Should military spending be reduced?

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I understand what you're saying about possible future problems, but the whole speak softly and carry a big stick mindset doesn't work if you yell at everyone like the bush administration is doing right now.

Russia is an ailing power that is losing population rapidly, they can't go to war, have you seen what they've done in chechnya? They're horrible at fighting these days and they want to reduce the number of nukes they have because its an unnecessary burden for them.

As far as china is concerned, i'm confident that increased spending of defense in japan and a better alliance with their neighbors south korea and taiwan can offset the problems with china. I know china's defense budget is murky but that's a result of their growing economy, either we work with them and have them as a partner in world defense or make them suspicious and distrustful of us. I doubt its in anyone's interest anywhere to start another cold war.

The defense industry itself needs to be cut back, you mentioned that it provided jobs for people, oh it does outside of the USA. Interesting to note is that contracts for defense are plentiful in many countries.

Country/Total Contracts
England $14,467,558,907
Germany $5,875,778,292
Netherlands $2,898,934,824
France $2,793,612,113
Canada $2,207,393,181
Denmark $1,913,819,561
Japan $1,888,060,336
Bermuda $1,641,013,751
South Korea $1,505,901,909
Saudi Arabia $915,458,201
Greece $744,127,512
Sweden $672,661,339
Kuwait $651,366,569
United Arab Emirates $506,285,005
Italy $440,520,415
Belgium $422,022,106
Bahrain $419,219,209
Qatar $399,636,545
Singapore $358,651,458
Spain $308,251,413
Switzerland $284,346,086
Greenland $258,745,272
Luxembourg $144,833,745
Netherlands Antilles $144,424,966
New Zealand $128,625,559
Israel $127,402,358

Yes, many americans benefit from outsourcing defense spending as you can see. The ones in this country actually benefitting are the scientists and engineers that develop the tech as well as the CEOs of major industries, but not actual blue collar workers.

And yes, i'm well aware we pay our soldiers well, no prob there, keep it that way. I just want to reduce their troop numbers is all, not now because of iraq, but once iraqi security fends for itself. Makes sense no?
 
WarMachine said:
And yes, i'm well aware we pay our soldiers well, no prob there, keep it that way. I just want to reduce their troop numbers is all, not now because of iraq, but once iraqi security fends for itself. Makes sense no?
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No....
 
Those are the countries we're contracting from to buy military goods. Because we don't make a lot of our stuff in this country. So, the american workers aren't benefitting from the defense industry.
 
In regards to the question whether military spending should be reduced, I say no, but I think it shouldn't be increased either. I think the $400-$500 billion is a good mark to stay at. The US has other problems right now (e.g. gas prices, K-12 education, alternative energy, healthcare, Social Security, etc.). The world is becoming a place where nations are beginning to get a little crazy now... (history repeating?)

WarMachine, you remind me a lot of me when I first entered college and took a few History and Political Science 101 classes and I thought I knew everything...
 
our current defense spending levels are just going to increase debt so i don't think they're sustainable at all. Would you ike to have a debt that's 90% of our gdp in the years to come? That's poor management and i don't want to have to deal with that huge cost being payed off over the next century.

Here's that link for the foreign contracts. http://www.publicintegrity.org/pns/report.aspx?aid=385#5

I don't know everything ASTRALdragon but i sure do like common sense prevailing in our politics, for once.
 
If you look at those numbers in comparison with what we spent all together its not as impressive.
 
WarMachine, you ever so conveniently for yourself left out a few key points in your post about "outsourcing".

A large portion of the money going to Germany and Japan is used for rights to maintain our bases on their soil, the same can probably be said for several other nations on that list, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar to name a few.

England, there's a great example, $14 billion? What could we possibly be spending all that money on? Oh wait, we've got that Joint Strike Fighter program going on right now and who's our key partner in the development of that aircraft? Oh yeah, the United Kingdom, that's where much of that money will be going. And don't forget, for several of those nations we turn around and sell them the finished product that we made with the parts they sold us.
 
Justify why we still need expansive military bases in those countries and i'll agree with you. I wouldn't mind if we had their facilities to use and small bases there for whatever we need them, but other than that i have no idea what they're used for anymore after the cold war. They ought to be closed for the most part. Face it, Japan, Germany, UK, Italy, Austrailia and a lot of other industrialized nations with our troops there can defend themselves. We should keep the military hospitals in those areas open, but their main purpose ought to be for support and logistics, you don't spend billions on bases if there wasn't a very large presence there. Assuming a war or something broke out in one of those countries, our forces there wouldn't make a difference, they're too few to fight and too many to support in peace time.

