Sights or Point Shooting in CQB Situations

In fact, the answer is nope.

As to the index finger method, I think it's fair to say that the US Military's suppression of the finger pointing method from 1912 - 1941 due to the design fault of the 1911, kept it from becoming popular.

That's logical as the 1911 was the standard issue sidearm for US forces for a total of about 70 years. And even the very unbright probably can get "the message" when told to not do something for 30 to 70 years.

As to why a modest modification was not made to the 1911 to fix the design fault, I don't have a clue except to think that the Sight Only crowd held sway and the traditional way was their way.

Remember that in days of old people like Giodana Bruno was burned at the stake, and Galileo was sentenced to life under house arrest for going against the dogma - that the sun revolved around the earth. And how about the Salem witch trials.

Also, having been through boot camp long long ago, I don't think many privates would object to what they were being told to do by their NCO's. :) :)

..........

In Shanghia, Fairbairn and Sykes had good success with their target focus method which was built upon by Applegate in WWII.

The Applegates method was even taught at the FBI Academy for a few years after WWII, until a new "boss" came around. Then it was pushed aside as the "MT" came into being and became the cats meow.

Since that time most all police were and still are trained to use the sights for shooting.

In the 1970's, the NYPD SOP 9 study of some 6,000 + police combat cases, and studies since then have established that: If you are going to be shot and/or killed there is a 90% chance that it will be at less than 15 feet.

In most all cases in the SOP 9 study, the sights were not used.

And Officers shot with one hand with few exceptions.

The MISS rate was 80% +/-

For more details see:
http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm

Or check out the RAND corporation study of the NYPD which was funded by the NYPD: http://www.pointshooting.com/1arand.htm

IMHO, a miss rate of 80+% is a very very bad joke.

And to not accept the truth and do something about it, such as making a study of shooting methods to determine factually what does and does not work in CQB, and then share that info with the law abiding gun owning public, is morally wrong on the part of "the Government", gun makers, and trainers.

At least the NRA has recognized the facts, and supprots the use of Point Shooting for CQ self defense. http://www.pointshooting.com/1anra.htm

..........

So, as I said at the start, NO things have not evolved or gotten better. If anything, since the 1940's they are worse.

You don't have to like what is, but it is what it is.

Hopefully discussions such as this one, will lead to better understanding of what the situation is, and to improvments down the road.

I'm an optomist.
 
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Hi Guys,

Put together a simple video about the slide stop pin problem.

If you plan to use a 1911 for self defense, you may want to take a look at it. You can file it under: you can take a horse to water, but you can't make em drink.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WhOCoQfjw

Also, I just updated my page of WW II pics and fly-by videos.

For those interest in such, here's the link: http://www.pointshooting.com/1aflyby.htm

And here's a nice group pic:

multione.jpg
 
Hi again folk. I didn't expect th video on the1911 to be received with smiles, but I thiink it is best to deal with what is.

Here's a link to an article on the fatal flaw of the 1911: http://www.pointshooting.com/police1.htm

And to add a bit more fuel to the fire:

Here's a new U-Tube Video: EZ Point Shooting with a pistol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=511eT8Iwvd0

And here's a link to a very brief article about the method that employs our natural ability to point at objects, and which the US Army says can be used to engage targets rapidly and accurately.

http://www.pointshooting.com/1awhyps.htm

If you are satisfied with your ability to Point Shoot, the information may not be for you, but it might help others in getting comfortable with Point Shooting.
 
I do pretty well with the index finger method at the range, but I doubt I could do well with it under stress.
 
5shot said:
Hi Guys,

Put together a simple video about the slide stop pin problem.

If you plan to use a 1911 for self defense, you may want to take a look at it. You can file it under: you can take a horse to water, but you can't make em drink.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WhOCoQfjw




=
Click to expand...
Show me a video of the 1911 malfuctioning because of the pressure on the slide stop/take down high speed. That was all a rehash of your same old unsupported mental masturbation. Having fired 100,s of thousands of rounds from 1911 using indexing and never putting a slide out of function doing so, let me reinterate.............you're full of it.

If thats the best you can do at 15 and 10 yards with S&W MP's you need to get away from side arms or did you shoot those targets with a Shot Gun? Christ thats shabby. Nice touch with the airsoft gun at the beginning of the video though (Ghey).
 
if you stop to aim at 5 or less yards your probably dead. Secondly I was trained to shoot to kill not to make someone not a threat. The only way I will consider someone not a threat in combat is if hes dead. I've seen first hand and had my father (also a marine) tell me about wounded men continuing to fire even when on the ground during vietnam. If he aint dead hes a threat. '
 
Low-tec aiming aid 4 fast, automatic, and accurate aiming
at close quarters.

My latest video.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLrJBYSYsok"]YouTube - Aiming Aid For Fast, Automatic, & Accurate Aiming[/ame]

The aiming aid is patented, but individuals are welcome to add one to their personal gun/s at their own risk and expense. I have the patent, so I can say that. US 6023874

Ditto for Police Agencies.

http://www.pointshooting.com/1ahowto.htm
A link to info on how to do that.

Best regards for 2010...........
 
