Oh yes, but the alliances were forged when the threat was the USSR, not Saddam. I think the problem with some europian govs is that they do not realise what a threat terror is right now. Most are yet to have had a major attack. The Spanish amtter was redicules. I think it's there right not to be in Iraq, but all they are doing is shooting them selves in the leg. The Spanish people just signaled to the terrorists-"We will surrender if you hurt us bad enough". That is no way to win a war, and like it or not, the Fundamentalist Muslims are at war with anyone who is not muslim. Sure, some say that they first need to take over the arab countrys, but all want Islam to rule the world. The EU countrys need to think if they want to start fighting now, or wait till Osama or Nasrallah land non their front porch. You simply cant do this Half-assed. However, some countrys just dont have the resources. These countrys cant activly go after the bad guys. So, at least support the war on terror poilitically....
The true and not so true American allies?
Come on Sherman...
Since the early seventies, France, Germany, England, Italy, Spain and Greece have lived throught terrorism....
Baader Manhof, Armata Rossa, Action Directe, ETA, IRA + all the Lybians, Palestinians, Armenians,Algerians...
We have had armed troops in the street since the mid eighties...
For America, YES, terrorism is new....
We've been fighting it for about 30 years!
Since the early seventies, France, Germany, England, Italy, Spain and Greece have lived throught terrorism....
Baader Manhof, Armata Rossa, Action Directe, ETA, IRA + all the Lybians, Palestinians, Armenians,Algerians...
We have had armed troops in the street since the mid eighties...
For America, YES, terrorism is new....
We've been fighting it for about 30 years!
I'm still not sure attacking Iraq was a way to stop terrorists. It can also be seen by the Fundamentalist Muslims Sherman is talking about, as an attack of the Muslim region.
I'm not saying attacking Iraq was wrong, I'm just not sure wether the American way of barging in guns blazing was the right way to go, especially when the UN ,including the inspectors, wanted to wait.
I agree with Sherman on the part of the Spanisch, they send the message into the world "terrorism works". I don't get that, they have had a lot of terrorist attacks by the ETA in the past, and probably will have more in the future. Why was this Al-Qaida attack so important?
I'm not saying attacking Iraq was wrong, I'm just not sure wether the American way of barging in guns blazing was the right way to go, especially when the UN ,including the inspectors, wanted to wait.
I agree with Sherman on the part of the Spanisch, they send the message into the world "terrorism works". I don't get that, they have had a lot of terrorist attacks by the ETA in the past, and probably will have more in the future. Why was this Al-Qaida attack so important?
GuyontheRight said:
Because it did not attempt to make it a NATO operation right from the start. In fact, it still hasn't done so. ISAF is a NATO operation, but US military operations in Afghanistan are separate from it.
LCDR_SurfWar wrote said:
When it comes to public opinion, there isn't much difference in attitudes toward Iraq across Europe. Everywhere, including in Great Britain, Poland, Spain, Italy, as well as France and Germany, the public opinion was heavily against the war in Iraq. It still is. Blair essentially took Britain to war against the will of his people.
Mod Edit: Don't make back to back posts.
Troop Rupert
Active member
Hi, gents. Thought this was an interesting thread, so thought I'd put in my 2 cents' worth;
Eric, you said that the Uk was pretty much a US colony, as the Uk felt more American than European.
Actually, I'm not sure I agree, speaking as a Briton. We've got close diplomatic, military and even some cultural ties to the US (and we still owe them a few quid from WWII Lend-Lease, etc,etc!!) but equally, we've got close political, economic and cultural ties to continental, or at least Western Europe.
I'm neither a European or a US colonial, myself; just British. :roll:
Eric, you said that the Uk was pretty much a US colony, as the Uk felt more American than European.
Actually, I'm not sure I agree, speaking as a Briton. We've got close diplomatic, military and even some cultural ties to the US (and we still owe them a few quid from WWII Lend-Lease, etc,etc!!) but equally, we've got close political, economic and cultural ties to continental, or at least Western Europe.
I'm neither a European or a US colonial, myself; just British. :roll:
ahh, no offence, but the europian terror groups are mellow compared with the middle eastern ones. fact is that there is only one western country that takes casualties to terror on a weekly or even daily basis. I dont know about the europians having troops in the streets, ive been to the UK and the only troops i saw in london were those guys with the big hats and the horses(forgot their name). Ive been to athenes and the only troops I saw were inside gov. buildings. either way the europian govs have a very strange way of fighting terror. You cant be anti-osama and pro-saddam at the same time. Its just dosent work.