There doesn't seem to be threat to saudi arabia anymore and if it wasn't for their oil we wouldn't have bothered in the first place there. Sane with all those gulf states. Doesn't matter now since they're necessary to support troops. Once iraq becomes stabilized the bases will still be there, just to keep a secure grip on the oil.

A lot of the big contractors on those lists like lockheed martin just build the parts of their american weapons in a foreign country and assemble them here. Hell, GM does that.
 
Fire for effect

The "outsourcing" looked at in perspective and detail... according to WM's own source ( http://www.publicintegrity.org/pns/list.aspx?act=foreign )...
Country Company Overal rank
Bahrain Bahrain Maritime & Mercantile $128,060,326 593
Bahrain Bahrain Petroleum Co $291,158,883 283
Belgium FN Herstal $319,350,995 254
Belgium North Atlantic Assembly $102,671,111 720
Bermuda Accenture $634,762,809 129
Bermuda Tyco International $1,006,250,942 91
Canada Government of Canada $2,207,393,181 42
Denmark Maersk Inc $1,913,819,561 52
England British Nuclear Fuels (BNFL) $691,936,784 119
England BP $2,107,226,427 44
England Marconi Corp $1,721,135,168 60
England Smiths Group $822,215,283 107
England Hanson plc $214,777,330 360
England Rolls-Royce $1,893,580,507 53
England Invensys plc $199,701,756 384
England Meggitt plc $218,960,386 353
England Chemring Group plc $111,785,750 681
England Martin-Baker $241,717,001 320
England Cobham plc $248,870,024 310
England WPP Group $304,029,014 270
England BAE Systems $4,814,022,157 22
England Kidde plc $120,610,120 630
England AMEC plc $477,014,093 167
England VT Group plc $208,670,506 369
England P&O Nedlloyd Container Line $113,644,783 667
England Tramp Holdings Ltd $162,040,576 478
England Hesco Bastion Ltd $102,546,564 721
France CFM International $443,688,964 182
France Sodexho Alliance $148,273,892 526
France Alcatel $353,829,320 238
France Total Fina Elf SA $376,773,336 226
France Publicis Groupe SA $417,174,465 202
France Thales $289,118,682 285
France Zodiac SA $231,960,788 330
France Michelin Group $292,249,703 281
France EuroMIDS $125,135,502 606
France ALSTOM $115,407,461 658
Germany Bilfinger + Berger Bauaktienge $367,607,453 233
Germany Philipp Holzmann AG $1,723,275,972 59
Germany Hochtief AG $116,995,589 649
Germany Siemens AG $376,121,672 227
Germany Theodor Wille Intertrade GMBH $232,493,682 328
Germany SKE Group $370,863,577 230
Germany Pond Security Service $244,949,670 317
Germany Deutsche Telekom $167,344,811 460
Germany Ram Systems GMBH $158,932,357 487
Germany Federal Republic of Germany $1,671,428,334 63
Germany DaimlerChrysler $460,561,944 176
Greece Motor Oil (Hellas) $744,127,512 114
Greenland Greenland Contractors I/S $258,745,272 301
Israel Elbit Systems $127,402,358 595
Italy Eni SpA $207,153,925 373
Italy Cooperativa Muratori Riuniti $117,575,836 646
Italy Italian Post Telephone & Telegraph Ministry $115,790,654 655
Japan Cosmo Oil $152,394,869 512
Japan Sumitomo Heavy Industries $396,844,691 211
Japan Idemitsu Kosan Co Ltd $185,752,570 409
Japan Canon Inc $125,139,958 605
Japan Nippon Oil $112,881,936 672
Japan Tokyo Electric Power Co $247,332,491 313
Japan American Engineering Corp $131,437,811 579
Japan Okinawa Electric Power Co $259,287,702 300
Japan Government of Japan $276,988,308 291
Kuwait Kuwait Petroleum Corp $651,366,569 125
Luxembourg NATO Maintenance & Supply Agency $144,833,745 539
N/A European Utility Companies $791,699,418 111
Netherlands Royal Dutch Shell $1,476,146,182 71
Netherlands Buhrmann NV $110,622,346 686
Netherlands Philips Electronics $157,938,064 491
Netherlands Unilever NV $130,864,449 581
Netherlands Royal Ahold NV $353,118,245 239
Netherlands Getronics NV $217,429,405 357
Netherlands Lionheart BV $378,304,054 223
Netherlands Antilles TBG Holdings NV $144,424,966 540
New Zealand Fletcher Challenge Ltd $128,625,559 591
Qatar National Oil Distribution Co $399,636,545 207
Saudi Arabia Hughes Arabia Ltd $506,281,112 155
Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabian Oil Co $303,404,176 271
Saudi Arabia Mansour General Dynamics Ltd $105,772,913 702
Singapore Neptune Orient Lines $358,651,458 235
Singapore Caltex Corp $116,929,238 650
South Korea Ssangyong USA Inc $437,193,921 186
South Korea Korea Electric Power Corp $183,808,240 416
South Korea SK Global Co $347,131,152 241
South Korea LG-Caltex Oil Corp $228,766,533 334
South Korea Pumyang Construction Co $148,978,414 521
South Korea Hyundai Corp $184,518,908 413
South Korea IL Kwang Industrial Co $112,272,578 678
South Korea Daewoo Corp $112,884,096 671
South Korea Samsung Group $187,541,988 404
Spain CEPSA (Compania Espanola de Petroleos SA) $308,251,413 269
Sweden Kalmar Industries $175,583,227 441
Sweden Skanska AB $273,015,804 294
Sweden SKF AB $115,644,792 656
Sweden Saab AB $284,000,743 287
Switzerland Nestle SA $180,232,330 429
Switzerland ABB Ltd $104,113,756 712
United Arab Emirates Abu Dhabi National Oil Co $284,130,326 286
United Arab Emirates Seven Seas Shipchandlers $222,154,679 346
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Nothing nefarious about this list and if you look at the ranking in terms of overall DOD contracts the highest comes in at only 22 with most coming in in the 230-500 range in terms of companies that get the big bucks from the pentagon. In this age of globalisation this should come as no surprise to anyone, in fact do any of you seriously consider buying a camera from Canon as giving your money away and hurting the American economy? No. You consider price and value when making a purchase and guess what so do the boys in the puzzle palace. Take a look at the names of the companies on this list. You might be surprised to learn some of them are actually foreign owned entities. Some even started out as wholly American companies but in this day of hostile takeovers and leveraged buyouts companies are bought and sold like 5 cent candy... Chrysler, Caltex... Others are household names that are synonymous with quality and value and we don't think twice that their headquarters are in a foreign country... BP, Siemens, Canon...

