UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Who sais that a Republic is not a democratic sistem???
Do you think that France is a dictatorship??
US is a democracy and a will tell you why:

- You have a parlament wich represent the US citizens and they make laws representing their people

-you have a independat judicial sistem

- you have civil rigths

-Human rights are respected in US ( well there are few exceptions: dead penalty. guantanamo...)

- Freedom of expresion


I could be hours writting, but you can be sure of something, YOU live in a democracy
 
staurofilakes said:
You are right, I shoul not have said that US supported the taliban, BUT they supported the fighters that after expulsing the soviets from afganistan become into the Taliban´s
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If this surprises you then I think you're very new to the world. Friends yesterday are enemies today and enemies yesterday are friends today etc. etc. so on and so forth. It happens all the time.
This is why it is your friends that you must be careful about because they will become the most deadliest of enemies when they turn because they understand how you work.
 
The US is not a Democracy, as a fact if you read all of the federal papers and the constituion the word Democracy is never used.
The US will never be able to implant their flavor of Democracy, as President Said, "We have nofriends only interest"

Because Democracy is a way to a government system, not an actual system.

CAFE !

QUOTE

The USA and the US Government destroyed every single copy they could find. Why ??

It was part of military training until then ! Its also good for those confused about Democracy and Republics, I have only seen one original copy, I think it would be an intersting item to have for display.


Many of you have seen the reprint of this document. If you have, it's worth reading again. If you have not, it is worth reading, studying, and reciting to your friends, family, and neighbors. It is copied from Training Manual No. 2000-25 that was published by the then War Department, Washington, D.C., November 30, 1928.

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Official Definition of DEMOCRACY

NOTE

Here are four (4) facsimile section reproductions taken from a 156 page book officially compiled and issued by the U.S. War Department, November 30,1928, setting forth exact and truthful definitions of a Democracy and of a Republic, explaining the difference between both. These definitions were published by the authority of the United States Government and must be accepted as authentic in any court of proper jurisdiction. These precise and scholarly definitions of a Democracy and a Republic were carefully considered as a proper guide for U.S. soldiers and U.S. citizens by the Chief of Staff of the United States Army. Such definition stake precedence over any "definition" that may be found in the present commercial dictionaries which have suffered periodical "modification" to please "the powers in office. Shortly after the "bank holiday" in the thirties, hush-hush orders from the White House suddenly demanded that all copies of this book be withdrawn from the Government Printing Office and the Army posts, to be suppressed and destroyed without explanation. This was the beginning of the complete red control of the Government from within, not from without.



-------------------

Prepared under the direction of the Chief of Staff.


CITIZENSHIP

This manual supersedes Manual of Citizenship Training The use of the publication "The Constitution of the United States," by Harry Atwood, is by permission and courtesy of the author.

CITIZENSHIP Democracy:

A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic--negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether is be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy

CITIZENSHIP Republic:

Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass. Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress. Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world. A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of

(1) an executive and (2) a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation, all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create (3) a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their government acts and to recognize (4) certain inherent individual rights.

Take away any one or more of those four elements and you are drifting into autocracy. Add one or more to those four elements and you are drifting into democracy.

Atwood. Superior to all others.--Autocracy declares the divine right of kings; its authority can not be questioned; its powers are arbitrarily or unjustly administered. Democracy is the "direct" rule of the people and has been repeatedly tried without success. Our Constitutional fathers, familiar with the strength and weakness of both autocracy and democracy, with fixed principles definitely in mind, defined a representative republican form of government. They "made a very marked distinction between a republic and a democracy * * * and said repeatedly and emphatically that they had founded a republic."



"By order of the Secretary of War: C.P. Summerall, Major General, Chief of Staff. Official: Lutz Wahl, Major General, The Adjutant General.
 
staurofilakes said:
Who sais that a Republic is not a democratic sistem???
Do you think that France is a dictatorship??
US is a democracy and a will tell you why:

- You have a parlament wich represent the US citizens and they make laws representing their people

-you have a independat judicial sistem

- you have civil rigths

-Human rights are respected in US ( well there are few exceptions: dead penalty. guantanamo...)

- Freedom of expresion


I could be hours writting, but you can be sure of something, YOU live in a democracy
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YOU might want to hit those textbooks before exams come around, bud, I'm getting a little worried about your passing.
 
Strauo, actually you can argue there are no democracies in the world. And you can also argue there were no Communist countries during the Cold War.
 
Staurofilakes, does your opinion of the United States of America have anything to do with the criticism of Spain for pulling their troops out of Iraq when public opinion of the Iraqui War soured in Spain? If so, forget it. It was an unfortunate decision but to Prime Minister Aznar, the only one he had at the moment because of political turmoil. The soldiers had no say in what their Government decided.
 
Whether the USA is a democracy or not it basically up to the individual. It certainly is democratic when compared to other forms of government. But its what your personal definition of a democracy is. If you wish to get technical then we are a republic, like some have said, and not a democracy, but if you just mean that people are free-er(?) to determine their own future and have some influence over the certain functions not only on a national level but also on a local level (IE. local bans, restrictions, city propositions) then yes we are a democracy. Its all in who you personally define democracy.
 
