The Iraq war
Capt Frogman
Brit Pack (Troop Commander)
Perhaps someone can ask some further questions and the Iraq veterans can answer them?
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Agreed but my problem is that I am not sure what to ask.
Militarily it was a foregone conclusion from the start and the only real surprise was that it lasted as long as it did most people figured on the war lasting 1-2 weeks at the most.
Politically pretty much the entire world with the exception of the USA and Britain knew exactly how it was going to pan out.
Pretty much everyone on earth outside the USA knew how post war Iraq was going to pan out as well from the insurgency to dodgy governments of convenience and I suspect deep down most people know that once the US is completely out of the picture a new dictator is more than likely going to step up to the plate and all of this was pointed out before the first shot was fired.
I recall a number of analysts and even ordinary people in the street talking about how it was going to be a 10 year thing while listening to the likes of Rumsfeld and Bush waffling on about a quick campaign and people handing out flowers, if anything the only guy I feel a little sorry for is Powell he tried to sell something I don't think even he believed to the UN and destroyed his reputation and career in the process.
Now after all that I am interested in the technical side of the war but I have no idea what I can ask specifically.
Militarily it was a foregone conclusion from the start and the only real surprise was that it lasted as long as it did most people figured on the war lasting 1-2 weeks at the most.
Politically pretty much the entire world with the exception of the USA and Britain knew exactly how it was going to pan out.
Pretty much everyone on earth outside the USA knew how post war Iraq was going to pan out as well from the insurgency to dodgy governments of convenience and I suspect deep down most people know that once the US is completely out of the picture a new dictator is more than likely going to step up to the plate and all of this was pointed out before the first shot was fired.
I recall a number of analysts and even ordinary people in the street talking about how it was going to be a 10 year thing while listening to the likes of Rumsfeld and Bush waffling on about a quick campaign and people handing out flowers, if anything the only guy I feel a little sorry for is Powell he tried to sell something I don't think even he believed to the UN and destroyed his reputation and career in the process.
Now after all that I am interested in the technical side of the war but I have no idea what I can ask specifically.
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brinktk
Active member
What's sad is that the US military/politicians honestly thought it was going to be at least a 6 month campaign to take the entire country. They became so focused on taking Iraq, hardly any planning at all was done for what to do once the country was taken. US commanders were just as surprised as the Iraqis were that the country fell in 3 weeks. Of course, we were operating under the assumption that Saddam would definitely employ his Chemical/Biological weapons that he was thought to possess. Had that been the case...it would have been a blood bath.
Of course, hind sight is 20/20...we know now he didn't possess the capability to use the WMDs, which was really the only trump card he could have possessed. The best way to stop the US military in conventional fight is to make the casualties so high we lose our taste for battle(the people back home, not the military).
As far as the technical side of the war, there are a number of things that can be asked. Many improvements in tactics and weapons were found throughout the duration of the war. The way the war was fought from the begining, the middle, and the end were all very different because of the constantly changing environment. Hell, even the individual equipment we used from the begining to the end was very different. There is a vast number of things that can be discussed here, I suppose I'll get things started up again by posing a question of my own.
Was there any event/battle/commander that stands out as being a focal point for future generations to reflect on? Also, what do you all thing will be the legacy of the veterans of this conflict in relation to their respective societies they've returned to?
Of course, hind sight is 20/20...we know now he didn't possess the capability to use the WMDs, which was really the only trump card he could have possessed. The best way to stop the US military in conventional fight is to make the casualties so high we lose our taste for battle(the people back home, not the military).
As far as the technical side of the war, there are a number of things that can be asked. Many improvements in tactics and weapons were found throughout the duration of the war. The way the war was fought from the begining, the middle, and the end were all very different because of the constantly changing environment. Hell, even the individual equipment we used from the begining to the end was very different. There is a vast number of things that can be discussed here, I suppose I'll get things started up again by posing a question of my own.
Was there any event/battle/commander that stands out as being a focal point for future generations to reflect on? Also, what do you all thing will be the legacy of the veterans of this conflict in relation to their respective societies they've returned to?