This is another attempt to take numbers out of context to serve a purpose rather than evaluating them with all the information at hand. Folks this is why you must take everything IN CONTEXT... the numbers stadning alone can seem ominous especially when the dollar amounts are astronomical for the average American raking in 24K a year before taxes. But when you consider the ranking of these contracts, the companies being engaged and the products being bought it makes sense because for a lot of this you buy the same things... Unilever- soap... Canon- cameras and printers... BP- gasoline. The vast majority of DoD spending is spent right here at home and props up the major portion of our ever dwindling outsourced industrial base. Cut spending and you will tank one of the elements of our economy upon which our country has flourished. It was our industrial base in the post WWII world which allowed us to surpass the war torn European powers and seat ourselves in the position many would have us squander in short sighted goals of a "peace dividend".

We went down that road after Desert Storm and had the budget cuts and downsizing of the military and lost many combat veterans and with them irreplaceable wisdom. We drank that Kool-aid and got caught with our pants down as we rushed around the globe trying to put out fires with ill-equipped and undertrained troops. No sir, I do not think the military budget should be cut one iota. Each and every item whether for its military value or its value contributing to the US economy should remain. Even those items which benefit foreign entities should remain for the internecine web of globalised business means that what benefits one country now benefits them all.
 
That's a lot of money that could have been used for oh, i don't know feeding starving people in africa. You don't help refugees by protecting american interests and supporting an endemic global arms industry, that is not something beneficial. I would like to see this defense spending going to into relief operations so that poor islamic countries can be helped and cut off their dependence on warlords with terrorist links, progress is the real key to security, not throwing our money into the black hole of the pentagon budget.

I'd liked to quote someone who knew more about the defense industry than i do, the supreme allied commander of Europe during ww2, and our 34th president.

