This is why I support CCW

[MontyB]

How was Triggerhappy THERE but didn't know who instigated it? OK, the cop...Easily fixable...Witnesses...And video surveillance. . Any more?

OK so the police are going stop and study videos and interview witnesses while people are shooting at each other?

But how about this your stance is that if everyone is armed no one will shoot anyone and mine is that if no one is armed no one will be shot and to prove the point lets take 50 people each lock them in separate buildings yours will be armed with any handgun they want and mine will have no guns at all and see which of us is right.

However oddly enough I don't really want to argue gun control when to be perfectly honest the thing that I find most sickening is that people already have advertisements out before the victims are cold

 

[Rob Henderson]

OK so the police are going stop and study videos and interview witnesses while people are shooting at each other?

But how about this your stance is that if everyone is armed no one will shoot anyone and mine is that if no one is armed no one will be shot and to prove the point lets take 50 people each lock them in separate buildings yours will be armed with any handgun they want and mine will have no guns at all and see which of us is right.

However oddly enough I don't really want to argue gun control when to be perfectly honest the thing that I find most sickening is that people already have advertisements out before the victims are cold

I like 5.56's approach better...He IS the policeman afterall...And that's official procedure. OK, 50 people. First off, the idea is that nobody KNOWS who is armed and who isn't...You might be the one to pick the fight with the guy who has a desert eagle jammed in his pants, or you might pick the fight with the guy who has nothin but...jammed in his pants. Now, in a scenario like yours, it's not accurate because that's a CONTROLLED environment. A campus with 15,000+ people is impossible to control completely.


Campaign ads weren't the reason for this thread...The reason was...To let people know that if CCW was allowed on this campus...The tragedy could have been avoided...Or significantly lessened.

 

[MontyB]

I like 5.56's approach better...He IS the policeman afterall...And that's official procedure. OK, 50 people. First off, the idea is that nobody KNOWS who is armed and who isn't...You might be the one to pick the fight with the guy who has a desert eagle jammed in his pants, or you might pick the fight with the guy who has nothin but...jammed in his pants. Now, in a scenario like yours, it's not accurate because that's a CONTROLLED environment. A campus with 15,000+ people is impossible to control completely.


Campaign ads weren't the reason for this thread...The reason was...To let people know that if CCW was allowed on this campus...The tragedy could have been avoided...Or significantly lessened.

You know I like weapons (I collect them in fact) and I enjoy using them but I personally find the arguments he uses absolutely ludicrous it completely overlooks the realities of human nature and tries to intellectualise an irrational action basically he has made firearms a religion.
But once again your theories are pure speculation and whats worse is that it is speculation made by discounting the facts that don't support your argument.

I completely agree that your scenario will reduce the chances of mass shootings but I still believe it will increase the cases of reactionary shootings so whats better one mass shooting every 12 months where 30 people are killed or 30 individual shootings a year?

 

[5.56X45mm]

OK so the police are going stop and study videos and interview witnesses while people are shooting at each other?

Are you frakking smoking crack?????

We don't interveiw folks while a gun fight is going on. WE FINISH THE DAMN GUN FIGHT!

As a Police Officer, I deal with the possibility of an event like what just happened in VA Tech happening in my area of patrol. We have One high School, One Middle School (Junior High School), Two Grade Schools, and One Community College/University.

We train in something called RAT (Rapid Action Tactics). It goes 100% against our standard traning for a gun fight... Seeking cover, securing rooms, making sure that folks behind you or around you aren't armed, etc....

RAT demands that we (police officers) run right into the middle of the fight and disable the bad guy.

Disable means either taking the bad guy into custody or if needed, shooting the bad guy.

As a civilian, before I bacame a police officer I was a CCW permit holder. I carried everywhere that I could because of situtations like this.

Israel has armed it's teachers.... Thailand has armed it's teachers.... Wisconsin had a bill that would have allowed for it's teachers to be armed....

In Mississippi, a teacher stopped something like this becase he had a firearm in his trunk. People still died. If he had been allowed to carry his firearm. he could've stopped the guman much sooner.

Police cannot be everywhere. We cannot patrol 15,000 students.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

Tuesday, January 31, 2006
Gun bill gets shot down by panel
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.
By Greg Esposito
381-1675

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, would not comment Monday because he was not part of the subcommittee that discussed the bill.

Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.

In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.

Incident in VA:

As details of today's murder spree (no, it not a "tragedy" It's a crime!) in VA slowly trickle out, several facts are not in dispute:

(1) The perpetrator carried firearms onto a college campus in flagrant and contemptuous defiance of existing "rules" prohibiting guns on campus. Such rules were obviously a "deterrent" only to those who don't commit crimes anyway.

(2) Every innocent person who was shot was, at the time, unarmed and defenseless. There were no armed, good people physically present as murders were being committed. No one in a position to stop these crimes had the ability to confront the perpetrator with lethal force. And, nothing less was, or would have been, effective!