Okey, so you are telling me that US is not a democracy?? I could agree with you that is a democracy with many problems,BUT a democracy is not a question of words, it is a question of acts. The fact that the word democracy is not printed in your 1786´s Constitucion doesn´t mean anything. Democracy is a greek word wich means the goverment of the people. Why do you vote then??
Do you think people can vote in dictatorships?
Do you think people is allowed to express their opinions in dictatorships? Do you think people have liberty of movement in dictatorships?
Do you think people have the right to a fare judgment in a dictator ship?
Do you think people have the right to social walfare in dictatorships?? :roll:

May be the ones that should read some books concerning the concept of democracy is YOU.

Redneck, I pass that lesson many years ago, in Spain we learn that very young, we do not have to go to University to know what a democracy is, may be because we had a 36 years dictator ship. May be is what you need to understand what is a democracy!!
 
Those who say not a democracy aren't wrong. Neither are those who say it is. Sounds wishy-washy I know but it is really a matter of perspective. In the truest sense we are a republic. It's well understood by political scientists (and I have my bachelers in poli sci from Syracuse) that democracy in it's strictest form can't exist in a country much bigger than say, Switzerland. Nothing could be done fast enough to accomplish anything. Our republic, however, has democracy at its central core. The people directly elect their representatives in Congress and they directly elect their local governments. There is also the Electoral College when it comes to the Presidency that differs and the Judiciary which are appointed. Where it most significantly differs from a strict democracy is that these representatives are empowered to act as they themselves determine and they can and do act from time to time against what the majority of their voters wish at that moment. They have determined that they are acting for the greater good and with better knowledge of the subject. How this is still a measure of democracy is that if the people later feel that these representatives have not done the best thing they can be defeated in the next election and removed from office.
 
A Democratic Nation and a"True" Direct Democracy are 2 different things, but often people use the word "Democracy" for both and therein lies the confusion, just depends if you are the specific type or the general type.
 
Well, basically I think that a democracy should be based in this things:

- Separation of the three main powers: legislative, ejecutive and judicial

- Sistem based on human rights

- Different liberties: expresion, movement, social rights...

We should differenciate betewen the political sistem and goverment sistem( in europe we have direct democracy, people chosse their representats; in US you choose representants who afterwards choose the president, personally I prefer the european way, but both of them are democratic)
 
Exactly, its all how you view democracy and how literal you take the term. The USA is certainly democratic, but its just a trivial arguement debating the meaning and application of the term Democracy in context in a literal or general sense.

*shrugs*
 
staurofilakes said:
Who sais that a Republic is not a democratic sistem???
Do you think that France is a dictatorship??
US is a democracy and a will tell you why:

- You have a parlament wich represent the US citizens and they make laws representing their people

-you have a independat judicial sistem

- you have civil rigths

-Human rights are respected in US ( well there are few exceptions: dead penalty. guantanamo...)

- Freedom of expresion


I could be hours writting, but you can be sure of something, YOU live in a democracy
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- We do not have a parliament, we have a Congress which is supposed to make laws representing their people.

- Yes we do, but that is not a defining characteristic of a democracy.

- Can't argue with you there, even though civil rights and democracy do not go hand in hand.

- A person loses their rights once they violate the right of another person. The detainees at GITMO are not Americans so once again the rights granted to all Americans by the Constitution do not apply to them.

- Once again, this does not go hand in hand with Democracy.

America is a Representative Democracy, meaning we elect REPRESENTATIVES to REPRESENT us in Government, because a country of 280 million can not have a nation wide vote everytime someone wants to change Page 8, Paragraph 3, Sentence 4, Word 8 of the Tax Code.

staurofilakes said:
We should differenciate betewen the political sistem and goverment sistem( in europe we have direct democracy, people chosse their representats; in US you choose representants who afterwards choose the president, personally I prefer the european way, but both of them are democratic)
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Both of your examples are examples of Representative Democracy. In a Direct Democracy the people themselves vote on every single issue, not legislative body (other than the people). This system will not work in a population much greater than 10,000 people, and that is also assuming that only half of the people are eligible to vote.

Representative Democracy, as I have already said, means that the people elect representatives who then vote on the people's behalf. Your comparison of the Electoral College to the Popular Vote are both examples of how a Representative Democracy chooses the heads of the Executive Branch, which also has nothing to do with whether it is a Direct or Representative Democracy.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you know what you are trying to say, but your English is some what limited, making it hard for you to say what you are trying to say.
 
Thank you for the benefit of the doubt. As you said my english sucks, and is a bg effort to me to find the words that express what i mean.

-The Congres makes the some function as europen Parlaments: making laws.

-An independat judicial sistem is carasteristic of a democracy. Could you give me an example of a democracy where the judges are putted by the goverment?

-In every democracy people loose their rights when they go to jail.