[FONT=宋体]Why Irap is not the Vietnam? [/FONT]
[FONT=宋体]Saddam[/FONT][FONT=宋体]show contempt for Bush, If American invade Iraq, Iraq will become the second Vietnam![/FONT]
[FONT=宋体]But when US military launch the campaign in 2003, the army of Iraq crack up soon! The US and British military only use several months that already overturn Saddam. why Iraq can't become second Vietnam.[/FONT]
[FONT=宋体]A few reason that I can recall:[/FONT]
[FONT=宋体]1, The Vietnamese very love their countries, they can sacrifice their lives to pretect their countries, they took American as invader, so they will battle to USA on duty. Many Iraq people hate families of Saddam ,they won't shed their blood for dictators, so many soldiers of Iraqi surrendered or run away when US troops come to their face. [/FONT]
[FONT=宋体]2, The terrain of Iraq most are plane and dessert, very convenient with battle of armor vehicle and tanks of US. Many valley, mountains , rivers and tropical forest in Vietnam, that is the hell for American army ,no matter that armor troops or infantry. tropical forest cover up the North Vietnamese troops and base effective, even the American drops 8 millions tons bombs can't eliminate the north Vietnam military.[/FONT]
[FONT=宋体]3, this is the most point. North Vietnam army were full support by China communist party and Soviet, they not only provide the vary weapons , from AK47 ,mine, cannons ..... to mig-plane ,radar ,air-defense missiles, even provide foods, clothes, shoes, materials, metal.....,China even send[/FONT]
[FONT=宋体]special troops like air-defense force, engineer force ,anti-mine force entry Vietnam. [/FONT]
[FONT=宋体]In fact, USA were fight with China communist party in Vietnam. [/FONT]
[FONT=宋体]Saddam are isolated from international community in Iraq war. His army can't get any weapon and parts, foods, drugs or other supply during the UN sanction. So he loss.[/FONT]
[FONT=宋体]4,The USA generals took the lessons of Vietnam, They put land force at the last time. At the monment US warplanes and long-range cruiser missiles had destroy 70-80% powers of Iraq army, the oil-fields ,airport, ports, camps, radar, communication and power facility ,armor vehicles` tanks ...so on were burnt to ash.[/FONT]
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brinktk
Active member
I found some of my writings from my last Iraq deployment. I wrote these while I was down range...they were more a way for me to get my thoughts in order than anything. I'll some of them here and you guys can tell me what you think.
July 2011
I suppose there comes a point in life where you have to sit down, take a step back, and see where you're going. This place here will do that to you, cause a person to reflect. The days are long, hot, and sometimes crazy. Still, I'm glad I'm here, if only to keep my soldiers safe and close this whole chapter in our countries history...and mine too. I know we got a long way to go in this deployment, but the writing is on the wall. I guess I'm trying to make sense of everything from the past 8 1/2 years since this war began.
Being here at the beginning I saw the chaos that comes with a rising insurgency, and the futility that must have been on everyone’s mind for us and Iraqi's. Now, I see a much calmer place. One where, even though it is still dangerous, can recover. I've met a lot of good and interesting Iraqi's since I've been here this time...many more than before. They are normal people and have much to offer the world. It has shed a new light on my whole experience of the place. I hope they can get their act together and start being a part of this world after a 40 year hiatus. The line that they've been killing each other for thousands of years is a bit comical when compared to our history and the history of the West. They've done no more to themselves than we have...they just didn't have the benefit of being ready to take advantage of the Industrial Revolution like we did...
I guess the point is that I feel some thought should be given to this. We've put these people through a lot. Americans and America are truly blessed, our lives are pretty good and our problems seem marginal when compared to the problems of an average Iraqi. I wish there was something that could be done, but there must be a point where you cut your losses. I imagine the country will be thrust into chaos when we leave, and all will seem for nothing. Maybe yes...Maybe no...All I can do is my job and keep the soldiers that I have safe, trained, and ready for anything...which we are. I suppose I just needed to write and feel like I can be heard. The soldiers that come here see all of these things on a daily basis. They accomplish their missions, do impossible tasks, deal with POGs, make the impossible possible with their ingenuity, and they do it all with a smile on their face. They are why I love this job and were it not for them, I couldn't do this.
