So why do people hate Israel?

[Yossarian]

I support a peaceful and just coexsitance.

But if you take all the land back, what of the Israelies?

And imagine the massive problem this would create, how is that better?

I am being not pro Israeli, but what would YOU do with them?

You have failed to answer this over and over.

I am really not trying to be confrontational, nor will I label you based off my judgements, as you have me, I will except what you wish to and have expressed as your stance.

 

[RayManKiller3]

On the whole I agree with this guy though the only way peace will be attained in the region is to remove the USA from the equation or at least the right of veto.

To Monty:
I don't agree with that. I am sure you know of U.S citizen's frustration with the U.N. Why should a country who pays more than all the rest in the U.N have to give up higher authority rights? This will not go unnoticed about U.S people.


U.S wants the best for both sides, however both sides are playing "hard negotiations". Why should this be seen as U.S fault solely (which you seem to be saying). Israel's main ally is in fact the U.S. Like I said before, as long as Arabs are doing terrorism in the name of Palestinians, the U.S won't feel a need to press Israel into negotiations (as we see their actions as wreckless, but also a way they have to survive). What would you do if you were/are surrounded by complete hostile neighbors?

I do agree that U.S should push Israel to negotiations way more than it does now; however, what if your plan backfires? What if the Palestinians show they truely do not want peace? Are you going to support them still?


To Seno:

I agree with Yossarian; this problem has been going on way too long (and far too complicated) for a simple answer. What you suggest is a great way to send the region into a severe humanitarian crisis (which people will then call the U.S to settle). Either way we go, were still screwed, so we must try to screw up less.

What happens when Palestine get their state? Do you truely believe all the terrorist organizations are going to disband and put down arms? That is kind of naive... This is why your blaming Israel for GT (Global terrorism) means shiznips to me and I couldn't care if their actions bought about GT, it is still unforgivable and should hold no true defense. To also add into this, there is a reason GT started after the creation of Israel. It is not because of just Israel, but it is seen as an accomplished strategy. Media, is what allows terrorism to work and it is the main reason we are just seeing it.



The only real solution to this problem is as we know a 2 state solution:

Jarusalem of course should be governed by the U.N. Israel should not have to accept the Refugees back (for obvious reasons), Palestine should be demilitarized and their border recognized.


A 1 state solution will not work. At this current time, it is a great solution if you want a humanitarian crisis. As I said before: I don't see no one else blasting about how the Jews were expelled from all other countries (Arabs mostly). It is funny how its okay for these Jews (who had nothing to do with Israel) can get their stuff stolen, be eradicated, and ignored, but Israel is a big problem....

 

[Yossarian]

A 1 state solution will not work. At this current time, it is a great solution if you want a humanitarian crisis. As I said before: I don't see no one else blasting about how the Jews were expelled from all other countries (Arabs mostly). It is funny how its okay for these Jews (who had nothing to do with Israel) can get their stuff stolen, be eradicated, and ignored, but Israel is a big problem....

I did not mention out getting burned for this,... but I guess I wll risk it now,

Most of Israel's Arab neighbors either have unequal rights, or direct oppression of Jews living there, this, whether intentionally or not, has pressed more Jews to immigrate to Israel, but do not mistake this to a endless and pointless finger pointing contest.

This has been going of for as long as the state of Israel has exsisted.

As if you are Jewish, from what I can piece together, you cannot even buy land in Palestiene without putting the owner at grave risk.

I KNOW Israel's misjustices to Palestiene. But both parties are as guilty as sin of discrimination and of being the victim.

As for Mr. RayManKiller's qoute of a two State Solution. That's the best we can do for now, and as stated I will support the elmination of misjustices to either side, and coexsisitance, it will be hard, there will be extremists who will oppose peace, on both sides.

But for anything to happen, for us to escape this Medivel attitude and all the ensuring carnage this entails, BOTH sides must give to each other, or BOTH will not gain anything...If anything will lose everything...

 

[senojekips]

I support a peaceful and just coexsitance.

But if you take all the land back, what of the Israelies?

And imagine the massive problem this would create, how is that better?

I am being not pro Israeli, but what would YOU do with them?

You have failed to answer this over and over.

