Shootings

[I3BrigPvSk]

I am not sure about anyone else but I am struggling to find a coherant counter argument that isn't "we need more guns" which is about as well thought out as "reducing restrictions on speed and increasing the number of cars on the road will reduce the number of road deaths" so I propose a change of direction rather than just have George respond to every post with "more guns is the way to stop shootings"

The USA is awash with firearms both legal and illegal if you were to change the rules how do do to ensure you aren't just disarming the law abiding populous?

Most of our nation's simply made pistols which were easily concealed harder to get (read as requiring a special license) and then put restrictions on the transport of rifles (had to be unloaded and in a case in public).

We have very strict laws about how you store your firearms and the police are regularly checking how the licensed owners store their firearms in their homes. We have illegal firearms floating around and yet we don't have the same problem. To get a handgun here you must be a member of a shooting club for six months (minimum) being able to shoot the gold medal. But it doesn't stop there. Through the years the gun owner must be active in the club and participate in the clubs competitions. If he or she fails with that, the firearm license is terminated immediately and the police will confiscate the firearms. The license can be revoked if the gun owner is punished for other violent crimes, such as domestic violence, sexual assault, and other violent crimes

 

[MontyB]

We have very strict laws about how you store your firearms and the police are regularly checking how the licensed owners store their firearms in their homes. We have illegal firearms floating around and yet we don't have the same problem. To get a handgun here you must be a member of a shooting club for six months (minimum) being able to shoot the gold medal. But it doesn't stop there. Through the years the gun owner must be active in the club and participate in the clubs competitions. If he or she fails with that, the firearm license is terminated immediately and the police will confiscate the firearms. The license can be revoked if the gun owner is punished for other violent crimes, such as domestic violence, sexual assault, and other violent crimes

We have similar rules regarding handguns although I circumvented it a little by going with a collectors license first and then got my handgun endorsement followed by a restricted and military style later, to maintain those licenses I get a random police inspection yearly.

Generally the inspection is informal, takes about 2 hours (30 mins to check storage, 1.5 hours of playing with the collection).

With regards to illegal (unregistered) firearms most of ours came when they changed the rules, initially you just needed to take a gun safety course and the firearms were registered but not the owner, after the Aromoana shootings they changed the rules to register the owner and a lot of people never renewed their license thus a lot of unregistered weapons are out there.

I'm not calling for a complete disarmament of firearms from the law abiding populous.

How about a UK type system? Every citizen has to apply for a licence. Each applicant has a criminal/police check and an assessment with a doctor to make sure there are no mental issues? All weapons must be securely locked up when not in use and must be concealed when carried in public. Anyone that doesn't follow this loses their firearms. Anyone caught with a firearm and no licence goes to jail. Anyone that mishands or misuses their firearms loses their licence and goes to jail. There a annual checks to ensure the applicant is still safe to own their firearms.

Other countries manage to control firearms properly. Why can't the US?

With the exception of the doctors assessment your system is more or less the same as ours and despite all that I still can legally own a small arsenal in a country with very little gun crime.

 

[JOC]

Yes ones hears so much about these extremely rare but very highly publicized shooting by crazed kids who finagle an often legal gun to go nuts with and gun people down at schools etc. The real problem is that people can buy a friggen weapons on the street and commit crime. Like narcotics, guns have a way of making there way onto the street and black-market, this should be stopped. Also we as citizens of the USA we have the right to bear arms, but no civilian needs an automatic weapon. However don't even begin to question our ability to hunt pls.

 

[MontyB]

Yes ones hears so much about these extremely rare but very highly publicized shooting by crazed kids who finagle an often legal gun to go nuts with and gun people down at schools etc. The real problem is that people can buy a friggen weapons on the street and commit crime. Like narcotics, guns have a way of making there way onto the street and black-market, this should be stopped. Also we as citizens of the USA we have the right to bear arms, but no civilian needs an automatic weapon. However don't even begin to question our ability to hunt pls.

This triggers one of the problems I have, explain to me what the problem is with a law-abiding citizen owning an automatic?


Your problem is not firearms it is the free for all nature you have allowed them into society, by definition law-abiding people don't commit crimes and therefore are no threat or danger owning an automatic weapon.


but you have very lax control on sales, ownership and little if any control on sales of secondhand weapons, it isn't hard to see why your criminal world is awash with them, here, for example, every weapon I own is registered to me and it is illegal to sell secondhand firearms to people who do have a license, I also have to report any theft as soon as it is discovered.