July 2011
I suppose there comes a point in life where you have to sit down, take a step back, and see where you're going. This place here will do that to you, cause a person to reflect. The days are long, hot, and sometimes crazy. Still, I'm glad I'm here, if only to keep my soldiers safe and close this whole chapter in our countries history...and mine too. I know we got a long way to go in this deployment, but the writing is on the wall. I guess I'm trying to make sense of everything from the past 8 1/2 years since this war began.
Being here at the beginning I saw the chaos that comes with a rising insurgency, and the futility that must have been on everyone’s mind for us and Iraqi's. Now, I see a much calmer place. One where, even though it is still dangerous, can recover. I've met a lot of good and interesting Iraqi's since I've been here this time...many more than before. They are normal people and have much to offer the world. It has shed a new light on my whole experience of the place. I hope they can get their act together and start being a part of this world after a 40 year hiatus. The line that they've been killing each other for thousands of years is a bit comical when compared to our history and the history of the West. They've done no more to themselves than we have...they just didn't have the benefit of being ready to take advantage of the Industrial Revolution like we did...
I guess the point is that I feel some thought should be given to this. We've put these people through a lot. Americans and America are truly blessed, our lives are pretty good and our problems seem marginal when compared to the problems of an average Iraqi. I wish there was something that could be done, but there must be a point where you cut your losses. I imagine the country will be thrust into chaos when we leave, and all will seem for nothing. Maybe yes...Maybe no...All I can do is my job and keep the soldiers that I have safe, trained, and ready for anything...which we are. I suppose I just needed to write and feel like I can be heard. The soldiers that come here see all of these things on a daily basis. They accomplish their missions, do impossible tasks, deal with POGs, make the impossible possible with their ingenuity, and they do it all with a smile on their face. They are why I love this job and were it not for them, I couldn't do this.
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operationmatador
Active member
US intervention liberated an oppressed people from a horrible and barbar dictator and enabled iraqis to build a working democracy,task now is to help it overcome terrorist attempts of destabilisation,and only way to achieve this urgent goal is redeploying troops,absolutely,new iraqi state vitally need support to remain a barrage to regional terrorist groups and networks and to their subversive regional supports,namely qatari,who are,especially through Al Jazeera extremism network,an advanced post of jihad,serious,serious,
brinktk
Active member
Here's 2 more I found.
July 2011
The feeling starts about 2 hours out. I start doing my self-checks. I put on the headphones and go to a place in my mind to start getting ready. A ritual even...Starts with my uniform, making sure I have my boots tied and pockets secured. My smokes, dip, cell phone, pens, writing pad, maps, camera, and of course my coin secured in my left breast pocket. It's my lucky charm. I go through a set of songs to get psyched up, the same ones usually. I grab my weapon, knowing it's clean but still doing a once over to make sure it's ready and functioning. I do a few mag changes to ensure smooth operation, check the IR and laser on my PEQ-14. As I'm doing this I'm going over the mission. The routes, areas, people, tactics, TTPs, SIGACTS, all in my mind as I rehearse in my head how I will command my platoon. I secure my NVG bag to my belt, checking to make sure it mounts properly to my helmet and is working, again knowing it works because I check constantly, but one never knows over here. I put on my knee pads, fastening them comfortably so they are tight enough to keep them from sliding down my legs, but not so tight so as to cut off circulation. I grab my IOTV body armor, a hefty 70 lbs with twelve magazines, each filled with 29 rounds of 5.56 mm Ball FMJ rounds. I've placed a tracer as the third to last round in each mag to let me know when I need to reload if necessary. I have one magazine filled with a tracer every round to direct my platoons fire, making it easier for them to see where I want them to direct their attention if needed. I also have my IFAC, loaded with a tourniquet, bandage, medical tape, and IV line with needle and my personal locater beacon. I also have a flashlight, gerber, camera, camelback, maps, and a PCC/PCI checklist on this vest. A drop mag pouch so I don't lose my empty mags in a firefight. I rest the vest on my shoulder and then heft it over my head securing the right side and then left. I put on my eyepro and hat carrying my helmet and weapon to the TOC. Once there, I read the latest intel for the area and go over any last minute changes to the mission or AO. I then walk to the staging area where my soldiers are waiting for me to give my ramp brief. The vehicles and weapons all ready, soldiers talking about one thing or another. Going