USS Liberty - Israel's "War of Self Defense"

EladBell said:
you forgot about the massacre in Sudan,the war in afghanistan,the war in Iraq,oh and the great flood.
all us.
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I don't need to make childish statements to back me up, the simple documented truth is enough.

viewer said:
like what? the worst confrontation i can remember was the cuban crysis. and even then USA didn't attack russian ally directly....
P.S i take responsibility for the great flood :<
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That just proves how little you know of things that were going on during the Cold War. Just ask a few of the old "Cold war warriors" on this forum and see if they disagree with me.

Kennedy called the Russians bluff knowing full well that there were dozens of things happening on an almost daily basis, that although they were never publicised were potentially as delicate as the Cuban crisis. Many, or more likely almost all of them had the potential to trigger Russian retaliation if things went awry.

So, I think we can leave the possibility of Russian involvement right out of this debate.
 
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what documante?i heard from a friend of a friend who was a cousin of a man who treated the little sister at the hospital,for all we know.
so a mna said it was a well planed mistake,so what? Chernovill was a mistake to,but lets see,there was an Israeli man in that city on that day,he must be a spy and he caused the explosion of the reactor!.

there are so many documates,there are documants for weapons of mass destrucation in Iraq,has anyone ever found that?
you exuse a littl country with so many friends of been most hostile,now even a manaic wouldnt do what you suggest Israel has done.
think clearly,we are but mere civilians/soldiers when we reach the higher levels of the country and Goverment then you would see how wrong we are,on every aspect we try to examin,I assure you that.
 
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Those documents quoted in my previous posts, which obviously you are not reading.

What has Chernobyl to do with this debate? What the Russians do, and say has no bearing on this thread whatsoever.

Stupidity is no excuse, and from the documentation that I have quoted, it appears that persons who were a lot closer to the action than you or I, agree with my assumptions, or more to the point, I agree with them. Israel has been caught out doing similar things before (quoted in my previous posts) so obviously your argument does not hold water Your own members of Mossad have confirmed Israel's involvement in these things. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/deception.html?q=deception.html
This was all originally quoted and supported by the USA's highest legal council involved in this investigation. I'll believe him before I'll believe you. He was there, and heard all the available evidence, whereas you are just making wild uninformed guesses as to what happened. Unless of course you were involved,.... sorry, you weren't even born were you?

 
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EladBell said:
the war was over after 6 days and 5 nation's armies where desroyed,i waoul;d call this a victory meanning Israel WON,u talk about the aftermath and indded there are great consiquinces for the war,but fact is that 2 out of the closest nations to Israel are in peace with Israel now,becasue of that war.
now if we speak about the attack,something that the great USA tries to cover up will not be discovered soon,get used to it,if it was a mistake we all are human,if it was not then i bet each side has its own reason to cover this up,diggin in the history is not a wise thing,look forward to your future,learn from your past,but dont live it.
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Umm at this point I would like to point out the title of this forum "Modern Military History", it is really hard to stay within the bounds of the forum without discussing, analysing and to some degree reliving the past.
 
I don't find that overly surprising, few people can set aside national ties to discuss their performance objectively.

I am sure you would get similar responses if you were to talk of the the plight of Aborigines, Maori or the American Indian, or as the old statement goes "many can dish it out few can take it".
 
senojekips said:
Those documents quoted in my previous posts, which obviously you are not reading.

What has Chernobyl to do with this debate? What the Russians do, and say has no bearing on this thread whatsoever.