I am really not trying to be confrontational, nor will I label you based off my judgements, as you have me, I will except what you wish to and have expressed as your stance.

No, your statement was not confrontational, it was illogical to the point of being just plain stupid. The whole debate is about ownership and you start by make a sweeping statement that ownership can no longer be considered.

You are jumping ahead of yourself, any decisions as to what happens to the Israelis will be made in the course of the negotiations. Nothing can even be started, until the ownership is settled.

Anyway, you are so worried as to what will happen to the Israelis, I notice you haven't even mentioned once, "what is going to happen to the Palestinians". I think that this is a pretty good indication that your mind is already made up.

If you want my personal opinion as to what should happen to the Israelis, I'd say, "you moved here, so you can move out if you don't want to live under the new ruling".

 

[Yossarian]

If you want my personal opinion as to what should happen to the Israelis, I'd say, "you moved here, so you can move out if you don't want to live under the new ruling".

That may have worked 60 years ago, but now that generations where born and raised there that is almost ridiculous.

The massive potential of violence, potential of extremism on both sides, would create a humanitarian issue that would cripple any newly formed Palestienian state and throw the region into an almost third world state.

Imagine if you will 6 million pissed off and scared residents.

Now 6 million pissed off and worried Palestienians, this helps neither side and would cause great hard ship for both peoples.

I am worried for the people, not the banners.

 

[MontyB]

To Monty:
I don't agree with that. I am sure you know of U.S citizen's frustration with the U.N. Why should a country who pays more than all the rest in the U.N have to give up higher authority rights? This will not go unnoticed about U.S people.

As I have explained many times in the past, if the US wants out of the UN then go.

However that will never happen because in doing so you will be handing over what little influence you have left in world affairs to the next tier of nations and that will spell the end of the USA as a superpower.

So the beauty of this is that the USA needs the UN as much as the UN needs the USA probably more so you arent going anywhere which means if a shake up of the UN meant removing the power of veto then you will learn to live with it.

U.S wants the best for both sides, however both sides are playing "hard negotiations". Why should this be seen as U.S fault solely (which you seem to be saying). Israel's main ally is in fact the U.S. Like I said before, as long as Arabs are doing terrorism in the name of Palestinians, the U.S won't feel a need to press Israel into negotiations (as we see their actions as wreckless, but also a way they have to survive). What would you do if you were/are surrounded by complete hostile neighbors?

No it doesn't the US has repeatedly shown time and again it has sided with Israel and it is seen as the US's fault solely because the US solely is vetoing anything Israel does not want therefore if the US wishes to take part in negotiations it should do so only as a supporter of Israel and stop pretending it is impartial.

As to what I would do if I was surrounded by hostile neighbours that is simple I would:
A) Stop pissing them off.
B) Find a new neighbourhood.

I do agree that U.S should push Israel to negotiations way more than it does now; however, what if your plan backfires? What if the Palestinians show they truely do not want peace? Are you going to support them still?

No they shouldn't push Israel to negotiations they should be dropped from the middle east peace process altogether and any agreement should be negotiated with and ratified by the UN general assembly.

Why wouldn't I support them?
You seem to have missed the bit where I believe they are right to fight for their land and I hope that with time they will get better at it because I suspect it will only be when Israel has the real chance to lose that they will make peace.

 

[LeEnfield]

I think the word HATE on this title is wrongly used, I think what most people want to see is fair play between the two sides and as this is sadly lacking on one side, it then pushes the other side into the use of violence.

 

[senojekips]

That may have worked 60 years ago, but now that generations where born and raised there that is almost ridiculous.

Oh you are telling us nothing, we all know that it worked 60 years ago and we know that it is still working today. You seem to think they there is going to be a painless solution to this, (this is the classic Zionist view as admitted by them), well I can assure you that there is not, and this is why we must see that justice is done, by which I imply justice for those who have been treated like animals for the last 100 years in their own country. What happens to the oppressors I really don't care. personally I hope that they get what they deserve, but I doubt that the civilised world would allow the Palestinians to do to the Israelis what they have done to the Palis, and as for their leaders there is no way, as hanging is now frowned upon.

Imagine if you will 6 million pissed off and scared residents.

