Will the Liberty always be an issue of debate ? my own research brings questions of what and why it took place , I don't think the U.S. tried to sweep it under the carpet , I think the U.S. was at odds of what to do about it , the U.S. had its hands full with Vietnam and didn't need any more problems .
So why do people hate Israel?
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Because there isn't one single recognised Archeologist Jewish or otherwise that can provide evidence of any of the Israeli narrative at all, most of them no longer even try.
There was no diaspora in any century, there was no exodus, Jerusalem was not built by Israelite's, and there was no Israelite conquest of Caanan there is not one shred of archeological evidence to back any of this story up.
Further more DNA indicates that most "Jews" are eastern European with no more link to the middle east than I do as a European New Zealander who's ancestors passed through the region during the great migrations out of Africa so cut the crap you are little more than Polish and Russian colonialists who have made up a grandiose fairytale to justify stealing someone elses land.
Weird so you genuinely don't understand why 1.8 million people crammed into an area the size of a small city who routinely have their infrastructure destroyed, their fishermen shot at and killed who are not allowed to leave the area or trade with the world and who have just had 2000 of their people including around 600 children killed by the Israeli army don't like Israel?
Are you retarded?
However lets talk about Palestinians not mentioning Israel if that is a problem for you then explain where the West Bank is on this map produced by Netanpsycho...
Interestingly enough not one of those countries was called Israel, still if my land was full of say Kiwi's and and due to political cowardice someone gave half of it to say the Chinese in defiance of every international law on the books I would be mighty pissed especially if they then went on a rampage driving out 700,000 of my fellow Kiwis and taking every bit of land they could get their hands on, wouldn't you.
You are not fooling anyone you are nothing more than colonial parasites but keep on with the stories but most fairy stories start with "Once upon a time" yours should too.
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I'm not sure what's your claiming here. But Archaeological evidence of ancient Israel going back to David's time right thru to the Roman occupation has been found. Scrolls, Coins, Tablets, Buildings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Israel
I'm not making any statement about right or wrong concerning the current Israeli Palestinian conflict. But this doesn't change the fact that ancient Israel did exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Israel
I'm not making any statement about right or wrong concerning the current Israeli Palestinian conflict. But this doesn't change the fact that ancient Israel did exist.
About 1200 BC
Canaan has been plundered in every evil way, Askelon has been brought away captive, Gezer has been seized, Yenoam has been destroyed. Israel is devastated, having no seed. Syria is widowed because of Egypt. All lands, they are united in peace. Everyone who roamed, he has subdued him, By the king of Egypt Merenptah.
-Lines 26-28.
-Lines 26-28.
Now you give me some real archaeological evidence of your beloved "Palestinians" besides thousands of metal casings of rockets fired at Israeli civilian towns.
Archaeological evidence of a diaspora and exodus? Do you think they were Hansel and Gretel leaving evidence everywhere so they could be traced back? The evidence is in showing up in another place. Writings of the horrors they went through. Keeping their faith and culture in another place. But you also forget the ones that stayed. Or are you saying that the Romans didn't fight the Jews? That Hadrian called Sextus Julius Severus from Britain for a sightseeing tour? Where did the Jewish communities in Allepo, Alexandria. Damascus and Smyrna, to name a few, came from? Or did Judaism just suddenly popped up al over the world at once? Those communities were descendants from people who left because they were persecuted by Babylonians and Romans.
Now, you give me evidence of "Palestians" living there at that time. Did they fought the Romans? Were they friends of the Babylonians? Did they found flourishing cities?
You keep holding on to that one study of Eran Elhaik, who attacks everyone who does not agree with him and disregard dozens of studies over twenty years from geneticists and historians around the world. You are not looking for the truth, you are just waiting for someone who says what you would like to hear.
from a Forbes article :
"While Elhaik’s work has provided ideological support for those seeking the destruction of Israel, it’s fallen flat among established scientists, who peer reviewed his work and found it sloppy at best and political at worst.
He’s just wrong,” said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a leading researcher in Jewish genetics. “If you take all of the careful genetic population analysis that has been done over the last 15 years… there’s no doubt about the common Middle Eastern origin,” he said. He added that Elhaik’s paper “is sort of a one-off."
He’s just wrong,” said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a leading researcher in Jewish genetics. “If you take all of the careful genetic population analysis that has been done over the last 15 years… there’s no doubt about the common Middle Eastern origin,” he said. He added that Elhaik’s paper “is sort of a one-off."