Shadowalker
Active member
The current european terrorist groups dont seem as important as al queda currently but in the past the european terrorist groups were a big threat, the IRA has killed between 1969 and 1999 3637 people!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/northern_ireland/2001/provisional_ira/
In london did you notice there were no bins i the streets? the IRA used to bombs in the bins when they were there!
Compared to some middle eastern terrorist groups they might seem a bit mllow but the british, french, spanish etc. governments are still fighting terror.
Wheres the link between osama and saddam?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/northern_ireland/2001/provisional_ira/
In london did you notice there were no bins i the streets? the IRA used to bombs in the bins when they were there!
Compared to some middle eastern terrorist groups they might seem a bit mllow but the british, french, spanish etc. governments are still fighting terror.
Wheres the link between osama and saddam?
GuyontheRight
Active member
Saddam is not the secular socialist he was In the 80s. Both men used Islam as a weapon against democracy, obviously Osama more then Saddam.. The point is they both are enemies of the west, and although they may be in convluct with each other, I remind you of the familier phrase: My enemies enemy is my friend.
Shadowalker
Active member
SHERMAN said:
I agree with you that they are both a threat to the free nations, though if you were an iraqi you could be pro saddam and anti-osama, but i cant see anyone else who would. regarding americas allies Britain, australia, italy are the main allies currently against the terrorists but apart from countries like syria, iran , north korea the whole world is its ally as no country wants terrorists like al-queda or rogue nations like north korea.
Doc.S said:Europe is having domestic problems to take any decisions thanks to the EU membership. No country want to take a road map and show the rest were to go and it has its roots in the different domestic political situations you can find in every country in Europe.
Why not a big support because sweden for an example are built up on a minority government with the socialists, the Left Party and the Green Party that builds our government. That is a so called green and red mixture that all have in common no war and special not with or togheter with the USA. If they would do something like that our socialist party would loose its majority because the Left Party and then the Green Party would run away.
The right wing was for an active support on the war in Iraq and in Afghanistan but this Green Red mixture has effective stoped any such involvements. But to send troops down to africa is no problem for our government thats for sure. Half of our best armoured forces are down there and having a peace mission all in the name of the UN.
Sweden has become a haven for international terrorist and have been that for a while, because according to our laws we do not hand out persons to other states if they can be subjects for death penaltys or torture and another good reason is that in sweden we got all the technology that different terrorist or as it is called "sleeping cells" needs to do their transactions and other work in the dark as planing and so on, that is an known fact for any sweed that have any insight in the real reality of my own country.SMILE BIG SMILE!
"But if I see Usama Bin Ladin who should I contact? I would not be stupid to alert my own authorites that would be a great misstake for sure. US embassy is to risky with our intelligence on the other side of the line." Active role in the antiterrorist war can`t be swedens advertising slogan thats for sure. Sweden is probably one of EUs biggest turncoats in the whole union. :lol:
Cheers:
Doc.S
:viking:
Sweden have military advisors in Afghanistan. Aswell as support with money of the restoration of afghanistan
But yeah, true about the terrorism things.
Troop Rupert: I said the UK acts like a colony....sometimes I wonder if England really questions the US agenda....but that's me!! :lol:
As far as Europe goes, sure the ties are there but England kind of drags its feet on many issues...come on! you have the chunnel and free flow of illegal immigration now! That is a European value!
Sherman:French soldiers have been manning the streets of Paris since the Algerians blew nail bombs in our streets....sure Paris is dirty (no trash bins)...but we had to choose between the bins and the nail bombs.
Germany, Italy, Greece...soldiers too at airports, train stations...
Our terrorism was Muslim too as I said on an earlier post....Fatah, Black september, PLO, Hamas...and our european terrorists were trained in their camps by the Arafat s and Quadafis...
They hi-jacked planes, blew up planes, kidnapped and slaughtered CEOs, car bombed barracks, bombed night clubs or train station, took hostages, hi-jacked cruise boats...
Memories :roll:
I was taking the bullet train from Paris to some location south of france with my tank company one day in 1995. We were wearing our uniforms. That was the heights of Vigie Pirate, our anti-terror deployment of joint patrols with the police. Anyways. Train leaves and a passenger finds a lonely suitcases between two cars. 2oomph....I understand his worries. He takes the suitcase and while looking for a controller, sees me, drops it on my laps saying it could be a bomb and goes away...
