UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Corocotta

Corocotta

Active member
First of all, I do not have any thing against the US citizens, I think US is a great country where different cultures can live together, BUT I can not say the same about the external politics of the US Administration in the last decades:

a) During the cold war US supported or helped to rich the power to different kinds of dictator ships, for example the US administration supported the General Francos´s regime in Spain to dificult the advance of comunism in Europe after WW II, this is one of the reason why spanish people do not like US; the CIA helped Augusto Pinochet to destroy the legal goverment of Allende; the US army trained many paramilitar groups in south america to fight against the socialist movements that were incrising his power in south and central america, I am talking about Panama, Nicaragua...

b) Other thing is the HIPOCRESY of the US Administration, I will explain my self: we all agree that Sadam Hussein was a really bad guy, he killed his own people, the Kurds and the political oposition and he had MDWs; BUT he was even more bad when the US supported him during the war agaist IRAN, the US gived him weapons, militar asistance, money...., he was not bad then???? The thing is that the US was interested in stopping the advance of Iran´s Mulahs.... Before The Mulah´s got the power in lates 70´s US also supportes the SHA dictator ship, remember? Politicians are so hipocrit.....

c) About tha Afganistan war..., The talibans in year 2000 were the same that reach the power after the support that was given to them by the US to win to the Rusians. US gived the weapons, militar training, money..... They were a product of CIA policy. US said that they were attacked because they were responsible of 11-S massacre, BUT we all Know that this attack was made by arabian saudi citizens... a country wich is a friend of the US, why don´t attack arabia saudi then??

d) Some guys began to compare the US empire today with the spanish empire in XV-XVIII century, well, this does not make any sense, why? Okey, the spanish empiry was not a democracy, the US is a democracy since the XVIII century(many will say that it began to be a democracy later:see the slaves;and all the problems you had with civil rights in the 50´s...); in that century(XVIII) another genocide was taking place in the US, I am talking about the genocide of THE REAL AMERICANS: SIOUX, APACHES, CHEROOKES AND MANY OTHERS that were massacred and sended to Reserves(concentration camps??) were they are being destroyed by alcohol and drugs..... And all this happended while the US was considered the biggest democracy in the world :roll:


I hope no one get offended because of my ideas, I think this is the good thing of a forum, express what you think and if you think I am not right just have a polite discusion.

I love your forum!!
 
1) During the Cold War, the US made use , among others, of the containment, counterinsurgency and counterevolutionary doctrines.
The US faced a serious challenge on the strategic, military and logistical level from the other huge superpower, the USSR.
Both countries had their own conflicting interests and values. Their priorities was to prevent the other from taking over in certaing key-areas of the globe, as far as material resourses or strategic control were concerned.
They would support any regime that made it clear that would work as an ally against their mutual threats.
Specially in the 60s and the 70s the US help train different militaries around the world, like South American countries and elesewhere.
EVERYWHERE the alternative to that was communism.
Dictatorship are a horrible thing but world politics is not for the lighthearted- power politics is the way thing are. I don't see where the surprise is. I don't think why you assume that someone sees the US as a kind of humanitarian entity.
The government of Allende was a pro- USSR gov and it was not anything like socialdemocrat. The country was going communist. Btw, recent studies have clarified that the US logistical support to the coup was far from major. Indeed, the Kissinger doctrine correctly pointed out that supporting rightwing dictatorship was better than supporting leftwing dictatorships, because- and this a historically proven thing - leftwinging ones never leave the power, while fascist ones tend to change themselves into liberaldmocracies.
Pinochet (for as brutal and unacceptable his gov was on the human rights issues) nevertheless introducted his country to a series of economic reforms that made Chile the stablest country in SAmerica today.
Franco peacefully left power too. Turkish and Greek regimes all left the power in the 70s. SKore's authotitarian regime is today a thriving country with democratic features. Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, Belarus are still hardcore commie countries.
The so called Warsaw Pact countries went democratic after some 60 or 70 yrs.
The only country in the western hemisphere that was left communist allowed the USSR to install missiles that could reach US cities. See how motivated that was now.