-US is a member of the UN, so they MUST respect HUMAN RIGHTS, and as you can suppose Human means for the all humanity, not just americans. There is another thing called Geneva Convention, I encourage you to read it:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

You will find many interesting things!!! ;)
 
staurofilakes said:
Thank you for the benefit of the doubt. As you said my english sucks, and is a bg effort to me to find the words that express what i mean.

-The Congres makes the some function as europen Parlaments: making laws.

-An independat judicial sistem is carasteristic of a democracy. Could you give me an example of a democracy where the judges are putted by the goverment?

-In every democracy people loose their rights when they go to jail.

-US is a member of the UN, so they MUST respect HUMAN RIGHTS, and as you can suppose Human means for the all humanity, not just americans. There is another thing called Geneva Convention, I encourage you to read it:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

You will find many interesting things!!! ;)
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Ok the Congress and the Parliament are pretty much the same thing.
But:
1) The US Prez appoints the Supreme Court Judges.
2)Citizens do not lose their rights once they're jailed. WTHeck you talking about? They might not vote but they don't absolutely lose their rights.
3)Do you need a list of all the country in the world that don't respect human rights on a standard daily basis and are in the UN?
Stauroflakes, did anyone for some unknown and mysterious reason lead you into thinking that the UN is about human rights??? The UN is not about democracvy and it is NOT about human rights. The UN is about preventing wars and solve conflicts.
The Geneva Convention has nothing to do with UN membership. And trust me, RN knows about the GC already.
 
Well we agree in certain things.

-The Prez only apoints those judges, not all of them. In many democratic countries happens the same. Is Spain for example a number of the judges of the supreme court.

-when people go to jail, they lose rights, not all of them, but many, i will give you some examples: right to move with freedom along the country, right to, to be choosen as candidate for a political party, liberty of expresion(in jail they control your letters and what you talk with the visits...; and why not, in US you might loose your right to live: i am talking about the dead penalty. Is this enough???

-do not worry about the list, i cam make as well: china, rusia, china, US, and many many more

- The UN has a lot to do with human rights and i will give you some examples:

http://www.un.org/rights/

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html


I think this is enough, but if you want i will send you more information
very pleased!! ;)


-Geneve convention has a lot to do with UN: for being member of the UN you have to accept it
 
Uhm yeah as of today virtually all of the world countries have ratified the GC.
I don't see what its observance has to do with the UN though.

NKorea is in the UN, PRC is, Vietnam, Cuba, Belarus, Sudan....
If you believe the US violate human rights as often as these countries do, or as rilevantly, well it's your problem.

From your previous post, it sounded like EVERYWHERE when people go to jail they lose ALL of their rights, which they don't. They lose some, accordingly to constitution, but they don't lose their rights.


I see you like to look for the world's wrongs only where you want.
 
staurofilakes said:
-when people go to jail, they lose rights, not all of them, but many, i will give you some examples: right to move with freedom along the country, right to, to be choosen as candidate for a political party, liberty of expresion(in jail they control your letters and what you talk with the visits...; and why not, in US you might loose your right to live: i am talking about the dead penalty. Is this enough???
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Is that a bad thing?
- Right to move around the country = You would hope the criminals are locked up somewhere right? I mean, seriously.
- Right to choose a candidate for a political party = Right. What if a local candidate figures out that he can actually USE the criminal vote to win in his district? Upholding the law will become that much harder wouldn't it?
- Control letters and what you talk in visits = Right. "Get those dynamites from the usual blow up guy and do the boom at lunch time!" isn't an acceptable line in a letter.
- Losing the right to live = This is probably the only questionable one. But then again, if it's your sister that's been kidnapped, raped and cut into little pieces and her body parts used as house ornaments, chances are you'd want the perpetrator dead. And what would you accomplish by ever releasing the guy? Life imprisonment is probably a better option if u ask me though. Too many cases of getting the wrong guy.
 
Okey guys, read my post again.Italian Guy: you said people don not lose rights when they go to jail, I gived you some clear examples. I also did not say that losing thosa rights is wrong, I think it is awsome!!! One more thing, for being a member of UN you have to ratified GC!! :lol:

Those countries that you wrote are not democracies, US is a democracy!

13th red neck: I was just saying wich are the rights that a person in jail loses. The Italian guy said that one you go to prison you lose no rights, that is way I made that list. I tought that my post was very clear.

About the dead penalty: the example you gived me is not very serious, you will probable have better argument, at I hope so!!
 
The example I gave u is serious because it does happen.
After someone kidnaps your sister, rapes her, cuts her up and uses her body parts as decoration, would you want to sit down, talk with him and try to restore his life so that he can live a healthy, purposeful life and hopefully not kill again?
It's an extreme case, but it isn't something that's never happened. It's happened many times.

I think Italian Guy meant you were still bound by laws set to protect you even if you were a prisoner. The laws are different from the regular civilians but there are codes of conduct that protect others from you and protect you from others.
I don't know that's my assumption.
 
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