Okay, I just went through six pages of worthlessness

If some folks here want to get a good idea of serious pistol, rifle, and shotgun craft.

Take a Magpul Course, Go through a couple of courses at Gunsite, and maybe a Larry Vickers course or two.


Magpul Dynamics: Art of the Tactical Carbine


Magpul Dynamics: Art of the Tactical Carbine - Volume 2


Magpul Dynamics: Art of the Dynamic Handgun


Magpul Dynamics: Art of the Dynamic Shotgun
 
!

Here's a link to the Detroit Police shooting. It shows what reality is.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at2LfqrYbhw"]YouTube - Detroit Police: Attack Video Shows 'Heroism'[/ame]

Per the literature and stats, if you are going to be shot or killed there is an 80% chance that it will be at less than 20 feet.

Also in an extensive study of Police Combat (the NYPDs SOP9), officers with few exceptions fired with the strong hand.

I think one should train for what is, not what may be.

Also, my focus is on defensive shooting for your average home defender or gun owner, not military assault tactics using a pistol, which I think would be stupid at best and suicidal at worst.

When I was in the army I carried an M1 rifle, M1 carbine, and a grease gun at various times. No pistol.
 
5.56X45mm said:
If some folks here want to get a good idea of serious pistol, rifle, and shotgun craft.

Take a Magpul Course, Go through a couple of courses at Gunsite, and maybe a Larry Vickers course or two.


Magpul Dynamics: Art of the Tactical Carbine


Magpul Dynamics: Art of the Tactical Carbine - Volume 2


Magpul Dynamics: Art of the Dynamic Handgun


Magpul Dynamics: Art of the Dynamic Shotgun
Click to expand...

Damn it man Costa doesn't even gorilla glue a piece of tin with an angle on his pistol frame! How can that be training? :jump:

BTW 5shot your being talked about like a two dollar hootchie on most reputable gun boards,

As far as reality, I'm going with Larry Vickers reality over yours.
 
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What are these guys training for? Is this just to enhance their skill of 'self-defense'. Or is this sport shooting... To my untrained eye, this seems like some overzealous gun-lovers getting ready to get shipped over to Afghanistan.
 
Flying Saucers, Sight Shooting, and Self Defense

FLYING SAUCERS, SIGHT SHOOTING, AND SELF DEFENSE

[This article was written in 2000. What was true then, is still true in 2012.]

If you have a handgun at home, you probably bought it with the thought in mind that you could use it for self defense. And, you probably have been trained to use one or both sights for aiming and shooting it.

Well, if you think you will be able to use your handgun and training in a real self defense situation, you could be dead wrong.

Darrell Mulroy, a trainer and one of the owners of Plus P Technologies in Minneapolis, MN, [Darrell died in 2003] made a review of 900+ videos of real shootings. He found that Sight Shooting was not used in any of them.

Here is what he said about Sight Shooting: "You still ASSUME you will look at the gun in a real shooting. Wish we could find it on REAL videos of such things. We are still looking 900+ videos later."

Believing that Sight Shooting can be used in real close quarters shootings, is like believing in flying saucers.

There are a lot of good and honest folks who believe in flying saucers, and some have even said they have taken rides in them. Now, I don't doubt their honesty and sincerity a bit, but it would be nice to see a video or two of some flying saucers coming over low and slow.

There also are a lot of good and honest folks who believe that Sight Shooting can be used in real close quarters shootings. Some say they have used it themselves, or they say that they have seen it used. I don't doubt their honesty and sincerity either, but it would be nice to see a few videos of Sight Shooting being used.

I have seen many shooting videos. In them, the shooters do not aim. They just point their guns towards a target and blast away. Sight Shooting training, if they had any, goes out the window, and what you end up with is Point and Blast shooting with terrible accuracy. According to the FBI, the police miss rate is 83 percent.

In reviewing 900+ shooting videos, you could expect to find a few cases of gun operator error in that Sight Shooting was not used. But when there are 900+ cases of gun operator error in 900+ videos, something is amiss, and seriously so.

There is a growing body of scientific knowledge that deals with fight/flight situations and what happens in them. It provides scientific reasons why Sight Shooting is just not practical for use in close quarters shootings. But, even if you knew all the whys and wherefores, it would not change the fact that it is not used.

This information is not met with open arms by Police Agencies, trainers, and others in the gun community. It usually causes a general uprising among sight shooters, many of whom would like nothing better than to use the messenger for target practice. But no matter how much consternation it causes, it is irrefutable.

You can hoot and holler about it, or discuss and argue about who did this, that, or whatever. The exchanges, usually end up being futile exercises in trying to assign or shift blame, or save face. Nothing really gets resolved, changed, or improved.

Much of the new information on close quarters shootings comes from in-car video cameras. They are silent observers with perfect recall of what they hear and see. They don't care if or why something happens, or who or what caused it. They don't think, get confused, take sides, or have agendas. They just show what happens, and they do it frame by frame.

The negative reception the information gets, and the turmoil it causes, is understandable. It never was available before, and it brings into question long and strongly held beliefs and traditional ways.