over past missions or new things we could do to change up our tactics or keep the enemy from being able to predict any patterns. I smoke a cigarette talking with my PSG and lead vehicle commander to go over the mission routes in depth and pointing out anything that intel has informed us to look out for. Once done, my platoon sergeant shouts to gather around, I give my ramp brief. I go over the mission once again and anything to be on the lookout for. I tell the routes, radio freqs, order of march, and then let the soldiers brief the platoon on the rest. I leave it open and they brief the different TTPs on their own to the platoon. It's random, that way they are all tracking and I know that every soldier has a crystal clear idea of what we will be doing on this mission. I conclude the ramp brief with our medic saying a prayer for the platoon. Then it's game time. The faces of all of us change, our eyes steeled as we put on all our equipment. As they mount the vehicles I do one last check of the vehicles and soldiers, making sure all are in order. I mount the vehicle once everyone is in theirs. I put my helmet on, and place the headset over my ears, hearing the chatter of the other trucks calling ready status up in code. Once all the trucks are good I call for us to move out. The mission has begun...what it will bring we don't know, but whatever it is we are ready...day in...day out.
August 2011
Monotony is a *****. The bad guys are counting on it. They have many nasty little tools of their trade to make for a very short day for anyone on the receiving end of them. They know they cannot take us on head to head, so they hit us for a split second and then vanish. Sometimes we get lucky and nail them, most of the time they are long gone before we have a chance to react. IEDs are always a big threat. There are many different variants and initiation systems. Artillery shells seem to be the most popular type, with homemade explosive being the second most kind. The most devastating kind are called EFPs or explosively formed penetrators. They can slice through pretty much any armor we have and are almost guaranteed to kill the whole truck if it hits the crew compartment. Fortunately they are hard to make and expensive. They can initiate them via cell phone, PIR or passive infrared (motion detector), crush wire (rolling a tire over the wire which completes a circuit initiating the explosion), command wire, or even a timer. The explosions occur suddenly and training takes over. Everything is heightened, your vision, smell, hearing, and emotions. I usually get angry...Then there are RKG-3s. Nasty little things, almost mini variants of the EFP I explained earlier. They are designed to be thrown and this is usually how they are employed. Bad guys like to hide in an alley, behind a wall, near bridges, or in really populated areas and throw them at us while we go by. They are almost never caught and can be devastating if employed correctly or in mass. The good thing is that there are usually indicators to look out for so we can narrow our search for bad guys when out and about. Then there is PSAF, or precision small arms fire...sniper fire. Every time we dismount we are exposed and vulnerable. We know this, we keep moving around, trying not to stay in the same spot to be harder targets to hit. Most the time you see the dust kick up or the reports of the rifle. You try to identify the point of origin...most of the time the attempt is futile. Again, they are long gone by the time we figure it out. We just call it up, go to a more secure area and continue our mission. Rarely there is a gunfight, an actual firefight, one where we can hit back. It's almost a relief. There's a thousand ways to die out here and there is only a few instances when we can do damage back. A firefight is one of them. You get high, adrenaline fills your veins, you feel alive and awake. You see all. To the amateurs you feel invincible; to the initiated you feel aware and know that it's as important to keep your wits as it is to not stand up stupidly to get a better shot at the bad guys. Small things kill. Small mistakes, almost trivial ones, they all can kill. In fact, you can do everything right and still murphy can find you and kill your young stupid ass. Yet, the feeling is there, the rush and excitement, a genuine sense of relief when it is done and an even greater sense of accomplishment that we came out the winners. There is only one winner in these types of things, no such thing as second place. We win a lot. After all is said and done your mind numbs, fatigue sets in, and you ponder all the possible alternatives to what just happened to you. Then you stop yourself because you realize you still have a long way to go and pondering too much means you're not focused. All that can wait until we go back to the states. While here we just have to keep our minds clear. Crystal clear. Remember, it's the small things...At the end of the day, you could be asleep in your bed minding your own business doing everything absolutely right...and one of those nasty rockets or mortars they like to shoot could land in your lap...sigh...FML...oh well, just roll over and go back to sleep, if it's got your name on it, then what can you do...enshalla as they say here. Just another day...