(3) Armed police responded aggressively, courageously, and about as fast as they've ever going to. Nonetheless, all murders had already been completed by the time they arrived. They did not get there in time to prevent a single one. They never fired a shot!

(4) With all recent, similar incidents, the foregoing has been the pattern. The usual "solutions" are predictably being regurgitated by leftist politicians and media socialists, ranging from airport-like security at the entrance to all educational buildings, to a camera on every corner! No one dares mention the only solution that can work, or has ever worked: good people, armed. To naive grasseaters, such a thing is beyond imagination!

Real Americans, however, are not waiting for assorted political gasbags to, once again, make their tired case for a Soviet-style police-state. I just talked with a friend who is a large gun retailer in CO. Today was his busiest, single sales day in several years. People flooded his store and carried away nearly every gun and round of ammunition he had in stock! Americans are weary of hearing about government "security plans." They are putting together their own, personal "security plan!"

Our Second Amendment, the original "Homeland Security," is alive and well, except in designated "Criminal Empowerment Zones," like college campuses!

/John Farnam
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[MontyB]

Personally man I think you are paranoid beyond belief and probably smoking something yourself if you believe arming 15000 students isn't going to create more problems than it solves.

And personally speaking I am amazed anyone can support an organisation that starts cashing in on peoples death within 12 hours of the event that alone speaks volumes about the mentality of its supporters.

 

[5.56X45mm]

Appalachian School of Law shooting

On January 16, 2002, the Dean, Anthony Sutin, Professor Thomas Blackwell, and student Angela Dales were shot and killed by disgruntled student Peter Odighizuwa, 43, of Nigeria. Three other students were shot but survived. After he ran out of ammunition, Odighizuwa was subdued by two ASL students who were former police officers. One of the students who helped capture Odighizuwa retrieved his service revolver from his vehicle after hearing shots being fired in the law school. The students held Odighizuwa until the police arrived.


Pearl High School Shooting

On October 1, 1997, 16-year old Luke Woodham stabbed his mother to death. He then took a rifle to his school, Pearl High School (PHS). He shot and killed his ex-girlfriend and another student while maiming another seven. Six other boys were later arrested for allegedly conspiring with Luke in the school shooting, although all save one were cleared of all charges. The assistant principal of Pearl High, Joel Myrick, pulled a gun from his car parked off campus, intercepted Woodham and held him until police arrived.

 

[MontyB]

Appalachian School of Law shooting

On January 16, 2002, the Dean, Anthony Sutin, Professor Thomas Blackwell, and student Angela Dales were shot and killed by disgruntled student Peter Odighizuwa, 43, of Nigeria. Three other students were shot but survived. After he ran out of ammunition, Odighizuwa was subdued by two ASL students who were former police officers. One of the students who helped capture Odighizuwa retrieved his service revolver from his vehicle after hearing shots being fired in the law school. The students held Odighizuwa until the police arrived.


Pearl High School Shooting

On October 1, 1997, 16-year old Luke Woodham stabbed his mother to death. He then took a rifle to his school, Pearl High School (PHS). He shot and killed his ex-girlfriend and another student while maiming another seven. Six other boys were later arrested for allegedly conspiring with Luke in the school shooting, although all save one were cleared of all charges. The assistant principal of Pearl High, Joel Myrick, pulled a gun from his car parked off campus, intercepted Woodham and held him until police arrived.

Yes and this was the point I made earlier about only using facts that suit your case, heres another way of looking at your above examples.
In both cases had firearms not been easily available no one would have been shot.

 

[Rob Henderson]

Case and point. Guns help situations like this. Not hurt. And again, the point of the thread was NOT to discuss morals.


But see, firearms are ALWAYS accessible. No matter how strict our gun control laws get... We will ALWAYS have those illegals.

 

[MontyB]

Case and point. Guns help situations like this. Not hurt. And again, the point of the thread was NOT to discuss morals.

Yes like I said selective use of fact as guns also CREATED the situation, you can argue all you like but had the gun not been available in the first place none of this would have happened however the fact that you seem to over look this simple premise means this argument will continue to go nowhere.

 

[Rob Henderson]

Yes, guns created the situation...But guns will ALWAYS be available. Thats my point...It doesnt matter how strict the government gets, the guns will still find themselves in the hands of those who want them. You must have missed that when I stated it the first time...

 

[5.56X45mm]

Okay MontyB....

New Zealand outlawed firearms right?

You still have gun crime right?

So does that mean that criminals still break the law?

Does a criminal stop and think "Gee, guns are outlawed so that means I cannot use a gun to commit my crime... what a shame."

NO! CRIMINALS WILL BREAK THE LAW ANYWAYS! WHY OUTLAW LEGAL CITIZENS FROM OWNING FIREARMS AND HAVING A MEANS TO PROTECT THEMSELVES WHEN CRIMINALS ARE GOING TO BREAK THE LAW ANYWAYS?