We also have a large number of unregistered firearms but because you cant wander the streets with them taking them out in public is not a good idea, firearms to us are solely for hunting and pest elimination and you would have your arms license revoked and weapons seized if you tried telling them it was for "protection".

 

[JOC]

This triggers one of the problems I have, explain to me what the problem is with a law-abiding citizen owning an automatic?
QUOTE]


An automatic weapon is unnecessary for either hunting or sport shooting. As for self protection in NYS (where I live weapons cannot be carried around while loaded. One can only load them until you get to the range or hunting grounds. Exception being a special pistil permit which is highly regulated. So tell me why a "so called law abiding citizen would require an automatic weapon, what's the reasoning here unless we get onto some high hated BS, that well if you can own a single barrel shotgun you should be able to also own an AK-47"? BTW, hearing some strong anti US sentiments here that have nothing to do worth the any weapons issues.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

This triggers one of the problems I have, explain to me what the problem is with a law-abiding citizen owning an automatic?
QUOTE]


An automatic weapon is unnecessary for either hunting or sport shooting. As for self protection in NYS (where I live weapons cannot be carried around while loaded. One can only load them until you get to the range or hunting grounds. Exception being a special pistil permit which is highly regulated. So tell me why a "so called law abiding citizen would require an automatic weapon, what's the reasoning here unless we get onto some high hated BS, that well if you can own a single barrel shotgun you should be able to also own an AK-47"? BTW, hearing some strong anti US sentiments here that have nothing to do worth the any weapons issues.

If we take a closer look at the AR-15 and similar firearms. The majority of them are chambered for the 5.56, which is pretty useless caliber for hunting. Hunting is quite popular around here and humans have been hunting since the beginning of time. The majority of our hunters do it to fill their freezers with meat. Sweden divides hunting into two categories, class one and class two. The class one firearms are rifles and the lowest caliber allowed for class one is the 6.5x55, the most popular calibers are either 308W or 30-06. There are hunters having firearms with bigger calibers, but these calibers usually destroy too much meat on the animal. The municipalities here have their own hunters who the police call when an animal have been hit by a car and ran off into the forest. These hunters usually have firearms with 300WM or something like that. They need more powerful calibers if they need to find an injured bear. The class one weapons are used for deer, moose, wild boar, caribou, and bear. The class two are shotguns and they are used for bird hunts, rabbits, and other smaller animals. To be hunter here requires passing a background check, passing the courses for both classes and passing the shooting test. When all this is done. the hunter must buy a weapon safe, send the receipt to the police and the receipt of the weapon he or she desires to buy. The police also inspect the gun owners storage of the weapons. A hunter is allowed to have three rifles and three shotguns.

We have collectors here, but they are few and far between. They are usually looking for rare firearms or firearms from a specific manufacture. I had a chat with one, he was a colonel in the army. He wasn't interested in firearms after WWII. He was interested in some of the German weapons from the war. He really wanted a Fallshirmsjäger rifle.

There is one thing we might need to consider. The majority of the illegal firearms floating around have at one point being legal. If the transition from being legal to illegal is more difficult. One way to achieve it is to store the firearms safer than having them in a closet

 

[Capt Frogman]

Yes ones hears so much about these extremely rare but very highly publicized shooting by crazed kids who finagle an often legal gun to go nuts with and gun people down at schools etc.

I don't think they are "extremely rare". There's one at least once a year.....

The real problem is that people can buy a friggen weapons on the street and commit crime. Like narcotics, guns have a way of making there way onto the street and black-market, this should be stopped.

I completely agree. However, very few (if any?) of the mass shootings involves illegally held firearms.

Also we as citizens of the USA we have the right to bear arms, but no civilian needs an automatic weapon. However don't even begin to question our ability to hunt pls.

It's good to see an American with a common sense approach.

No one is questioning your ability to hunt? I would in fact welcome it as that's the only reason that any civilian should want a firearm.

 

[Capt Frogman]

BTW, hearing some strong anti US sentiments here that have nothing to do worth the any weapons issues.

There are no anti-US sentiments, just a frustration that individuals like George can't see the obvious problems and the answer to every problem is to get more firearms.