If Hamas didn't fire rockets at Israeli civilian towns from the backyards of innocent civilan's houses then there wouldn't be a destruction of their infrastructure. If Hammas wouldn't use fishing boats to send terrorists in Israel to kill innocent civilians then Israel doesn't have to fire on fishing boats coming too close.
Not allowed to leave the area and not allowed to trade with the world? You are talking about the Nahal Oz and Karni crossings because they were not secure. Ever heard of the Kerem Shalom crossing? It is a hugely expansive and extraordinarily impressive feat of engineering and logistics andwas sized to handle all of Gaza’s needs if necessary.
Besides a small list of “dual use” materials, Israel imposes no restrictions on Gaza imports. Even some of the “dual use” materials can be imported under certain conditions – for example, international NGOs can import construction materials. Israel allows potentally dual use items, such as CO2, to be imported on a case by case basis as well.
There are no practical limits on how much Gaza can import even if its economy grew dramatically. No limits on fuel. No limits on raw materials for factories (again, except dual use materials.)
There are no practical limits on how much Gaza can import even if its economy grew dramatically. No limits on fuel. No limits on raw materials for factories (again, except dual use materials.)
Export you said? Most of Gaza's export went to Israel and they do not want to buy their products anymore. The collapse of the Gazan export has nothing to do with the boycott but because the Israelis do not buy Gaza products anymore, just as so many Arab countries refuse to buy Israeli products. But that's something you never mention, do you?
Those 2000 of their people including around 600 children would still be alive today if Hamas didn't start firing rockets at Israeli civilian towns.
600 children. Dramatic isn't it? Do you know that a 17 year "old" jihadist killed in battle is listed as a "child"? How many children do you think died from Hamas' own rockets who failed to reach Israel? Hamas doesn't give a warning so the civilians can run away or seek shelter.
However lets talk about Palestinians not mentioning Israel if that is a problem for you then explain where the West Bank is on this map produced by Netanpsycho...
Ah, a good one, I like it. Remember the partition plan of the UN? It says that the eastern border of the Jewish part borders the western border of the Arab part (Arab, not "Palestinian"). But the Arabs refused, so there is no Arab western border and the Jewish eastern border moves up to the next official border which is Jordan's.
Also, that map is not listed in children texbooks.
West Bank is is in fact the Judea and Samaria part that lies west of the Jordan river. It's a name change by the occupiers just as the Roman occupiers changed Judea into Palestine.
So if we change the name Israel into Jacamaka then all is right and peace will return? It's about the Jews dummy, no matter what the name of the country is.
from tha Hamas Covenant: article seven : The Universality of the Islamic Resistance Movement:
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews , when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews , when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
But that is just it, try and link modern Israeli narratives to actual archeological fact, I am not claiming that the area was not inhabited for the past 4000 years I am claiming that the crowd parked there now calling themselves "Israelis" have no more reltionship to the region than I do and are in fact little more than identity thieves.
According to the Israeli narrative there were two massive upheavals of the Jewish population in Palestine one in 600ish BCE by the Babylonians and another in 135AD by the Romans yrt there is nothing in Babylonian or Roman records to indicate this ever happened, there were certainly revolts during those times and both parties admit to taking captives but they never removed entire populations.
Now you might say what does this have to do with anything?
Well it is very important as Israels story only works if the land was stripped of its inhabitants because that makes Palestinians nothing more than 7th century arab immigrants.
However given that at no stage in history does any one of the empires in the region record a mass population shift (odd in a region that wrote every event down) it is perhaps a sign of a fable rather than an actual event.
So that leaves us with a more logical story:
Instead of the mass deportation of an entire population after these rebellions the victors instead did what they did after every other successful campaign, they took thousands of prisoners as slaves, as many military leaders as they could find for their triumphs and the children of the leaders as hostages and went home.
Why is this important?
It is important because it leaves the general populace in the region.
What makes that important?
Because it makes the following more likely, the population that remained most likely Jewish and Pagan has lived there for thousands of years and through that time they adapted to suit the religion of the empire ruling the land at the time so when the Romans showed up they adopted Roman religions, when the Byzantines ruled they adopted Byzantine religion and when the Arabs rolled in they adopted Arab religions.
(Note: I am not saying there was no immigration to the region from occupying empires just that the general populace are indigenous to the region)
But most importantly it says that the Palestinians are infact the indigenous people of the region and Israelis are European colonists who have adopted a manufactured identity to justify land theft.
