercies of the Soviets (who had very strong reason for wanting revenge). But ultimately, I don't know who ended up with the best. If memory serves, Guderian was initially held by Russia, but I don't remember for sure. I might have to look it up, don't remember ...

 

[Doppleganger]

I doubt the German POW's held by the USSR (those that hadn't been shot, starved or otherwise killed) would have been very willing to fight for the USSR. Very unlikely. Conversely, Russians would trust those Germans available to them ... about as much as I trust a rattlesnake enough to stuff it down my pants. The commanders held by each side would be pretty big. Many, many of the best and brightest ran for W Germany to surrender to the Western Allies, not trusting the tender mercies of the Soviets (who had very strong reason for wanting revenge). But ultimately, I don't know who ended up with the best. If memory serves, Guderian was initially held by Russia, but I don't remember for sure. I might have to look it up, don't remember ...

I think this thread is getting sidetracked. The point I was making was that the German prisoner pool held by the Western Allies was not of the highest quality. Let's leave it at that.

Guderian surrendered to US Army units in May 1945. The Soviets wanted him for war crimes but the US authorities refused to hand him over.

 

[lght1]

Hi


"How would mistreatment by the USSR have offset the quality of their captured POWs?"

Thats a nonsensical question. The fact that German POWs were starved in some cases, to death, denied any type of medical care, and worked to extinction flies in the face of your question.

Another funny speculation, is your feelings that the German POWs would somehow fight for a "Sovietized" Germany. Had the USSR been so foolish to arm these troops in such a conflict, they would have soon found them selves facing another internal conflict as well as dealing with joint Allied and Wehrmacht forces in Europe.

As for quality of one group of POWS over another, its sort of a moot point as the Allies would control the air, and thus any attempt at relieving trapped Soviets in Europe, would be quite out of the question.

BTW, the Afrika Korps was a fine collection of divisions led by one of Germany's more able commanders, and had they, along with the over strength garrisons of Norway, Italy, and France been used against the Red Army, I doubt the USSR would have survived long enough to have gotten into trouble in out scenario.

 

[Darcia]

The Germans in 1945 weren't the Germans in 1939. By 1945 all f the germans were in trouble and they could not keep a good force up.

 

[lght1]

Hi

The Germans that were in Allied captivity were quite capable at providing assistance in the task at hand.

 

[Darcia]

Germany as a nation where bombed and startved, they wouldn't prove much help to the allies since they had also lost most of thier labor when the Camps where freed.

 

[lght1]

Hi

We wouldnt be needing the productive powers of the Ruhr, as the USA was the mightiest industrial power the world had ever seen.

The POW's were not starved, and would be properly motivated in helping to deal Soviet forces a deathblow.