There have been millions of pissed off residents there for the last 100 years, but when the perpetrators thought that they would never be called to answer for it, no one cared.

 

[VDKMS]

From what I see now is, we are so far past the point of who rightfully owns the land, that we have no choice but to try to find every avenue for peace between these two groups of people.

I DON"T LIKE IT, so please, this is not really my opion on that first bit.

But, even if you legitimize the claims, what does that solve? If either side settles the claim and gives it to the other, a massive humanitarian crisis will be created that could pass the state of the current one with Palestienians.

I will say this as well.

ALL Palestinians should be given the rights and respect of citizenship, either to their own state, or that of Israel by THEIR INDIVIDUAL CHOICE.

I hate this situation guys I do, but I will not cease to hope for and support any idea of findng a way to give equality and a better quality of life for Palestinians, as well as free travel to all Relgious areas throughout the occupied territories and Israel for all Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

Guys, if anyone could kindly explain, kindly please, IF one side backed down and gave claim to the entire region, what of the other peoples?

Will they be evicted or eradicated?

These are two cultures with strong ancient cultural history in this region.

Looking at the really screwed up situation now,

What can today's world do to assist in ensuring all the peoples in this region are given equal rights, free travel, and a franchised acknowledgment of their rights in the region of Palestiene/ Israel?

I would hate to see either side suffer any further injustices or crimes.

And will not abandon any hope that a lasting and just peace and equality can one day exisist for all peoples in this region...

Regardless of who owns the land.

I like this, really I do. The problem is religion. Islam never alows to be taken over. Radical Islam gets their power from poor people. So you battle Radical Islam with Economics. When we translate that to the Palestine-Israel conflict it is in the interest of Israel to get a prosperous community in Palestine (not rich leaders as at the present). Someone who has a good running business is not easaly inclined to attack a Jew and see his property shot to pieces. (On July 23, 2004 a family attempted to physically prevent the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades from setting up a rocket launcher outside their house. Members of the brigade shot and killed one boy wounded 5 others.)

Of every 100 Palestinian workers, 11 work in Israel and the settlements compared to 10 in 2009, a new survey from the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics found.

Average daily wages for settlement workers were 150 shekels ($44) per day, compared to 76.9 ($22) in the West Bank and 46.2 ($13.50) in Gaza, the latest research showed.

The figures for settlement workers are likely to concern leaders of the Palestinian Authority, who have said they will outlaw all work in Israeli factories across the Green Line by 2012.

The three paragraphs above are excerpts from PCBS: More workers in Israel in 2010 and Settlement workers paid double average wage.

Why would the PO prevent his own people to earn twice as much? Are they affraid that their "nothing to lose" startegy will fail so that it is harder to pursue them to attack Israel?

 

[VDKMS]

No, your statement was not confrontational, it was illogical to the point of being just plain stupid. The whole debate is about ownership and you start by make a sweeping statement that ownership can no longer be considered.

His comment is not illogical nor stupid but your idea that the debate is about ownership, is. Ownership is subordinate to rule of law. If the government needs your property they buy it form you (democracies - you must sell) or just take it (dictatorial regimes). Anyway, bye bye ownership.

If you want my personal opinion as to what should happen to the Israelis, I'd say, "you moved here, so you can move out if you don't want to live under the new ruling".

70% of the Jews ar sabras, 1,5 million are Arabs. Those are all people born in Israel. They didn't move. Expelling people is illegal. The ones who moved here, moved legally. Whether you like it or not, they all are going to stay.

A two state solution is the only legal solution.

 

[VDKMS]

However that will never happen because in doing so you will be handing over what little influence you have left in world affairs to the next tier of nations and that will spell the end of the USA as a superpower.

They were able to avoid a vote for Palestinian membership, so their influence is bigger than you think.

No it doesn't the US has repeatedly shown time and again it has sided with Israel and it is seen as the US's fault solely because the US solely is vetoing anything Israel does not want therefore if the US wishes to take part in negotiations it should do so only as a supporter of Israel and stop pretending it is impartial.