Stupidity is no excuse, and from the documentation that I have quoted, it appears that persons who were a lot closer to the action than you or I, agree with my assumptions, or more to the point, I agree with them. Israel has been caught out doing similar things before (quoted in my previous posts) so obviously your argument does not hold water Your own members of Mossad have confirmed Israel's involvement in these things. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/deception.html?q=deception.html
This was all originally quoted and supported by the USA's highest legal council involved in this investigation. I'll believe him before I'll believe you. He was there, and heard all the available evidence, whereas you are just making wild uninformed guesses as to what happened. Unless of course you were involved,.... sorry, you weren't even born were you?
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as i told you before,these documantes can be found and can be read and be be written,but that dosent make them the truth.
morevoer ofcourse Chernobyl has to do with this,this was aso a mistake,for he russians that are not afraid of the world and still in the early days hey were trying to cover this up.
now if we were not there,and yes i was not born then,actually my father was a 2 year old,but we know our country and history,yes Israel has done few unapropriate things,stilling navy ships,killing men through out europe,but you have to remember that in a place like this,where every word can escelite the situaion to a new war,these things are crucial for SELF DEFENSE,so if the Goverment found it a good decesion to bomb a USS then i guess it had its own reason,dont get me wrong i do not justifie this but try to imigne your elf sorroned by 4 hostile countries with far larger army than yours and keep your self sain.
beside,and this is a wild assumption because i have no cle whether im right or not,you tell me.
Israel was only 19 years old when the war broke out,can the great USA beocme a very close ally with a little unimportant country in the middle east who has not pproven a thing till the 1967 war?
again this is only a guess,it just dosent sound likly
 
EladBell said:
as i told you before,these documantes can be found and can be read and be be written,but that dosent make them the truth
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So, you are insinuating that the US investigation into this affair was all lies, and that their senior legal council is a liar?

Personally I don't think that is likely, I know that there are cover ups that happen, but in this case with what i have read it seems that the US case is the more credible.

All evidence is based on documentation, if what you are saying were true, there would be no point in having an investigation, or for that matter a legal system, we would all just decline into anarchy.

The problem is that both sides present a vastly different story, so it comes down to physical evidence.

No one can realistically deny that the Israelis were not aware they were attacking a US Naval vessel
(a) photos taken from the ship show that the attacking fighters were low enough to visually identify the vessel, they could see it's pennant number, the fact that it was painted as a Naval vessel, and indeed see the flags.
(b) The Israeli command were aware of it's presence in the area by their own admission.
(c) Israeli pilots have verified that they informed their command that it was in fact a US Naval vessel, but they were ordered to continue the attack, a pilot who refused and returned to his base was arrested upon landing.

There is much more, but it is pointless me typing it all out if people are merely going to refute the known facts.

Only an imbecile would say that there is no case to answer. I know what I believe and also what many US servicemen believe especially those who were directly involved.

That is where I will leave it, you can say what you like, you will not convince me that the Israelis were not trying to drag the US into their war as an active participant.
 
senojekips said:
So, you are insinuating that the US investigation into this affair was all lies, and that their senior legal council is a liar?

Personally I don't think that is likely, I know that there are cover ups that happen, but in this case with what i have read it seems that the US case is the more credible.

All evidence is based on documentation, if what you are saying were true, there would be no point in having an investigation, or for that matter a legal system, we would all just decline into anarchy.

The problem is that both sides present a vastly different story, so it comes down to physical evidence.

No one can realistically deny that the Israelis were not aware they were attacking a US Naval vessel
(a) photos taken from the ship show that the attacking fighters were low enough to visually identify the vessel, they could see it's pennant number, the fact that it was painted as a Naval vessel, and indeed see the flags.
(b) The Israeli command were aware of it's presence in the area by their own admission.
(c) Israeli pilots have verified that they informed their command that it was in fact a US Naval vessel, but they were ordered to continue the attack, a pilot who refused and returned to his base was arrested upon landing.

There is much more, but it is pointless me typing it all out if people are merely going to refute the known facts.

Only an imbecile would say that there is no case to answer. I know what I believe and also what many US servicemen believe especially those who were directly involved.

That is where I will leave it, you can say what you like, you will not convince me that the Israelis were not trying to drag the US into their war as an active participant.
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Well here is a short video of the event by those who were actually there...

