Sir Basil H. Liddell Hart Quote

[sandiclark49]

Hi!

I found this quote while researching for an essay on Sir B.H. Liddell Hart.

Sir Basil H. Liddell Hart said:

“There are two thousand years of experience to tell us that the only thing harder than getting a new idea into the military mind is to get an old idea out”

It came from his book 'Thoughts on War'. I apologize if this has already been listed.

Sandi

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Hi!

I found this quote while researching for an essay on Sir B.H. Liddell Hart.

Sir Basil H. Liddell Hart said:

“There are two thousand years of experience to tell us that the only thing harder than getting a new idea into the military mind is to get an old idea out”

It came from his book 'Thoughts on War'. I apologize if this has already been listed.

Sandi

Yep, the military is quite conservative and it makes them quite predictable. There is a danger to fight the previous war and not the new one.

 

[lljadw]

Hi!

I found this quote while researching for an essay on Sir B.H. Liddell Hart.

Sir Basil H. Liddell Hart said:

“There are two thousand years of experience to tell us that the only thing harder than getting a new idea into the military mind is to get an old idea out”

It came from his book 'Thoughts on War'. I apologize if this has already been listed.

Sandi

The quote is correct, but coming from Liddell Hart.....

 

[BritinBritain]

The quote is correct, but coming from Liddell Hart.....

And? What point are you trying to make? If there is a point of course.

 

[BritinBritain]

Yep, the military is quite conservative and it makes them quite predictable. There is a danger to fight the previous war and not the new one.

Doulas Haig used the same tactics during WW1 as he used in the Anglo Boer War, getting thousands of men killed.

He was told to change is tactics as Britain was running out of men.

 

[lljadw]

And? What point are you trying to make? If there is a point of course.

Liddell Hart is not a good source, better : he is a very bad source .

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Liddell Hart was a military theorist and he was proponing the indirect approach instead of the Clausewitzian direct approach. Liddell Hart was also arguing for the mechanized warfare and having a strong air force. Liddell Hart was influenced by Sun Tzu and his ideas about finding the enemy's weakness rather than attacking him where he is strong.

 

[MontyB]

Liddell Hart was a military theorist and he was proponing the indirect approach instead of the Clausewitzian direct approach. Liddell Hart was also arguing for the mechanized warfare and having a strong air force. Liddell Hart was influenced by Sun Tzu and his ideas about finding the enemy's weakness rather than attacking him where he is strong.

To be fair pretty much everyone is influenced by Sun Tzu as he paints with a fairly wide brush.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

To be fair pretty much everyone is influenced by Sun Tzu as he paints with a fairly wide brush.

Military theorist during the 18th and 19th century weren't when they didn't know who Sun Tzu was. The Art of War wasn't translated to English until the early 20th century. The majority of the military theorist began to rethink warfare after the Great War and during this process, they found Sun Tzu. Liddell Hart was a veteran of the Great War and he was very critical toward the military doctrine based upon Clausewitz theories of war.

Sun Tzu's theories aren't specific, but they have common sense. Some Russian commanders used similar theories during Napoleon's campaign in Russia. The Russian commanders probably didn't know about Sun Tzu, but they figured out similar theories by using common sense.

 

[MontyB]

Military theorist during the 18th and 19th century weren't when they didn't know who Sun Tzu was. The Art of War wasn't translated to English until the early 20th century. The majority of the military theorist began to rethink warfare after the Great War and during this process, they found Sun Tzu. Liddell Hart was a veteran of the Great War and he was very critical toward the military doctrine based upon Clausewitz theories of war.

Sun Tzu's theories aren't specific, but they have common sense. Some Russian commanders used similar theories during Napoleon's campaign in Russia. The Russian commanders probably didn't know about Sun Tzu, but they figured out similar theories by using common sense.

This is my point they are common sense ideas that were used well before Sun Tzu and by leaders long after Sun Tzu who had no access to his writings.
I have the same argument with people who insist that our laws are based on the 10 commandments yet empires as far back as the Assyrians and probably further used almost identical laws as they make sense once people started living in and forming communities.

Let's be honest Sun Tzu's Art of War is less than 80 pages, I doubt he covered the topic in depth.

 

[lljadw]

Liddell Hart was a military theorist and he was proponing the indirect approach instead of the Clausewitzian direct approach. Liddell Hart was also arguing for the mechanized warfare and having a strong air force. Liddell Hart was influenced by Sun Tzu and his ideas about finding the enemy's weakness rather than attacking him where he is strong.