US arms embargo against Israel in 1948
In the 1956 Suez war the US forced Israel to give back conquered territory.
In 1981 the US suspended a strategic cooperation agreement because of the annexation of the Golan Heights.
The U.S. (Bush) imposed an arms embargo on spare parts for helicopters

The reason why the US vetoes a lot of UN resolutions is not because they side with Israel but because of the so called Negroponte Doctrine :

John Negroponte, the United States Ambassador to the United Nations, stated (during a closed meeting of the UN Security Council) that the United States will oppose Security Council resolutions concerning the Israeli–Palestinian conflict that condemn Israel without also condemning terrorist groups. This became known as the Negroponte Doctrine, and has been viewed by officials in the United States as a counterweight to the frequent resolutions denouncing Israel which are passed by the UN General Assembly.

No they shouldn't push Israel to negotiations they should be dropped from the middle east peace process altogether and any agreement should be negotiated with and ratified by the UN general assembly.

The US should push Israel, the Arabs should push the Palestinians and the UK, France, Arabs and UN should finance the return of the refugees to Palestine.

 

[VDKMS]

I think the word HATE on this title is wrongly used, I think what most people want to see is fair play between the two sides and as this is sadly lacking on one side, it then pushes the other side into the use of violence.

I disagree. Every problem has at least two sides. We know the Israeli one, if you want to know the Palestinian one look at their charters (PO, Hamas).

 

[VDKMS]

Oh you are telling us nothing, we all know that it worked 60 years ago and we know that it is still working today. You seem to think they there is going to be a painless solution to this, (this is the classic Zionist view as admitted by them), well I can assure you that there is not, and this is why we must see that justice is done, by which I imply justice for those who have been treated like animals for the last 100 years in their own country. What happens to the oppressors I really don't care. personally I hope that they get what they deserve, but I doubt that the civilised world would allow the Palestinians to do to the Israelis what they have done to the Palis, and as for their leaders there is no way, as hanging is now frowned upon.

What country? Who was president, king or prime minister? What kind of government did they have? Democratic? Authoritarian? Islamic? Show me.
PS - I have put the words "in their own country" in his quote in bold.

Wasn't part of "their country" (your words not mine) annexed by Jordan (West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza) for a while? Why didn't they revolted against that?

 

[MontyB]

Congratulations 20 years ago I was very pro-Israel, a mistreated people returning to their homeland and defending it against overwhelming odds, it was the stirring story of triumph against evil of our time and then one day when I was about 15 or 16 I got into a discussion with my father about just that because I could not understand his disdain for Israel and it ended with him just telling me to stop listening to the "official" story and go find my own answers.

So here we are 20+ years later I have looked for myself and the longer I looked the more I found myself agreeing with his views at which point I ran into Spike on these forums and I though damn I am not pro-Israel but he is downright extreme in his views until I read your and RayManKiller3 views on this issue and the more I read them the more I found myself moving fully into Spikes camp, well done.

 

[senojekips]

What country? Who was president, king or prime minister? What kind of government did they have? Democratic? Authoritarian? Islamic? Show me.
PS - I have put the words "in their own country" in his quote in bold.

There are far more uses of the word "country" than you are aware of. Ask any English speaking member. Other than that, "ownership" of land (or "country") needs no "Government" or leader. We've been through all this before, possibly several times. (As usual)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So here we are 20+ years later I have looked for myself and the longer I looked the more I found myself agreeing with his views at which point I ran into Spike on these forums and I though damn I am not pro-Israel but he is downright extreme in his views until I read your and RayManKiller3 views on this issue and the more I read them the more I found myself moving fully into Spikes camp, well done.

I too was once Pro-Israel for exactly the same reasons as yourself and my somewhat "extreme" views are something that have only developed over time, after I repeatedly found that when dealing with Zionists and their lunatic supporters, "if you gave them an inch, they will take a mile",... and not only that, they will also steal the tape measure and the box that it came in.

In short, you really can't have a "reasonable" discussion with Zionists, as it seems that they, like the very worst of their fundamentalist Muslim cousins, are brainwashed from birth. In the case of the Zionists, with a rabid dogma of racial superiority, hatred and self pity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think the word HATE on this title is wrongly used, I think what most people want to see is fair play between the two sides and as this is sadly lacking on one side, it then pushes the other side into the use of violence.