Basically it is the equivalent of me adopting the mayan religion and laying claim to Peru on the grounds on "historic ties" using the argument that Peruvians never existed, were manufactured in 1921 and are infact little more than Spanish immigrants because they speak Spainish.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Would that be the same partition plan and borders Israel agreed to adhere to in its declaration of independance?
ScarabVenom
Active member
He's having hardship trying to understand that the issue isn't the Jewish population having a territory of their own, it's an issue of how they acquired the territory, how they go about trying to protect the territory and how skilled they are at creating a hostile atmosphere around them.
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
Sweden is getting closer to recognize the Palestinian state....I will say more when I know more about it
It can lead to nothing, but somebody needs to be the first one, we will see what happens.
It can lead to nothing, but somebody needs to be the first one, we will see what happens.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I think Sweden is vying for second to recognise now as the British house of commons passed a non-binding motion this morning 274-12 to recognise Palestine.
There is no doubt that these are symbollic gestures unless someone is prepared to toss the Israelis off Palestinian land but they are steps in the right direction and hopefully with time enough pressure can be applied to the Israelis to bugger off back to their internationally recognised borders.
UK lawmakers pass motion to recognise Palestine as a state
Lawmakers voted by 274 to 12 to pass symbolic non-binding motion
First published: Mon, Oct 13, 2014, 22:27
http://www.irishtimes.com/cmlink/irishtimesworldfeed-1.1321046
British lawmakers have voted in favour of recognising Palestine as a state in a move that will not alter the government’s stance on the issue, but that carries symbolic value for Palestinians in their pursuit of statehood.
Lawmakers in Britain’s lower house of parliament voted by 274 to 12 to pass a non-binding motion stating: “That this House believes that the Government should recognise the state of Palestine alongside the state of Israel as a contribution to securing a negotiated two-state solution.”
Britain does not classify Palestine as a state, but says it could do so at any time if it believed it would help peace efforts between the Palestinians and Israel. Government ministers were told to abstain and the non-binding vote will not force Britain to recognise a Palestinian state.
The motion was tabled by Labour’s Grahame Morris, who said it was right to take the “small but symbolically important” step. Tobias Ellwood, the Middle East minister, said the UK government is a “staunch supporter” of Israel’s right to defend itself, but added that its settlement-building makes “it hard for Israel’s friends to make the case that Israel is committed to peace”. – (Reuters)
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...n-to-recognise-palestine-as-a-state-1.1962265
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
That is good news, I like it even though it's only symbolic. Especially form one of the more powerful nations in Europe. It cannot be ignored if the other two follows (France and Germany)
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
France is now making noises in that direction:
France: Palestinian recognition shouldn't be merely symbolic
Reuters
Published: 10.14.14, 18:57 / Israel News
However, if negotiations between the Palestinians and Israel fail, Paris "would not shirk its responsibilities" but would recognize the Palestinian state, the minister, Laurent Fabius, said in answer to a question in parliament.
His remarks came a day after British lawmakers voted to recognise Palestine. Their vote will not alter government policy, but it does carry symbolic value as Palestinians pursue international recognition.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4580675,00.html
The Germans on the other hand tend to stay well back on issues with Israel but have indicated in the past that they could recognise Palestine but not really turned words into actions, however with Britain and Sweden breaking the ice so to speak the rest of western Europe could follow suit.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Good to see you get a few minutes off from promoting apartheid however I had expected more.
Welcome aboard Israel's apartheid bus
Defense Minister Ya’alon is kowtowing to the settlers at the expense of the image of the State of Israel internationally and its remaining shreds of morality.
Haaretz Editorial | Oct. 27, 2014 | 2:40 PM |
7
Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon has instructed that Palestinian laborers be prohibited from using Israeli public transportation to travel between their homes in the West Bank and work in Israel. According to the report by Chaim Levinson in Haaretz on Sunday, Palestinian laborers will not be allowed to board buses traveling directly between central Israel and the West Bank at the end of their work day.
The minister’s decision comes despite the fact that the Israel Defense Forces see no security risk in Palestinians traveling on Israeli buses, because the only ones to do so are those with entry and work permits who undergo careful security checks when they enter Israel. Thus, Ya’alon’s decision is purely a result of his having given in to the longtime pressure exerted on him by settlers demanding that Palestinians not be allowed to board “their” buses.