 

[Donkey]

Guess what Monty Joe Nut Job walked right into the campus where guns were not allowed and shot 32 people to death...your argument is quite flawed....

 

[Gator]

I want to know why the gunman was given nearly 3 hours to kill people.

I feel in some ways the Police are pushing Citizens more towards the need for an Armed Citizen Force 24/7 because Police are lazy.

 

[Rabs]

And personally speaking I am amazed anyone can support an organisation that starts cashing in on peoples death within 12 hours of the event that alone speaks volumes about the mentality of its supporters.

Ditto I live in West Virgina and had several friends go to VT thankfully there ok, but the fact flashy graphics are out already, is just god-damn revolting. I really hope this isn't NRA supported or anything.

About guns on college campuses. That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard. People burn couches at WVU, i dont want people burning couches and packing heat.

Also, what happens when a student that has a gun, fires at the bad guy, a student walks around the corner, sees the kid shooting and shoots at him, and it snowballs into a school wide fire-fight. There is just so many risks with that idea, a bunch of drunk college kids with guns is not a good idea, ever.

Police should have guns on college campuses, thats it.

I don't want to live in a world or go to college in something that resembles the Wild West, with students packing heat, thats scary and stupid.

 

[Donkey]

Some of you in here seem to think that it is just a simple task of obtaining a permit and that people with CCW permits would just run around like cowboys...

Your lack of faith and understanding of the entire concept and possible the nation troubles me deeply. Perhaps that you feel people are that stupid because well, I will leave it at that.

 

[5.56X45mm]

I want to know why the gunman was given nearly 3 hours to kill people.

I feel in some ways the Police are pushing Citizens more towards the need for an Armed Citizen Force 24/7 because Police are lazy.

In regards to the 3 hours....

The first shooting was of a girl friend and her Resident Advisor. Police blieved that it was a domestic murder. 99% of the time, the suspect flees the crime scene.

Police cannot be everywhere 24/7. I cannot be everywhere 24/7 to protect you.

 

[Rabs]

Perhaps that you feel people are that stupid because well, I will leave it at that.

Im not against a CCW in general, I'm against armed college campuses. When your at a party and people start tossing couches into the street and lighting them on fire, the idea of those people being armed is terrifying. Maybe if every 20-21 year old was mature and would be responsible this would be feasible, but its not. College kids are stupid and they sure as hell don't need guns.

 

[Donkey]

The case is still under way and being investigated...

From what I have read so far it was a Chinese Male that was here on a student Visa and they believe the bomb threats earlier in the year where this man testing the security... They are not sure that the two incidents where related or that there was not more then one gunman...

This could become very interesting to see what comes of this, this was something that seems like it was very well planned out...

Im not against a CCW in general, I'm against armed college campuses. When your at a party and people start tossing couches into the street and lighting them on fire, the idea of those people being armed is terrifying. Maybe if every 20-21 year old was mature and would be responsible this would be feasible, but its not. College kids are stupid and they sure as hell don't need guns.

Oh yeah I went to college in Vermont where hunting is a large part of peoples lives...Let me tell you there was a lot of guns on campus and at one point in college history their was a shooting range in the basement of a dorm, however they needed storage so the recreational things where the first to go...

But guess what with all the guns no one was ever shot...HOLY CRAP, and yes we partied hard, most people that are educated in gun safety are responsible with their weapon...

Regardless the professors could have been CCW permitted

 

[major liability]

I am so not looking forward to college. I'm gonna have to carry a tactical folder and some bear mace. Not a good substitute for a GLOCK 19...

 

[5.56X45mm]

Ditto I live in West Virgina and had several friends go to VT thankfully there ok, but the fact flashy graphics are out already, is just god-damn revolting. I really hope this isn't NRA supported or anything.

About guns on college campuses. That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard. People burn couches at WVU, i dont want people burning couches and packing heat.

Also, what happens when a student that has a gun, fires at the bad guy, a student walks around the corner, sees the kid shooting and shoots at him, and it snowballs into a school wide fire-fight. There is just so many risks with that idea, a bunch of drunk college kids with guns is not a good idea, ever.

Police should have guns on college campuses, thats it.

I don't want to live in a world or go to college in something that resembles the Wild West, with students packing heat, thats scary and stupid.

Rabs, the Idea of CCW isn't something new. It should just be changed to allow folks to carry on campus. Gun Free Zones simply disarm folks and creates a target rich environment for gunmen.

I'm glad that you didn't lose your friends... This Graphic was not created by the NRA. It was made by Oleg Volk a gun owner and professional photographer.

The Anti-Gun folks will be pushing this as their new reason to ban all firearms. Trust me on this.

I feel horrible about the shooting but I will not allow my rights to be taken away by soemone that will use this as an excuse to do so.