I disagree. Every problem has at least two sides. We know the Israeli one, if you want to know the Palestinian one look at their charters (PO, Hamas).

And don't forget to look at the reasons why the Palestinians settled for ratbag political leadership like Hamas, who were only elected for one reason,.... They would resist Israel. It took 20 years of Israeli terror, before the Palestinians resorted to this extreme measure, as it was their only choice, whereas Zionist leaders had been openly speaking of the removal of the Palestinian people from their own country from Israel's earliest days and before. The evidence of which is there for all to see to this day,... and getting worse by the day.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

One thing I think you can be sure of, is that, if there were no Israeli terror visited upon the Palestinian people, the world would never have ever seen political groups like Hamas, or for that matter Al Qaeda, or a dozen other fundamentalist Muslim terror organisations.

 

[RayManKiller3]

Congratulations 20 years ago I was very pro-Israel, a mistreated people returning to their homeland and defending it against overwhelming odds, it was the stirring story of triumph against evil of our time and then one day when I was about 15 or 16 I got into a discussion with my father about just that because I could not understand his disdain for Israel and it ended with him just telling me to stop listening to the "official" story and go find my own answers.

So here we are 20+ years later I have looked for myself and the longer I looked the more I found myself agreeing with his views at which point I ran into Spike on these forums and I though damn I am not pro-Israel but he is downright extreme in his views until I read your and RayManKiller3 views on this issue and the more I read them the more I found myself moving fully into Spikes camp, well done.

I don't care if you were pro-Israel or anti-Israel. The only reason I am here is because Seno seems to want to blame Israel for everything possible (which you are somewhat doing as well; even claiming U.S do not want peace there).

U.S wants peace in the Mid-East; it is after all in its interest (oil being there). It gains nothing by war in that area.

I didn't even know of the Negroponte Doctrine until VDKMS stated it. I will see if this is really the reason U.S turns down U.N resolutions against Israel. I do agree that Israel should not be protected as a saint, but I will not stand here and let Palestine be protected while everyone attacks Israel.

You attack Israel and I will attack Palestine; I don't even see what you disagree with when it comes to VDKMS's and my statements to make you feel Seno is more correct on this. After all, we are only here because Seno has the urge to attack Israel (even justifying terrorism, which is immoral). There is too much contradiction in his statements. He ignores everything Palestine does that gets the response of Israel, but attacks anything Israel does that gets the response of Palestine.

I understand there are laws, but remember, there are two sides of the fence. This issue has not been resolved as far as I know. Many legal scholars been debating this topic for years with no results leaning more on either side.

As I constantly say and I will state it one more time; I am here solely because I do not like the biased attacking of Israel and belief that Palestine is a saint in these threads.


Here are some points I stated:

Quotes from those who are against their own people do not mean that their people are wrong. There are sympathizers on each side (so saying holocaust survivors are against Israel means nothing without an undisputable legal reason). I also find it funny how Seno mentions this, but calls the Palestinians who side with Israel as despicable.

A 1 state solution will not work for either side. It has potential to bring about a crisis (and when the crisis occurs, who is going to stop it?)

Veto I agreed should be removed as it gives too much power to the permanent SC members, but I do not think it should be removed just yet. If they are going to remove the veto, there should be other reforms as well (such as requiring those who vote on humanitary issues should be required to take part in that issue they voted for). This will counter any thoughts of "I will vote for protecting Iraq from Iran, but won't send troops or supplies" type of stuff.

If someone sells their land, its their choice regardless of the purpose of the buyer. This is legal, though unethical. (give me a law that forbids this. )

We must not correct wrongs by doing something wrong (removal of Israel)

Israel should not be required to take back the Palestinian refugees.

Israel should stop settlement building past the 1967 borders and if they continue, it must be acknowledged that it will be given back to Palestine once they have their state (the Palestine state).

If you condemn Israel for their wrong doings, you must also condemn Palestine for their wrong doings (if any) as well

Morality is subjective and unless majority agrees to what is moral or immoral, one should refrain from using it against another person.


From everything I know for the situations of the Mid-East, I find myself siding with Israel more than Palestine, but I do disagree on many things Israel have done or is doing. I stated before that just because someone supports a country do not mean it supports all of its actions.