"There is no way in which a country can satisfy the craving for absolute security, but it can bankrupt itself morally and economically in attempting to reach that illusory goal through arms alone." -- Dwight David Eisenhower
 
So... get a job and send your proceeds to www.ineedahandout.org or put your money where your mouth is and join the peace corps. Bang your head on that wall, it ain't gonna budge.

Somalia ring a bell. We tried it that way... aid, protection, removing the bad guys... its still a toilet, why? Because they, the Somalis, must change it. No one can do it for you. There is not one democracy in the world today that did not earn its peace and stability through its own people fighting and dying for it. Whenever well-meaning outside forces try to intervene and help pull one of these dungheaps out of the toilet it does not stick. Peace and stability are a by-product of democracy and democracy must be earned not given.

The USA is a country it is not a charity organisation. I care about Americans, not refugees. When in a short time I re-don my uniform and my president sends me to fight in another country I will care insomuch as I am told to care but I will fight for my buddy not for some unknown refugee who means sfa to me and mine. We are not the Salvation Army, it is not our duty to bail other people out of the messes they get themselves in. Geo. Washington stated repeatedly that the only true and lasting peace comes from a preparation for war. I don't want absolute security, in fact I like the edge. What I do want is my country to be more than adequately prepared and equipped to stomp any POS that looks askance at us.
 
WarMachine, because I am lazy could you please tell me which nation spends the most money every year on humanitarian aid? I think I know the answer but I want to be sure. Besides, what good would it do to start sending aid to Islamic nations? They would just say "Allah wills it" and use it to further their beliefs rather than be thankful to the US for sending help when all other had ignored them, including their own government(s).
 
05-10%20Largest%20Donors.jpg


http://www.un.org/Depts/ocha/cap/appeals.html

The USA is the largest donor of aid by an extreme margin... check it out.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/TradeandForeignAid/wm630.cfm

and no, this does not include private donations.
:)
 
The US sends the most aid that is true, but other countries dig in deeper to help out. We use .14% of our gdp for aid where as Norway uses .92% of theirs(the gdp data i'm using is from 2003). A modest increase can make a big difference, when we helped indonesia which is a muslim nation during ther indian ocean tsunami, its peolple were very thankful towards america. The fact is that islamic countries will have to admit aid the aid comes from America and their people will think, "hey cool, free food, thank you USA." You underestimate how much these civilian populations think for themselves. Even if their societies are very religious the believers aren't retarded or anything and want more economic assistance. Saying allah wills it is the justification for their dictators being in power. It doesn't make sense for allah to will the "great satan" into helping its believers now does it?

Military spending begets military spending which begets military spending and doesn't end until our country can't afford it anymore. Then we'll wonder why wee need stealth bombers and nuclear submarines anymore. It is a far better investment for America to help developing nations rather than purchase equipment that will become outdated in 10-20 years. If everyone likes us, then terrorists will have to go looking for someone else to vent their rage on since nobody would like to see America hurt at that point. Afterall, Canada isn't worried about Osama bin Laden.

Btw, bulldogg you scared the sh*t out of me with that graph since i didn't see it until i posted this and the page refreshed. :)
 
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WarMachine said:
...when we helped indonesia which is a muslim nation during ther indian ocean tsunami, its peolple were very thankful towards america.
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Actually you are very wrong. The majority of the people in Aceh refused the aid that came from non-islamic countries. They were asking the source of the aid and refused it when told it was from the US. Not all but more than half. In fact most of them are still homeless because they would rather suffer than accept aid from the US. Such is the effect of the fatalistic aspects of Islam for the santri. Aceh is very different from the rest of Indonesia.

I am also very cognisant of the fact you have chosen the softball question over addressing my points.
:read:
 
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If everyone likes us, then terrorists will have to go looking for someone else to vent their rage on since nobody would like to see America hurt at that point. Afterall, Canada isn't worried about Osama bin Laden.
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Oh are you serious. They dont hate us because we dont give them enough money, they think our money is evil. They hate us because of our culture and they cant stand that a western/christian nation is the most powerful nation on earth. Until that isnt the status quo they will continue to hate us. Look how much money weve dumped on Iraq and the blood that has been spilled there, do they appreciate that heck no. They see it as a incursion by the west in their affairs, just as they would massive amounts of aid.

Another example from yourself.

WarMarchine said:
I wish they invested their money in civilian programs, the US took care of their enemies in Afghanistan and Iraq, hell they should be having a float parade or something instead.
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Again no, they do not appreciate anything we do nor will they ever.

As for the Tusnami aid
Us Aid helicopter shot at.
 
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