USS Liberty:Liberty Under Fire
 
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once more,i never said that.
i never said there were not Israeli jets
i never said they never knew about that
i never said i dont a gree with you.

but,again,there are pepole out tthere that are has far better knoloadge of those things than you and me,if im 18 it dosent say i dont now whats going on.
let those who KNOW(from facts,actuall facts not pyshical evidneses(you can call a nuke expiriment physical evidence))
if the russian said they would join the war,then its quit obvious that Israel would want to drag the US to its defense,and if deception is they way,then so be it,a country would kill thousedends of innocents men only to keep its civilians safe,UK,USA,Russia and the list goes on and on.
 
from those photos these jets seems like MIGS,now im not an air man,so i cant recognize them but i think that Israel had Mirages then,and these photos have MIGs on them.
maybe im mistaking.
 
EladBell said:
from those photos these jets seems like MIGS,now im not an air man,so i cant recognize them but i think that Israel had Mirages then,and these photos have MIGs on them.
maybe im mistaking.
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Men better qualified than yourself could not see Migs. Anyway, what would the Israeli Airforce be doing with Migs, you forget, Israeli pilots did admit that they attacked the Liberty, so I don't think that they are Migs.

Nice try....
 
senojekips said:
I don't need to make childish statements to back me up, the simple documented truth is enough.

That just proves how little you know of things that were going on during the Cold War. Just ask a few of the old "Cold war warriors" on this forum and see if they disagree with me.

Kennedy called the Russians bluff knowing full well that there were dozens of things happening on an almost daily basis, that although they were never publicised were potentially as delicate as the Cuban crisis. Many, or more likely almost all of them had the potential to trigger Russian retaliation if things went awry.

So, I think we can leave the possibility of Russian involvement right out of this debate.
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i don't think we should leave this possibility, unless you became forum mod or something :)
one thing is loosing ground to USA in some covert ops and other local conflicts which the news over the world never show. it's totally another thing to get humiliated when one of your leading allies in the middle east is being attacked by your worst enemy, hint:think about the warshaw pact that russia had to preserve and how her "volunteered" allies would look on their pact if russia won't retaliate.

and i never denied liberty was attacked by israeli air force, i just think " to drag USA into the war " is the funniest reason i ever heared (reminds me of the holocaust in gaza strip :) )
 
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But we are still left with the question of why.

Incidentally people keep attributing this attack solely to the air force but lets remember they were also attacked by naval vessels as well.
 
viewer said:
and i never denied liberty was attacked by israeli air force, i just think " to drag USA into the war " is the funniest reason i ever heared (reminds me of the holocaust in gaza strip :) )
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Well, I think it's time you started laughing.

There's an old Irish saying about accepting the obvious.

If one man says you look like a horse, punch him in the nose.
If a second man says it, call him an ass, and start to wonder.
But when you're told for the third time, it's time to buy yourself a bale of hay.

About Gaza, it's a funny thing that 9/10 of the western world can see the similarities, all it lacks is scale, and some German attention to fine detail.
 
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senojekips said:
Well, I think it's time you started laughing.

There's an old Irish saying about accepting the obvious.

If one man says you look like a horse, punch him in the nose.
If a second man says it, call him an ass, and start to wonder.
But when you're told for the third time, it's time to buy yourself a bale of hay.

About Gaza, it's a funny thing that 9/10 of the western world can see the similarities, all it lacks is scale, and some German attention to fine detail.
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oh, i forgot you always tell the obvious and you always right....
3 men told me that? you got Dissociative identity disorder? :<
i like your generalisations of the western world.
oh and back to topic, you didn't reply to the beginning of my post :) (after the 1st smiley, just in case you'll start switching themes again)
 
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OK. I said when this started up again it wont go anywhere good. Please do try an contain your selves. Im not going to edit all these massages but lets keep it civil from now on...Or I will just have to lock this.

And no, its not because the thread is about Israel. Its because you guys cant discuss things with out getting into places we dont need here.

And, back on toppic:

The images of the planes, at least some of them(Not the best quality or angle) could be of Israeli Super Meyster B2, a very common plane in the IAF at the time, and to the novice spotter, similar to the Mig-15 or Mig-17.
 
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