2)Saddam Hussein was as bad when supporeted by the US as he was recently. but I exhort you to not overdramatize contacts and "support" by foreign governments in the 1970's. Yes though, Saddam has always been a bad guy. but don't forget that the US broke relations with Iraq in he 1980's, and invaded the country only in 2005.
Yes sure the main enemy at the time was Khomeini's Iran, and rightly so. Now you can see how world politics work, man.
The US made friends with stalin during WW2, should that be a problem?

3)About the Taliban and the alleged support from the US, you should read some books, dude. Pakistan ISI held contacts with Hekmatyar at the time, and the US let do. When Hekmatyar proved he was a jerk (he's always been) the ISI began supporting the Taliban.
The US just let do. I'm talking about the late 1980's or early 1990's.
The US broke their relations with the Taliban in 1997 though, before they took over the whole country, which they did at the expense of Afghan best man ever existed, Massoud. Massoud was US real asset in Afghanistan. Don't let them fool you, trust me.
The Taliban were not a product of the CIA policy.
The attack on Afghanistan was an attack the whole international community agreed upon delivering. The terrorist organization that planned the attacks onto the US was based in the country, supported by that government which wasn't evidently "so much" close to Washington.
The Saudi Arabia thing is a whole diff't cattle of fish. More controversial and under scanning at present.

4) I'll leave the fourth question to American friends here. The Natives extermination is a stain on America's record. Same thing happened to all developed countries that mass murdered their native populations: Australia, Russia, Brazil, Canada. Nevertheless the US was a democracy from his origin. Go check out some political studies books and look up for definition of democracy as contextualized in the past centuries.

Thanks for loving the forum.
 
Re: UNITES STATES OF AMERICA

staurofilakes said:
d) Some guys began to compare the US empire today with the spanish empire in XV-XVIII century, well, this does not make any sense, why? Okey, the spanish empiry was not a democracy, the US is a democracy since the XVIII century(many will say that it began to be a democracy later:see the slaves;and all the problems you had with civil rights in the 50´s...); in that century(XVIII) another genocide was taking place in the US, I am talking about the genocide of THE REAL AMERICANS: SIOUX, APACHES, CHEROOKES AND MANY OTHERS that were massacred and sended to Reserves(concentration camps??) were they are being destroyed by alcohol and drugs..... And all this happended while the US was considered the biggest democracy in the world :roll:
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Spain has absolutely no room to talk when it comes to Native Americans and massacre and/or genocide. They're country quite handily outdid everyone else in this department. The Spaniards also made every attempt to utterly destroy Native American cultures and quite successfully annihilated some very advanced ones. They also massacred them, enslaved them and murdered them a lot more efficiently than the USA ever dreamed of doing. Remember the burning of the Maya records? We will never fully know what was lost of their history. Spain just had a lot more impressive Native American cultures available for them to destroy.

That much said, the treatment of the Native Americans is probably the biggest disgrace in American History. The uncertain reconcilliation is the Reservations, which provide a place that is controlled by the tribes. "Concentration Camps" would be a long long ways from the truth if you actually knew what you were talking about. Reservations are essentially nations (Native American Tribes) within a nation (the USA), but they have all the rights and priveledges of American citizens with a degree of exemption from responsibilities. The theory is that the Reservation is a place for Native Americans to preserve their cultural heritage. The reality is that they become a device to inadvertantly enable many Native Americans to accomplish little or nothing with their lives. They are not trapped there anymore than I am trapped where I live. Any one of them can back up and move away at any time he or she chooses. Lately, many reservations have used their exemption from most US laws to establish casinos in states that outlaw them, and those casinos have done very well, but that source of wealth has not reliably spread to all the tribe members on the Reservation. The Windriver Reservation, the one closest to my home town, struck oil and its members made a lot of money ... but for the most part, they didn't know how to turn that into true wealth. Countless examples of a teenage boy or girl starting the day with $500 in their pocket and having spent it at the end of the day.
 