The information poses the question of whether or not trainers are teaching an impractical method of applying deadly force in close quarters life and death situations. It also brings into question, statements made by those involved in shootings. This is not a happy situation, but hard facts, are hard facts, and they raise hard questions.

There are alternative shooting methods that are immediately available for use. And they require very little or no training for effective use. They deal only with the very narrow and vital area of aiming and shooting in close quarters. Nothing else is changed. They are simple and practical, and they can be used with current guns as is.

The alternative shooting methods are not new, but they are not widely accepted by the powers that be.

One such method is AIMED Point Shooting, or P&S. It was most recently and successfully tested a few years ago, at the Vermont Police Academy.

[The method was not part of the official training, it was presented to new VSP members by Walter Dorfner, the long time lead firearms instructor for the VSP. Walter died in 2001.]

P&S is fast, instinctive, automatic, and accurate. It can be used at day or night, in good light or bad, and under a wide variety of conditions. It is a no-brainer which according to the scientific literature, is just what is needed for effective use. Here is what a State Legislator, said about it.

"I was taught the P&S method by my father 36 years ago and taught it to both my daughters when they started shooting. Until today, I never even knew it had a name. It was just the way I was taught to shoot. It works!"

It would be nice to know if it is practical for use in real shootings. That information could be a real life saver for Police, and for the millions of civilians who have a handgun at home for self defense.
Since the Police have the in-car cameras, that information can only come from them.

To get it, one or more Police Agencies will have to step forward and test it or another alternate method of shooting.

The watchful eyes of in-car cameras, will quickly tell which is practical for use in real shootings. There are hundreds of thousands of Police, and millions of civilians who should be interested in the information.

Are there any volunteers out there?

Per FBI Uniform Crime Reports, during the last ten years, [prior to 2000] Police Officers have been shot and killed at the rate of one every seven days, and thousands and thousands have been wounded during that time. In addition to the human costs of those tragedies, millions and million of our tax dollars have been lost to them and the legal actions that flow from them. And unless changes are made, you can expect more of the same for the next ten years.

As far as I know there is no government agency that is responsible for providing "consumer user" type information to the millions of gun owning citizens, nor is there a private agency that has taken on that responsibility and which also has the ability to obtain it.

The ATF and the Federal Trade Commission do not deal with the issue of consumer safety and guns. The Consumer Products Safety Commission, by its charter, is exempted from dealing with firearms. And, the Occupational Safety And Health Administration does not deal with consumer issues, only worker concerns.

In short, no one is "in charge" in this area.

It would be good to know which method or methods of self defense shooting is or are the best, as that information could save Police Officers from injury and death. It also could have life saving value for the millions of civilians who have a handgun at home.

The recent [2000] extensive newspaper coverage and attention paid to Firestone tire blowouts, where Firestone tires MAY be linked to 46 deaths over a ten year period, is laudable from a consumer protection standpoint.

But it is perplexing when it is compared to 500 Police Officers deaths in the same ten year period that are directly linked to training to use an obviously impractical method of shooting in life or death Close Quarters situations, and about which little has been done to resolve this long standing and continuing tragedy.

..........

It is now 2012, and 600 more Police Officers have been shot and killed at the rate of one every seven days, and thousands upon thousands have been wounded in the past 12 years.

Obviously, Police are continuing to be trained in an impractical method of shooting for use in life or death close quarters situations, and which is a proven cop killer.

In the war in Afghanistan, 1,777 US troops have been killed in the in the past ten years, and thousands have been injured. And billions and billions of dollars have been spent on the war.

In the United States of America, 1,100 Police Officers have been killed in the past 22 years, and thousands are injured each year. To me that means that there's a real war going on in the United States, and nobody seems to care. Makes me both sad and mad.
 
Ted said:
What are these guys training for? Is this just to enhance their skill of 'self-defense'. Or is this sport shooting... To my untrained eye, this seems like some overzealous gun-lovers getting ready to get shipped over to Afghanistan.
Click to expand...

Holy bring back the dead through the Lazurios pit and Ra's al Ghul Batman!

My reply to this is over a year old....

Chris Costa and Travis Haley are to former special forces operators that are now firearm instructors. They teach and develop courses for the US Armed Forces, Law Enforcement, and Civilians. I've taken three courses through Magpul Dynamics and they're good courses. The majority of students are cops and soldiers. Some were Joe Q Citizen looking to improve their skills for self defense shooting (remember carrying of firearms for self defense is legal in the majority of the USA) and some were looking to improve their skills for competition shooting.

Combat shooting skills develop from competition shooting. That is why the US Army has the United States Army Marksmanship Unit and their members compete in just about every high end competition in the USA and the world.

IPSC, IDPA, World SWAT Challenge, Steel Challenge, GSSF, etc.... A lot of what they do is then filtered down to combat units when they rotate out of the USAMU. It's good stuff.... I compete to keep my skills honed and to learn new stuff.
 
if i were entering a room or dark area with a sidearm i would keep the iron sights at eye level and do a quick scan, this is not only fast but since the gun is at a raised firing position even if there is an enemy visible at a longer range i would not need to adjust a grip to get off a solid shot.
 
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