July 2011
The feeling starts about 2 hours out. I start doing my self-checks. I put on the headphones and go to a place in my mind to start getting ready. A ritual even...Starts with my uniform, making sure I have my boots tied and pockets secured. My smokes, dip, cell phone, pens, writing pad, maps, camera, and of course my coin secured in my left breast pocket. It's my lucky charm. I go through a set of songs to get psyched up, the same ones usually. I grab my weapon, knowing it's clean but still doing a once over to make sure it's ready and functioning. I do a few mag changes to ensure smooth operation, check the IR and laser on my PEQ-14. As I'm doing this I'm going over the mission. The routes, areas, people, tactics, TTPs, SIGACTS, all in my mind as I rehearse in my head how I will command my platoon. I secure my NVG bag to my belt, checking to make sure it mounts properly to my helmet and is working, again knowing it works because I check constantly, but one never knows over here. I put on my knee pads, fastening them comfortably so they are tight enough to keep them from sliding down my legs, but not so tight so as to cut off circulation. I grab my IOTV body armor, a hefty 70 lbs with twelve magazines, each filled with 29 rounds of 5.56 mm Ball FMJ rounds. I've placed a tracer as the third to last round in each mag to let me know when I need to reload if necessary. I have one magazine filled with a tracer every round to direct my platoons fire, making it easier for them to see where I want them to direct their attention if needed. I also have my IFAC, loaded with a tourniquet, bandage, medical tape, and IV line with needle and my personal locater beacon. I also have a flashlight, gerber, camera, camelback, maps, and a PCC/PCI checklist on this vest. A drop mag pouch so I don't lose my empty mags in a firefight. I rest the vest on my shoulder and then heft it over my head securing the right side and then left. I put on my eyepro and hat carrying my helmet and weapon to the TOC. Once there, I read the latest intel for the area and go over any last minute changes to the mission or AO. I then walk to the staging area where my soldiers are waiting for me to give my ramp brief. The vehicles and weapons all ready, soldiers talking about one thing or another. Going over past missions or new things we could do to change up our tactics or keep the enemy from being able to predict any patterns. I smoke a cigarette talking with my PSG and lead vehicle commander to go over the mission routes in depth and pointing out anything that intel has informed us to look out for. Once done, my platoon sergeant shouts to gather around, I give my ramp brief. I go over the mission once again and anything to be on the lookout for. I tell the routes, radio freqs, order of march, and then let the soldiers brief the platoon on the rest. I leave it open and they brief the different TTPs on their own to the platoon. It's random, that way they are all tracking and I know that every soldier has a crystal clear idea of what we will be doing on this mission. I conclude the ramp brief with our medic saying a prayer for the platoon. Then it's game time. The faces of all of us change, our eyes steeled as we put on all our equipment. As they mount the vehicles I do one last check of the vehicles and soldiers, making sure all are in order. I mount the vehicle once everyone is in theirs. I put my helmet on, and place the headset over my ears, hearing the chatter of the other trucks calling ready status up in code. Once all the trucks are good I call for us to move out. The mission has begun...what it will bring we don't know, but whatever it is we are ready...day in...day out.