The US govt takes decisions based on its national goal and intrest. These policies may or may not be liked by other countries. But then it is these national policies that allow the US to obtain oil at much cheaper rates than otehr countries. Oil is what drives the industries of the world. It is no wonder that in the US a gallon of petrol cost between $2 to $2.25 and in some parts of Texas it is less than $2.00 per gallon, while most of us pay close to $3.50 or $3.80 per gallon of petrol.
 
Re: UNITES STATES OF AMERICA

staurofilakes said:
a) During the cold war US supported or helped to rich the power to different kinds of dictator ships, for example the US administration supported the General Francos´s regime in Spain to dificult the advance of comunism in Europe after WW II, this is one of the reason why spanish people do not like US; the CIA helped Augusto Pinochet to destroy the legal goverment of Allende; the US army trained many paramilitar groups in south america to fight against the socialist movements that were incrising his power in south and central america, I am talking about Panama, Nicaragua...
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And without that support, South Korea wouldn't have become a democracy later on.
Same goes to Indonesia.
What do you need to run a SUCCESSFUL democracy? You need money and education. It's not a coincidence that the main players in America's democracy building were rich, land owners with massive property. Democracy is a painfully difficult system to master, yet when you get it rolling is both strong and righteous.
Dictatorships were often bad. But the thing that the ones that worked did was they brought money into the country.
Every South Korean today owes his/her ass to Park Jung-hee, a dictator who took control through a Coup D'etat. Before him it was a democracy, but with no money and therefore no power. Basically a democracy for the sake of being called a democracy. He got the things sorted and brought money in.
And VERY importantly, the Americans kept Communism out. If Communism ever came and took hold, every hope, dream and potential would have been thrown out the window.
 
reply

Hi!

I agree with you that comunism was a horrible political sistem. It killed over 40 million people in Rusia and many in Cambodia, China... Every body should read an Alexandr Soljenitsin´s book called GULAG, it´s about the rusian concentration camps in Siberia.

I also agree that the democratic countries had to do something to stop the advance of comunism. After the WW II, the winners of the war created the United Nations, an institucion made for trying to solve different conflicts and to avoid WW III. This institucion have being legislating about many staff, this is what we calle International Law. The way the US fought against comunism in many countries, basically central america, was completelly against international law; in internacional law there are concepts such as soberany and independence that US completely ignored. You will say that the UN does not solve the world problems any more, ok, i agree, but then we should change it, or if any country do not follow the rules must go away...... ;) I live in Sweeden, many people from Chile live here, they had to left chile because their lives were in big risk...i do not know what will thay think if they ear your opinions, probably FLIP! :shock:

You also told me that i do not know what a democracy is, well, I am a law student, i could perfectly explain you what a democracy is, but is a lost of time, we all know what it is. You should have read my comment about the US democracy in XVIII in its context. Democracy is a concept that have being developing along the centuries(actually the first constitucion in the world,if you do not count the first democracy of roman empire: i know, the slaves could not vote!, was the american of 1786)

Concerning to the war betewen rusian and afganistan..you say US did not support afgans... well, i thought i was well known that they did..but I do not have any bibliography to show...I will look for it :D

We all know what the spanish did with south american natives. It was awful; but it happend 400 years ago!!!! But I repeat what I said before, Spain was not a democracy. During the Norther American natives genocide US was a democracy, you had a Constitucion, with civil rights and many more....i guess that not for the indians. Otherwise, I think that the genocide continued untill the beginnings of XX century You say that the Indians are happy in their reserves....i do not think so....... :roll: their life stile did not have much to do with the one they have now.....

hope to ear from you soon
 
us interest

The problem is that US can not take decisions by his own. US is part of the UN and they most follow the rules or left the organizasion. They already have a very priviliageted position in the security council with the other 6 big members: china, GB, France, rusia.... what else do you want?

the international law was created for something!!!!
 