His indirect approach was impossible in WWI.
In the thirties his reputation in the army was very bad,he was considered as an intriguer . (See his role in the elimination of Deverell as CIGS ) After the war he collaborated with the defeated German generals to restore his reputation.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

His indirect approach was impossible in WWI.
In the thirties his reputation in the army was very bad,he was considered as an intriguer . (See his role in the elimination of Deverell as CIGS ) After the war he collaborated with the defeated German generals to restore his reputation.

The indirect approach was a reaction to the first world war. The controversy about Liddell Hart and his ideas is if the Germans read his and Fuller's theories about tank/mechanized warfare or if the Germans figured it out by themselves. They shared the same experience as the French and the British.

NATO and the Soviets used former Wehrmacht officers to create the dual German armed forces when both sides of the iron curtain needed experienced officers to do that. Similar as both sides used Germans to develop the space programs

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

This is my point they are common sense ideas that were used well before Sun Tzu and by leaders long after Sun Tzu who had no access to his writings.
I have the same argument with people who insist that our laws are based on the 10 commandments yet empires as far back as the Assyrians and probably further used almost identical laws as they make sense once people started living in and forming communities.

Let's be honest Sun Tzu's Art of War is less than 80 pages, I doubt he covered the topic in depth.

I view Sun Tzu as the foundation for a theoretical framework in a similar way as I view Niccolo Machiavelli's The Prince as a theoretical framework as a guideline for political power. Both books are lesser than 100 pages.

 

[lljadw]

The indirect approach was a reaction to the first world war. The controversy about Liddell Hart and his ideas is if the Germans read his and Fuller's theories about tank/mechanized warfare or if the Germans figured it out by themselves. They shared the same experience as the French and the British.

NATO and the Soviets used former Wehrmacht officers to create the dual German armed forces when both sides of the iron curtain needed experienced officers to do that. Similar as both sides used Germans to develop the space programs

1 The Bundeswehr and the Volksarmee were based not on the theories of the defeated Wehrmacht, but on the theories of the US armed forces and of the Red Army .
Both were only extensions of the US and Soviet forces ,who provided the money .And who provides the money decides the tune.
Besides, the Kremlin nor the Pentagon trusted their German ''allies ''.
2 The importance of the German scientists for the development of the space program is very much exaggerated : the NASA would send John Glenn to the moon even without von Braun. It was the same for the Jets : US have their Jets already in WWII, before the Germans .

 

[BritinBritain]

: US have their Jets already in WWII, before the Germans .

Incorrect, The first successful jet aircraft, the Heinkel He 178, flew only five days before the start of the war, on 1 September 1939. The first German Jet fighter was the ME 262

The first jet fighter to be developed in the United States was the Bell P-59 Airacomet; its maiden flight took place on October 1, 1942, about 5 months earlier than the date on which the British Gloster Meteor first flew.

In Great Britain, a Royal Air Force officer, Frank Whittle, invented the gas-turbine engine that would power the first British jet, the Gloster E. 28/39, which made its first flight on May 15, 1941.

The Gloster Meteor went into full production 12 January 1944, the first Meteor F.1, serial EE210/G, took to the air from Moreton Valence.

The de Havilland Vampire is a British jet fighter which was developed and manufactured by the de Havilland Aircraft Company. It was the second jet fighter to be operated by the RAF, after the Gloster Meteor, and the first to be powered by a single jet engine.On 20 September 1943, the first DH.100 prototype, serial number LZ548/G, conducted its maiden flight from Hatfield Aerodrome; it was piloted by Geoffrey de Havilland Jr., the company's chief test pilot and son of the company's founder. This flight took place only six months after the Meteor had performed its own maiden flight; the first flight had been delayed due to the need to dispatch the only available engine suitable for flight to America to replace one destroyed in ground engine runs in Lockheed's prototype XP-80 jet fighter.

If the Air Ministry had listened to Frank Whittle the Battle of Britain could have been fought with RAF jet aircraft instead of piston powered.

 

[lljadw]

Incorrect, The first successful jet aircraft, the Heinkel He 178, flew only five days before the start of the war, on 1 September 1939. The first German Jet fighter was the ME 262

The first jet fighter to be developed in the United States was the Bell P-59 Airacomet; its maiden flight took place on October 1, 1942, about 5 months earlier than the date on which the British Gloster Meteor first flew.

In Great Britain, a Royal Air Force officer, Frank Whittle, invented the gas-turbine engine that would power the first British jet, the Gloster E. 28/39, which made its first flight on May 15, 1941.