August 2011
Monotony is a *****. The bad guys are counting on it. They have many nasty little tools of their trade to make for a very short day for anyone on the receiving end of them. They know they cannot take us on head to head, so they hit us for a split second and then vanish. Sometimes we get lucky and nail them, most of the time they are long gone before we have a chance to react. IEDs are always a big threat. There are many different variants and initiation systems. Artillery shells seem to be the most popular type, with homemade explosive being the second most kind. The most devastating kind are called EFPs or explosively formed penetrators. They can slice through pretty much any armor we have and are almost guaranteed to kill the whole truck if it hits the crew compartment. Fortunately they are hard to make and expensive. They can initiate them via cell phone, PIR or passive infrared (motion detector), crush wire (rolling a tire over the wire which completes a circuit initiating the explosion), command wire, or even a timer. The explosions occur suddenly and training takes over. Everything is heightened, your vision, smell, hearing, and emotions. I usually get angry...Then there are RKG-3s. Nasty little things, almost mini variants of the EFP I explained earlier. They are designed to be thrown and this is usually how they are employed. Bad guys like to hide in an alley, behind a wall, near bridges, or in really populated areas and throw them at us while we go by. They are almost never caught and can be devastating if employed correctly or in mass. The good thing is that there are usually indicators to look out for so we can narrow our search for bad guys when out and about. Then there is PSAF, or precision small arms fire...sniper fire. Every time we dismount we are exposed and vulnerable. We know this, we keep moving around, trying not to stay in the same spot to be harder targets to hit. Most the time you see the dust kick up or the reports of the rifle. You try to identify the point of origin...most of the time the attempt is futile. Again, they are long gone by the time we figure it out. We just call it up, go to a more secure area and continue our mission. Rarely there is a gunfight, an actual firefight, one where we can hit back. It's almost a relief. There's a thousand ways to die out here and there is only a few instances when we can do damage back. A firefight is one of them. You get high, adrenaline fills your veins, you feel alive and awake. You see all. To the amateurs you feel invincible; to the initiated you feel aware and know that it's as important to keep your wits as it is to not stand up stupidly to get a better shot at the bad guys. Small things kill. Small mistakes, almost trivial ones, they all can kill. In fact, you can do everything right and still murphy can find you and kill your young stupid ass. Yet, the feeling is there, the rush and excitement, a genuine sense of relief when it is done and an even greater sense of accomplishment that we came out the winners. There is only one winner in these types of things, no such thing as second place. We win a lot. After all is said and done your mind numbs, fatigue sets in, and you ponder all the possible alternatives to what just happened to you. Then you stop yourself because you realize you still have a long way to go and pondering too much means you're not focused. All that can wait until we go back to the states. While here we just have to keep our minds clear. Crystal clear. Remember, it's the small things...At the end of the day, you could be asleep in your bed minding your own business doing everything absolutely right...and one of those nasty rockets or mortars they like to shoot could land in your lap...sigh...FML...oh well, just roll over and go back to sleep, if it's got your name on it, then what can you do...enshalla as they say here. Just another day...
Hawkeye
Banned
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us and thank you for your service (Although we are not compatriots)
It sure sounds to me like you have found your inner peace.
What you see in war is that there is no objective truth or meaning of life and it scares many. The only way to overcome the anxiety is to choose, because you thereby create meaning in your life. Choosing to take on the task to protect the unprotected and as you say "make the impossible possible" it is the true essence of being a soldier. I think you have reached this goal.
It sure sounds to me like you have found your inner peace.
What you see in war is that there is no objective truth or meaning of life and it scares many. The only way to overcome the anxiety is to choose, because you thereby create meaning in your life. Choosing to take on the task to protect the unprotected and as you say "make the impossible possible" it is the true essence of being a soldier. I think you have reached this goal.
brinktk
Active member
Thank you. I mostly got back ok lol. I'm wishing I could go back now... Ill have more of these up soon as long as people will read them.
MatthewAngel
Active member
Hey I just found your thread while lurking and I have to ask...Have you ever lost your cool dealing with the situations that occurred during your deployment? How was your conduct and those in your units' conduct? Did anything happen during your deployment that showed a little glimmer of hope for the people of that country?
brinktk
Active member
Depends on what you mean by "losing ones cool". I was always able to react accordingly during combat. Does that mean there weren't times where I got into a rage and went cyclic on my weapon...no.