The minister’s decision reeks of apartheid, typical of the Israeli occupation regime in the territories. One of the most blatant symbols of the regime of racial separation in South Africa was the separate bus lines for whites and blacks. Now, Ya’alon has implemented the same policy in the occupied territories. In so doing, he justifies the claims of those who brand Israel internationally as an apartheid state.
Ya’alon’s decision also means a heavier burden on the Palestinians in the West Bank. Few among them are allowed to work in Israel, and those who are allowed to work in Israel face an exhausting, humiliating and painful experience on their way to and from work. Now, Ya’alon is making it even harder on them.
The defense minister made it his goal a long time ago to satisfy the settlers; to dance to their tune and make almost all their wishes and demands come true. He does this out of cynical personal and political considerations - to reinforce his status as a leader of the extreme right.
The saga of his murky relations with the American administration following his disparaging remarks about Secretary of State John Kerry and other senior officials shows how much Ya’alon longs for the settlers’ embrace.
This time, Ya’alon is kowtowing to the settlers at the expense of the image of the State of Israel internationally and its remaining shreds of morality. And all by abusing a few tens of thousands of Palestinians permitted to make a paltry living in Israel.
Ya’alon’s has instructed the Civil Administration to prepare for the implementation of his decision until it can be done in practice. It would be better for him to annul it immediately and remove this shame from Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.622908
But then what do you expect from a nation who's own president refers to as "sick".
Rivlin: Violence an epidemic in Israeli society
October 19, 2014 4:52pm JERUSALEM (JTA) — The epidemic of violence permeates every sector of Israel, the country’s president, Reuven Rivlin, said in an address.
“It is time to honestly admit that Israeli society is ill – and it is our duty to treat this disease,” Rivlin told the Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities on Sunday at a conference titled “From Xenophobia to Accepting the Other.”
“The tension between Jews and Arabs within the State of Israel has risen to record heights, and the relationship between all parties has reached a new low,” he said. “We have all witnessed the shocking sequence of incidents and violence taking place by both sides. The epidemic of violence is not limited to one sector or another, it permeates every area and doesn’t skip any arena. There is violence in soccer stadiums as well as in the academia. There is violence in the social media and in everyday discourse, in hospitals and in schools.”
The president added that he has been verbally abused, including on his Facebook page.
Rivlin said that Israeli academia can play a “crucial role” in reducing violence in Israeli society.
“The academic sphere, in which cultures and languages are taught from a desire to get to know them deeper, where there is a ‘you and I’ affinity, there is a place which generates not only learning but also a real encounter,” he said.
Rivlin called on the academy to be “a space which prepares a new generation of Israeli citizens to talk to each other, and especially to learn how to listen to each other.”
Read more: http://www.jta.org/2014/10/19/news-...-an-epidemic-in-israeli-society#ixzz3HYjbbSrz
Welcome aboard Israel's apartheid bus
Defense Minister Ya’alon is kowtowing to the settlers at the expense of the image of the State of Israel internationally and its remaining shreds of morality.
Haaretz Editorial | Oct. 27, 2014 | 2:40 PM |
Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon has instructed that Palestinian laborers be prohibited from using Israeli public transportation to travel between their homes in the West Bank and work in Israel. According to the report by Chaim Levinson in Haaretz on Sunday, Palestinian laborers will not be allowed to board buses traveling directly between central Israel and the West Bank at the end of their work day.
The minister’s decision comes despite the fact that the Israel Defense Forces see no security risk in Palestinians traveling on Israeli buses, because the only ones to do so are those with entry and work permits who undergo careful security checks when they enter Israel. Thus, Ya’alon’s decision is purely a result of his having given in to the longtime pressure exerted on him by settlers demanding that Palestinians not be allowed to board “their” buses.
The minister’s decision reeks of apartheid, typical of the Israeli occupation regime in the territories. One of the most blatant symbols of the regime of racial separation in South Africa was the separate bus lines for whites and blacks. Now, Ya’alon has implemented the same policy in the occupied territories. In so doing, he justifies the claims of those who brand Israel internationally as an apartheid state.
Ya’alon’s decision also means a heavier burden on the Palestinians in the West Bank. Few among them are allowed to work in Israel, and those who are allowed to work in Israel face an exhausting, humiliating and painful experience on their way to and from work. Now, Ya’alon is making it even harder on them.
The defense minister made it his goal a long time ago to satisfy the settlers; to dance to their tune and make almost all their wishes and demands come true. He does this out of cynical personal and political considerations - to reinforce his status as a leader of the extreme right.