Since you want to dip into history and name names. Aztec, Maya, Inca, the California Mission Tribes the list is very extensive. The form of Goverment whether Monarchy or Democracy matters little. The deeds were committed under a flag and in the name of a Country to advance that Countries interests. Right or Wrong it happened. It wasn't only South American Natives it was Central and North American natives as well.

And since you wish to claim 400 year amnesty and clean Espanas reputation by time and goverment changes. I suggest you vist La Tierra mis Padres. The hiearchy estbalished by Los Conquistadores is still quite evident in the Pueblos and Campos the Guerros, still hold the land and the mestizos still work the land. The Culture is a mix of Catholic (to hide) and native. All this done and supported by the Spanish Goverment via Land Grants and deeds. Do you think that the Pobres in Latin America are any happier than the Natives of North America?

And while we're at it how about the forced labor on Cubas Cane Plantations well into the 1890's.

It seems to me that this is a case of Spain should be given a pass and the US is a meany. You need to realize there is not one nation who's hands are clean.
 
staurofilakes, you will not be told again, post an introduction in the Welcoming Center before you post again. It is perfectly alright to have and express your opinions about other nations on this forum, but a patterned attack on any nation is not encouraged here, and is very likely to result in a ban. We have members from many nations here, and that fact and those members from countries other than your own must be respected.


This goes for everyone, if you post fact or what you think is fact, you MUST post a source (preferably a link) so 1) we can see where you are getting your information, and 2) so we can all be on the same page as far as knowing what everyone is talking about goes.
 
Re: reply

staurofilakes said:
We all know what the spanish did with south american natives. It was awful; but it happend 400 years ago!!!! But I repeat what I said before, Spain was not a democracy. During the Norther American natives genocide US was a democracy, you had a Constitucion, with civil rights and many more....i guess that not for the indians. Otherwise, I think that the genocide continued untill the beginnings of XX century

hope to ear from you soon
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Happy to respond to that. First of all, Democracy isn't perfect and the American treatment of Native Americans is a perfect example. The majority of Americans favored policies of driving them off their land because European Americans wanted it for themselves. The majority of them were racist and believed that "Indians" were a bunch of filthy savages with little or no redeeming qualities. Most that didn't believe things to that extreme, generally believed a lesser version of the same things. With that sort of prejudice in the minds of your voters ... you can see where it goes from there.

That is Why it happened, but there is not excuse for it and I will offer none.


staurofilakes said:
You say that the Indians are happy in their reserves....i do not think so....... :roll: their life stile did not have much to do with the one they have now.....
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The problem with this statement is that I never said that. My points were:
1.) They are not trapped there. Your statements made it sound like they were. They can choose to live there or not, but it is their choice. Whichever way they go, they are American citizens with all the same rights as anyone else in this country.
2.) Reservations are supposed to be a place where they can preserve and practice their culture. That isn't how it plays out of course, but they have the option to do what they like within limits.
3.) Reservations haven't really help Native Americans and have probably led them into a cycle of not bothering to help themselves. Its a bit like a Welfare System, sometimes you do a person no favors by giving them handouts. America is the land of opportunity but you have to take the opportunity. The way Reservations are run has led many to not bother trying to excel.
4.) The fact that they are exempted from many state and some federal laws has worked to their benefit in many instances. Opening Casinos in States the do not allow gambling, etc. Additionally, the government from way back when handed them some really crappy land. Later on, they struck oil. So in some cases, it has worked to their benefit.
 
"Not true, the LATVIANS did not do anything in istory that is bad...or good...or matters"

Uh perhaps you've forgotten WWII? They sold out the Jews there pretty fast. Teutonic Knights also had headquarters there in the Middle Ages. Your country is no more clean than any other.

"The US govt takes decisions based on its national goal and intrest. These policies may or may not be liked by other countries. But then it is these national policies that allow the US to obtain oil at much cheaper rates than otehr countries. Oil is what drives the industries of the world. It is no wonder that in the US a gallon of petrol cost between $2 to $2.25 and in some parts of Texas it is less than $2.00 per gallon, while most of us pay close to $3.50 or $3.80 per gallon of petrol."