We made mistakes, especially at first when we didn't know too much about the Iraqis themselves. Unfortunately, our innocent mistakes could turn deadly for all parties involved very quickly and I'd be lying if I said it didn't happen. But, we learned and over time we were better prepared and better trained to deal with the confusion that comes with operating in a combat environment.
I sure wish I could give a glimmer of hope for that place, but, current events over there are confirming how bad things are getting. Chances are, they're going to get a helluva lot worse before they get better.
What do you mean by "conduct". Define what your definition is and I'll shape my answer in a way that will make sense to you.
Iraqi civilians
Did 460,000 innocent unarmed civilians die in the Iraqi conflict? Wow, I thought the US armed forces took every possible step to try and minimize civilian casualties in this war vs. WW2 or Vietnam where we indiscriminately bombed thousands of civilians.
I could see higher casualties if the in fighting between the different fractions was tallied up but these are combatant's, not civilians.
My brother served in Iraq during Desert Storm and found most Iraqi's were glad to be rid of Saddam. However he made it sound like you had to watch your back. He was a medic and served in Iraq for ~ 6 months.
BTW war is a plague. Because the innocent suffer who often are not affiliated - aligned with any warring parties and just want to live in peace. Two it's a plague for the soldiers lost- wounded, regardless if it's a justifiable cause WW2 or a policing action.
Did 460,000 innocent unarmed civilians die in the Iraqi conflict? Wow, I thought the US armed forces took every possible step to try and minimize civilian casualties in this war vs. WW2 or Vietnam where we indiscriminately bombed thousands of civilians.
I could see higher casualties if the in fighting between the different fractions was tallied up but these are combatant's, not civilians.
My brother served in Iraq during Desert Storm and found most Iraqi's were glad to be rid of Saddam. However he made it sound like you had to watch your back. He was a medic and served in Iraq for ~ 6 months.
BTW war is a plague. Because the innocent suffer who often are not affiliated - aligned with any warring parties and just want to live in peace. Two it's a plague for the soldiers lost- wounded, regardless if it's a justifiable cause WW2 or a policing action.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
The number of civilian deaths seems to vary depending on who is doing the counting, I have seen numbers between 120,000 and 500,000.
I would also point out that those numbers are not solely those killed by US forces but those killed during the invasion and subsequent occupation and includes people killed by the various insurgencies, terrorist attacks, IED's etc.
I would also point out that those numbers are not solely those killed by US forces but those killed during the invasion and subsequent occupation and includes people killed by the various insurgencies, terrorist attacks, IED's etc.
brinktk
Active member
The murders and assassinations that were going on account for a huge portion of the dead. On my second tour, we found between 5 to several dozen dead Iraqis dumped in the Euphrates every. Single. Day. It was even worse in 2006/2007. It's also easy to ratchet up the number when car bombs are killing between 20-250 people every time they go off. The insurgents would blow those several at a time and they seemed to be a weekly, or sometimes daily even, occurrence.
If I were to put a guess on it, I'd say us forces accounted directly for 1/5 of the Iraqis killed. With it dropping off to more like 1/20 during the last 2 years of the war. But that's just a guess based off of what I saw.
If I were to put a guess on it, I'd say us forces accounted directly for 1/5 of the Iraqis killed. With it dropping off to more like 1/20 during the last 2 years of the war. But that's just a guess based off of what I saw.
Thank you for the clarity and for upholding the integrity of the US Army
however difficult it must have been.
brinktk
Active member
Look, I'm not saying that there weren't people who died who should not have...There were, but it was avoided whenever possible. I can only speak for myself and the SOPs and ROE my unit followed...I know there were some units that just shot everything if they received fire...not terribly productive, especially if the insurgents are filming the response. There were also units that really went out of their way to not over react. It was a very dangerous and fine line that we walked...but we walked it nonetheless...