The Gloster Meteor went into full production 12 January 1944, the first Meteor F.1, serial EE210/G, took to the air from Moreton Valence.

The de Havilland Vampire is a British jet fighter which was developed and manufactured by the de Havilland Aircraft Company. It was the second jet fighter to be operated by the RAF, after the Gloster Meteor, and the first to be powered by a single jet engine.On 20 September 1943, the first DH.100 prototype, serial number LZ548/G, conducted its maiden flight from Hatfield Aerodrome; it was piloted by Geoffrey de Havilland Jr., the company's chief test pilot and son of the company's founder. This flight took place only six months after the Meteor had performed its own maiden flight; the first flight had been delayed due to the need to dispatch the only available engine suitable for flight to America to replace one destroyed in ground engine runs in Lockheed's prototype XP-80 jet fighter.

If the Air Ministry had listened to Frank Whittle the Battle of Britain could have been fought with RAF jet aircraft instead of piston powered.

Allied Jet Aircraft were operational before German jet aircraft .The HE 178 was only a prototype.The serial production of the Me 262 started only in 1944.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

1 The Bundeswehr and the Volksarmee were based not on the theories of the defeated Wehrmacht, but on the theories of the US armed forces and of the Red Army .
Both were only extensions of the US and Soviet forces ,who provided the money .And who provides the money decides the tune.
Besides, the Kremlin nor the Pentagon trusted their German ''allies ''.
2 The importance of the German scientists for the development of the space program is very much exaggerated : the NASA would send John Glenn to the moon even without von Braun. It was the same for the Jets : US have their Jets already in WWII, before the Germans .

Wrong. When NATO was created the West needed to create the armed forces in West-Germany. NATO wouldn't like to have 18 year old generals in the Bundeswehr. Hans Speidel and Adolf Heusinger, both high ranked officers in during the Second World War and later, high ranked officer in the Bundeswehr. Speidel served as a NATO commander of all ground forces in CENTCOM. Reinhard Gehlen, Major General during the war created the Gehlen Organization shortly after the war and became the foundation for the West-German intelligence service.

East Germany, The highest ranked ex-wehrmacht officer was Vincenz Mueller Lieutenant General. He regained that rank when he became the chief of staff in the East German armed forces.

These were the highest ranked officers in the dual German armed forces. Both sides needed trained officers and they used those they had available.

 

[BritinBritain]

Allied Jet Aircraft were operational before German jet aircraft .The HE 178 was only a prototype.The serial production of the Me 262 started only in 1944.

The ME262 entered service 19 April 1944 with Erprobungskommando 262 at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg.

The US Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star entered in 1945. Before World War II ended, however, two American pre-production Lockheed YP-80A Shooting Star fighter jets did see limited service in Italy with the USAAF on reconnaissance, in February and March 1945. Because of delays in delivery of production aircraft, the Shooting Star saw no actual combat during the conflict.

So once again you are wrong.

 

[lljadw]

Wrong. When NATO was created the West needed to create the armed forces in West-Germany. NATO wouldn't like to have 18 year old generals in the Bundeswehr. Hans Speidel and Adolf Heusinger, both high ranked officers in during the Second World War and later, high ranked officer in the Bundeswehr. Speidel served as a NATO commander of all ground forces in CENTCOM. Reinhard Gehlen, Major General during the war created the Gehlen Organization shortly after the war and became the foundation for the West-German intelligence service.

East Germany, The highest ranked ex-wehrmacht officer was Vincenz Mueller Lieutenant General. He regained that rank when he became the chief of staff in the East German armed forces.

These were the highest ranked officers in the dual German armed forces. Both sides needed trained officers and they used those they had available.

The Soviets did not need the Volksarmee and did not trust the East Germans . US need the Bundeswehr but did not trust the West Germans .

 

[lljadw]

The ME262 entered service 19 April 1944 with Erprobungskommando 262 at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg.

The US Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star entered in 1945. Before World War II ended, however, two American pre-production Lockheed YP-80A Shooting Star fighter jets did see limited service in Italy with the USAAF on reconnaissance, in February and March 1945. Because of delays in delivery of production aircraft, the Shooting Star saw no actual combat during the conflict.

So once again you are wrong.

The Gloster Meteor did already active service in July 1944 and was as good or better than the Me 262
The Me 262 did active service not in April 1944 but in July 1944. Erprobungskommando is a test unit , not a combat unit .
And the Germans would be better off without the Me 262 .