That is the atmosphere we live in now...nothing close to your life in Israel but nothing close to the life of my parents....by the way, I took the suitcase to the end of the train, we moved people one car up, and disembarked the suitcase at the next station...
As far as Europe goes, sure the ties are there but England kind of drags its feet on many issues...come on! you have the chunnel and free flow of illegal immigration now! That is a European value!
Sherman:French soldiers have been manning the streets of Paris since the Algerians blew nail bombs in our streets....sure Paris is dirty (no trash bins)...but we had to choose between the bins and the nail bombs.
Germany, Italy, Greece...soldiers too at airports, train stations...
Our terrorism was Muslim too as I said on an earlier post....Fatah, Black september, PLO, Hamas...and our european terrorists were trained in their camps by the Arafat s and Quadafis...
They hi-jacked planes, blew up planes, kidnapped and slaughtered CEOs, car bombed barracks, bombed night clubs or train station, took hostages, hi-jacked cruise boats...
Memories :roll:
I was taking the bullet train from Paris to some location south of france with my tank company one day in 1995. We were wearing our uniforms. That was the heights of Vigie Pirate, our anti-terror deployment of joint patrols with the police. Anyways. Train leaves and a passenger finds a lonely suitcases between two cars. 2oomph....I understand his worries. He takes the suitcase and while looking for a controller, sees me, drops it on my laps saying it could be a bomb and goes away...
That is the atmosphere we live in now...nothing close to your life in Israel but nothing close to the life of my parents....by the way, I took the suitcase to the end of the train, we moved people one car up, and disembarked the suitcase at the next station...
Shadowalker
Active member
Europe has had to deal with terrorism a lot longer than the US has.
I think in britain we do question the US agenda as we seem to be following it blindly led by blair.
Europe/EU has screwed britain in the past that is why we are dragging our feet, and many of us, me included dont want to see britain dragged into a euopean superstate which will not benefit us.
I think in britain we do question the US agenda as we seem to be following it blindly led by blair.
Europe/EU has screwed britain in the past that is why we are dragging our feet, and many of us, me included dont want to see britain dragged into a euopean superstate which will not benefit us.
godofthunder9010
Active member
Yeah, the USA was all blissfully unaware of the concept of global terrorism and we got the biggest wakeup call ... ever. I don't know of any peacetime terrorist attack that surpasses the 9/11 attacks. Before, we knew what terrorism was, but we hadn't really dealt with the realities of firsthand.
Shadowalker
Active member
Yeah sadly america did get a terrible wake up call,
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 00:07 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The US and Israel seem to react to the constant threat of terrorism a little differently. Rather than:
1.) voting against every proposal that Arabic/Muslim countries don't like,
2.) backing down when threatened (Spain)
3.) continually try to blow sunshine up the collective asses of Islam, and
4.) angrily protest anyone who tries any other approach.
... the US and Israel
1.) use all their resources to find and remove terrorist organizations,
2.) attack and/or remove threats at their source where possible,
3.) promote global policies to work against terrorism from every possible direction.
I guess I just don't understand the approach adopted by most European countries. Seems awfully counterproductive. Obviously, these are general rules and don't cover everything.
Interesting that you picked israel and USA as they are in two completely different boats. You could argue that europe is in the same position as israel in that we have terrorism at home and we are fighting terrorism in our own countries and that is for eg spain more important than fighting terrorists abroad as it affects us more directly. USA is in a different situation in that you dont have any terrorist groups Your terrorist threat is from abroad and you have to go abroad to fight it which is far more public then fighting the terrorists in your own country.
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 00:07 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The US and Israel seem to react to the constant threat of terrorism a little differently. Rather than:
1.) voting against every proposal that Arabic/Muslim countries don't like,
2.) backing down when threatened (Spain)
3.) continually try to blow sunshine up the collective asses of Islam, and
4.) angrily protest anyone who tries any other approach.
... the US and Israel
1.) use all their resources to find and remove terrorist organizations,
2.) attack and/or remove threats at their source where possible,
3.) promote global policies to work against terrorism from every possible direction.
I guess I just don't understand the approach adopted by most European countries. Seems awfully counterproductive. Obviously, these are general rules and don't cover everything.
Interesting that you picked israel and USA as they are in two completely different boats. You could argue that europe is in the same position as israel in that we have terrorism at home and we are fighting terrorism in our own countries and that is for eg spain more important than fighting terrorists abroad as it affects us more directly. USA is in a different situation in that you dont have any terrorist groups Your terrorist threat is from abroad and you have to go abroad to fight it which is far more public then fighting the terrorists in your own country.