The saga of his murky relations with the American administration following his disparaging remarks about Secretary of State John Kerry and other senior officials shows how much Ya’alon longs for the settlers’ embrace.
This time, Ya’alon is kowtowing to the settlers at the expense of the image of the State of Israel internationally and its remaining shreds of morality. And all by abusing a few tens of thousands of Palestinians permitted to make a paltry living in Israel.
Ya’alon’s has instructed the Civil Administration to prepare for the implementation of his decision until it can be done in practice. It would be better for him to annul it immediately and remove this shame from Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.622908
But then what do you expect from a nation who's own president refers to as "sick".
Rivlin: Violence an epidemic in Israeli society
October 19, 2014 4:52pm JERUSALEM (JTA) — The epidemic of violence permeates every sector of Israel, the country’s president, Reuven Rivlin, said in an address.
“It is time to honestly admit that Israeli society is ill – and it is our duty to treat this disease,” Rivlin told the Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities on Sunday at a conference titled “From Xenophobia to Accepting the Other.”
“The tension between Jews and Arabs within the State of Israel has risen to record heights, and the relationship between all parties has reached a new low,” he said. “We have all witnessed the shocking sequence of incidents and violence taking place by both sides. The epidemic of violence is not limited to one sector or another, it permeates every area and doesn’t skip any arena. There is violence in soccer stadiums as well as in the academia. There is violence in the social media and in everyday discourse, in hospitals and in schools.”
The president added that he has been verbally abused, including on his Facebook page.
Rivlin said that Israeli academia can play a “crucial role” in reducing violence in Israeli society.
“The academic sphere, in which cultures and languages are taught from a desire to get to know them deeper, where there is a ‘you and I’ affinity, there is a place which generates not only learning but also a real encounter,” he said.
Rivlin called on the academy to be “a space which prepares a new generation of Israeli citizens to talk to each other, and especially to learn how to listen to each other.”
Read more: http://www.jta.org/2014/10/19/news-...-an-epidemic-in-israeli-society#ixzz3HYjbbSrz
Yossarian
Forum Resistance Leader
I find that assumption discriminatory to all the other minorities who live in Israel, we have to strive to protect everyone's rights, not create first and second class citizens by choosing favoritism. Same for Palestine.
Talking ideals is nulled and mute if we do not protect everyone equally under the scope of law.
176.000 first size then more that's 430.000 in reserves is same strenght as Germanys in 2009 then the smaller sizes get's on alert. Finland destroy german size 5 year later when they bring around german size on ca 230.000 for Germany 2010 and for Finland 2015 and Germany don't will have same like Finland.
Todays it's ca 182.000 for Germany. Big Air Force in strenght ca 63000 soldiers and pilots.
Israel was strong in six day war in 1960's. Five countries against Israel and Israel won.
Todays it's ca 182.000 for Germany. Big Air Force in strenght ca 63000 soldiers and pilots.
Israel was strong in six day war in 1960's. Five countries against Israel and Israel won.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I am not so sure relying on past wins is a good idea, Egypt in particular are now a far stronger and better equipped military than they have been in the past.
Israels only real combat experience in the last 30 years has been fighting the likes of Hezbollah and Hamas who at best could be described as light forces and suppressing Palestinians throwing stones which isn't hard to accomplish when you are the only one fielding a MBT against mostly rock throwers and the occasional AK-47/RPG combo.
I would also argue that without the 3 billion dollars annually the Americans give the Israeli military it could not afford to keep an army of that size for very long.
Israels only real combat experience in the last 30 years has been fighting the likes of Hezbollah and Hamas who at best could be described as light forces and suppressing Palestinians throwing stones which isn't hard to accomplish when you are the only one fielding a MBT against mostly rock throwers and the occasional AK-47/RPG combo.
I would also argue that without the 3 billion dollars annually the Americans give the Israeli military it could not afford to keep an army of that size for very long.
ScarabVenom
Active member
Agreed, what people always fail to remember is the amount of military support the USA gives to Israel. Especially during the 1973 war,
In page 132 from the book Soldiers, Spies and Statesmen: Egypt's Road to Revolt, "Later Sadat recorded in his memoirs that although he learned that American 'tanks landed in Arish, loaded and fueled, and joined the battle immediately.' He did not want to provoke the Americans by bombing the airport."
To be honest, who could have a better ally than this during times of war?