And every other nation makes decisions based on _their_ goals and interests. The US having cheaper rates is due to two reasons. We have the refining technology and our government doesn't take the huge cut from the production pricing that other nations do. If you don't like your prices I suggest you take it up with New Delhi. OPEC sets an international price. The US doesn't get any better price than any other nation.
 
Your first mistake is assuming the United States is a democracy, it isn't.

US is a Republic and always has been.
 
Re: UNITES STATES OF AMERICA

staurofilakes said:
First of all, I do not have any thing against the US citizens, I think US is a great country where different cultures can live together, BUT I can not say the same about the external politics of the US Administration in the last decades:

a) During the cold war US supported or helped to rich the power to different kinds of dictator ships, for example the US administration supported the General Francos´s regime in Spain to dificult the advance of comunism in Europe after WW II, this is one of the reason why spanish people do not like US; the CIA helped Augusto Pinochet to destroy the legal goverment of Allende; the US army trained many paramilitar groups in south america to fight against the socialist movements that were incrising his power in south and central america, I am talking about Panama, Nicaragua...
Click to expand...

Our goal was to stop the spread of communism using any means necessary, if we had to choose the lesser of two evils so be it, and not all dictators are bad.

b) Other thing is the HIPOCRESY of the US Administration, I will explain my self: we all agree that Sadam Hussein was a really bad guy, he killed his own people, the Kurds and the political oposition and he had MDWs; BUT he was even more bad when the US supported him during the war agaist IRAN, the US gived him weapons, militar asistance, money...., he was not bad then???? The thing is that the US was interested in stopping the advance of Iran´s Mulahs.... Before The Mulah´s got the power in lates 70´s US also supportes the SHA dictator ship, remember? Politicians are so hipocrit....
Click to expand...

I suppose it was hypocritical that we also supported Iran in the Iran/Iraq war.

c) About tha Afganistan war..., The talibans in year 2000 were the same that reach the power after the support that was given to them by the US to win to the Rusians. US gived the weapons, militar training, money..... They were a product of CIA policy. US said that they were attacked because they were responsible of 11-S massacre, BUT we all Know that this attack was made by arabian saudi citizens... a country wich is a friend of the US, why don´t attack arabia saudi then??
Click to expand...

Because then the number of terrorists would increase ten fold, a nuclear attack on US soil is all but innevitable, and then we lose our third largest supplier of foreign oil. What is so bad about going to war or not going to war to protect a country's ability to defend itself?

d) Some guys began to compare the US empire today with the spanish empire in XV-XVIII century, well, this does not make any sense, why? Okey, the spanish empiry was not a democracy, the US is a democracy since the XVIII century(many will say that it began to be a democracy later:see the slaves;and all the problems you had with civil rights in the 50´s...); in that century(XVIII) another genocide was taking place in the US, I am talking about the genocide of THE REAL AMERICANS: SIOUX, APACHES, CHEROOKES AND MANY OTHERS that were massacred and sended to Reserves(concentration camps??) were they are being destroyed by alcohol and drugs..... And all this happended while the US was considered the biggest democracy in the world :roll:
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There is no such thing as real Americans, even the "Native Americans" emigrated to the Americas tens of thousands of years ago, either over the Berring Land Bridge or via the Pacific Ocean. And before we talk about American Genocide of the "Indians" Let's look at the depopulation of the Mesoamericas following the Spanish conquests. "Historians disagree on the total New World population at the time of Contact. The highest estimates are around 80 million. The most convincing estimates are between 20-30 million. Regardless, by the end of the 16th century, credible estimates put a survivor population at just over 1 million." So, most estimates agree that as a result of diseases brought to the New World by Spanish forces, anywhere from 19-29 million people died. Also "Hispanola (modern Haiti and the Dominican Republic) were the first site of European contact. Exposure to smallpox during early Spanish attempts to convert the population into plantation slavery exterminated all 2.5 million inhabitants. They were replaced by African slaves, and this process was repeated throughout the New World for decades to varying degrees." And the there is a reason why the Reservations in America are some of the worst lands in the country, they are meant to force the "Native Americans" to move into urban areas and be assimilated into mainstream American culture. And today tribal matters on Reservations are exactly that, tribal. The Federal Government has a hands off approach when handling the people on the Reservations, sort of, they get welfare checks everymonth, free housing, free phones, power, cable, basically they get a new house with all the basics and then some. I was talking to some contractors, their company was hired to build houses on the Reservations, they build and furnished the houses, winter set in and they had to wait three months, when they got back the house were trashed. All the appliances had been sold, some houses were just destroyed, yes Reservations are essentially a third world country right in the heart of America, but all the blame does not go to the American Government, corruption is rampant in these tribal governments, my aunt and uncle were robbed by the son of a chief up in Cass Country, but they technically live on reservation lands and the tribal government did nothing. One brightside for the Tribes is that in most states only the tribes are allowed to own and operate Casino's, which is a huge source of income in America.