U.S have quite a lot of influence still Monty so your statement of "little influence left in the world" is pushing it

I don't know Monty, you just accused Israel of not wanting peace yet you agree a two state solution is the only way. If Palestine is the one that really do not want peace and you still defend them, is this not contradictory?

 

[RayManKiller3]

In short, you really can't have a "reasonable" discussion with Zionists, as it seems that they, like the very worst of their fundamentalist Muslim cousins, are brainwashed from birth. In the case of the Zionists, with a rabid dogma of racial superiority, hatred and self pity.

You sounded quite silly when you said this, as we can say the same for you when it comes to your "reasonable" discussion. I believe you are the one that resorted to insults and flame before any of us here.... If you call those statements "reasonable" then I don't want to know what is unreasonable to you.

I think you are the one that really should be ignored rather than anyone else here... With this statement you sound like a conspiracy nut in the U.S lol. Whatever though, that is your belief, I will not contest it.

The fact you shown that Palestine chose Hamas simply because they "will resist Israel" do not help in the fact that many believe Palestinians to be ignorant... This means they chose Hamas without thinking what Hamas was doing (terrorism), and the consequences...

I think it was too late to stop Israel from becoming a state once the U.N decided it so. Hamas was created in 1982, it was already too late to remove Israel by then (which I support Israel's existence anyways as legal).

 

[senojekips]

You s ---snip-- yways as legal).

I'm not here to rub your tummy and massage your damaged ego. I attempted to show you why things are the way they are. The fact that you are too brainwashed or stupid to take it onboard is what drives people to "tell you like it is".

You're quick to whine about your damaged ego, but don't have a second's thought for a nation of people who have been reduced to living in fear like hunted animals, disenfranchised, beaten, starved and murdered for over 100 years.

That is why I don't care what you "think",... you have the logic and understanding, of a pot plant.

 

[MontyB]

From everything I know for the situations of the Mid-East, I find myself siding with Israel more than Palestine, but I do disagree on many things Israel have done or is doing. I stated before that just because someone supports a country do not mean it supports all of its actions.

U.S have quite a lot of influence still Monty so your statement of "little influence left in the world" is pushing it

It is this statement that always amuses me it is the same thing as when I hear "I don't want to cause trouble... but" and "I don't want to appear racist... but" there is an old saying that says "nothing said before the but means anything"

As for your reading of my quote well that is symbolic of the argument you have posted, you have taken fragments and twisted them to justify your argument where most people would read it as "diminishing power" you have read it as "no power".

I don't know Monty, you just accused Israel of not wanting peace yet you agree a two state solution is the only way. If Palestine is the one that really do not want peace and you still defend them, is this not contradictory?

How can it be contradictory, if I could see a way to remove Israel from the map without creating a humanitarian nightmare of epic proportions I would push the 1 state solution however I can not see a way to do this therefore I push the 2 state solution.

 

[Yossarian]

I'm not here to rub your tummy and massage your damaged ego. I attempted to show you why things are the way they are. The fact that you are too brainwashed or stupid to take it onboard is what drives people to "tell you like it is".

You're quick to whine about your damaged ego, but don't have a second's thought for a nation of people who have been reduced to living in fear like hunted animals, disenfranchised, beaten, starved and murdered for over 100 years.

That is why I don't care what you "think",... you have the logic and understanding, of a pot plant.

Alright I think I get your meaning here,

Let's kill all Israelis, wipe them out and burn every document and piece of the old Testement mentioning them that no one will every remeber even their truimphs or tradegies....

Because what country will except 6,000,000 refugees? How many extremist groups out for blood for your new one State solution will be created?

How many people who sound just like you, but who have copy and pasted Palestine as the "evil brainwashing war pig criminals" and launch rockets over their fence now? Defeating the purpose of Israel's violence by simply creating a new extremsit hate circle in the region to plague any new Palestinian state?

How effective a genocide are we going to need to accomplish this?...

This is why I push what I have mentioned on ideas for a two state agenda so adamantly...

Both parties can't have something all to themselves so aparently we still abide by 12th century justice and the only logical next step is to simpley murder the other side....because that WORKS.:-|