I hope no one get offended because of my ideas, I think this is the good thing of a forum, express what you think and if you think I am not right just have a polite discusion.

I love your forum!!
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As you will soon learn here, it is impossible to say anything on this forum without somebody getting offended because we have such diverse membership, something that may not be offensive in your country can be quite offensive to someone from another country. (Like you accusing the US of Genocide.)

Afganhistan
The US has never in anyway supported the Taliban or Al Qaeda, both organizations were founded after the Russians were expelled from Afganhistan. Al Qaeda was founded by Osama bin Laden, using funds he inhereted from his father (the bin Laden family is the second richest in Saudi Arabia) he set up Al Qaeda, after the US sent troops to defend Saudi Arabia from possible Iraqi invasion. Osama felt that Iraq was an Arab issue that should have been solved by the Arab nations, Osama felt that the Saudi's were weak for allowing this "intrusion by the infidels into the holy land." It was only after the Gulf War that Al Qaeda was founded, without any American Govt. involvement. The CIA trained Osama to fight the communists in Afganhistan, this is different from the CIA supporting the Taliban or Al Qaeda.

The Taliban was also founded after the Soviets were expelled. The Northern Alliance was backed by the US, but they were not very sensitive to the feelings of they people, they forced men to shave and did not allow women to be veiled in public, like many other government supported by teh US, they were the minority but they were kissing our asses so we helped them. The Taliban were liked by the majority of the people because of their strict adherence to Muslim Law. They in fact went to far in limiting women's rights, according to traditional Muslim Law women were allowed to own land, but not in Afganhistan.

More about these "Concentration Camps."
The "Indians" are not bound to stay on the Reservations, in the very early days of their creation they were but not anymore. And, the Constitution only applies to Americans, not Canadians, not Spaniards, not Russians, just Americans. At the time of these acts of "genocide" the "native americans" were not American citizens so the rights granted to all American citizens did not apply to them as they were not American Citizens.

Why do europeans keep trying to throw this 'genocide of the 'Indians'" in our faces? They were the ones who introduced diseases which ravaged the Americas and killed tens of millions. And if I remember correctly, europe has a pretty violent past. (ie Spanish and Roman Inquisitions, Pellyponesian wars, Punic Wars, WWI started in Europe, Napolean was a european, the Czars, and as was mentioned earlier, the Kings and Queens of Spain.
 
You are right, I shoul not have said that US supported the taliban, BUT they supported the fighters that after expulsing the soviets from afganistan become into the Taliban´s
 
Re: us interest

stauroflakes said:
You also told me that i do not know what a democracy is, well, I am a law student, i could perfectly explain you what a democracy is
Click to expand...

staurofilakes said:
They already have a very priviliageted position in the security council with the other 6 big members: china, GB, France, rusia....
Click to expand...

As you are a "Law student" you should know that UNSC permanent members are 5 in all, not the US + 6 as you said.
 
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