 

[MontyB]

This triggers one of the problems I have, explain to me what the problem is with a law-abiding citizen owning an automatic?
QUOTE]


An automatic weapon is unnecessary for either hunting or sport shooting. As for self protection in NYS (where I live weapons cannot be carried around while loaded. One can only load them until you get to the range or hunting grounds. Exception being a special pistil permit which is highly regulated. So tell me why a "so called law abiding citizen would require an automatic weapon, what's the reasoning here unless we get onto some high hated BS, that well if you can own a single barrel shotgun you should be able to also own an AK-47"? BTW, hearing some strong anti US sentiments here that have nothing to do worth the any weapons issues.

No one outside a combat zone requires an automatic weapon but then it could be argued that no one outside the racing industry requires a car or the fishing industry requires a boat, it is not about "requires" it is about "wants".


In a genuinely free and civilised society full of people who follow the law people should be allowed to own whatever they like.


The fact is law-abiding people are not a threat to anyone, I live in a small city, I don't have to hunt for my food nor are there native or wild animals likely to attack me in the supermarket carpark I don't require a firearm for anything yet I own 54 firearms ranging from Blackpowder to an MG-42 and everything in between because I want to and am prepared to jump through whatever hoops the government sees fit to put in my way to ensure that I am safe to own them.

 

[MontyB]

We have collectors here, but they are few and far between. They are usually looking for rare firearms or firearms from a specific manufacture. I had a chat with one, he was a colonel in the army. He wasn't interested in firearms after WWII. He was interested in some of the German weapons from the war. He really wanted a Fallshirmsjäger rifle.

Really, how is he off for an Mp-44?
(oddly this is a serious question)


I also collect WW2 firearms.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Really, how is he off for an Mp-44?
(oddly this is a serious question)


I also collect WW2 firearms.

No, the FG-42 and from what I understand they can be hard to find. I have seen the Stg-44 at museums, but I have never seen a FG-42.

 

[Capt Frogman]

No, the FG-42 and from what I understand they can be hard to find. I have seen the Stg-44 at museums, but I have never seen a FG-42.

There is a D Day museum in France that has a FG-42.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

There is a D Day museum in France that has a FG-42.

It makes sense. The Germans had paratroopers in the "American" sector of Normandy. I haven't read anything about Normandy for a very long time. If I recall the battle correctly, the German 6th Para regiment was facing the Americans further inland from the "Utah" beach around the town Carentan. The FG-42 probably originates from this battle.

 

[Capt Frogman]

It makes sense. The Germans had paratroopers in the "American" sector of Normandy. I haven't read anything about Normandy for a very long time. If I recall the battle correctly, the German 6th Para regiment was facing the Americans further inland from the "Utah" beach around the town Carentan. The FG-42 probably originates from this battle.

Not sure, I just remember reading about it. My knowledge of the wars is embarrassingly lacking.

 

[MontyB]

There is a D Day museum in France that has a FG-42.

Sadly I only have a replica although they do come up for sale from time to time for anywhere between $16,000 and $300,000.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Sadly I only have a replica although they do come up for sale from time to time for anywhere between $16,000 and $300,000.

When something is rare the price goes up. I have been watching the antique roadshow when weapons of different kinds shows up. When they are average firearms and swords, they aren't so valuable. But when something rare shows up or if it can be traced back to a famous person the price skyrockets. I guess it doesn't matter what a person prefer to collect. Rare cars are also very expensive. I have been watching a few episodes of Jay Leno's Garage. His Duesenberg cars are quite expensive, I guess. He doesn't say what the price tags are on those cars.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

There are certain weapons that are not good for hunting and why does a hunter need a 20 or a 30 rounds magazine when he or she is hunting? To bring the discussion back to its original purpose.

What about discussing background checks, but what I think is lacking in all discussions about the firearms in this context is the storage of legally purchased firearms when the majority of all illegal firearms have been legal.

 

[MontyB]

There are certain weapons that are not good for hunting and why does a hunter need a 20 or a 30 rounds magazine when he or she is hunting? To bring the discussion back to its original purpose.

What does it matter what you hunt with?
A friend likes to hunt pig with a knife, I prefer a .338 L115A and for a long time use an L1A1.
The problem is not the gun as much as the clown that uses it, people need to focus less on what people want and more on which ones should and shouldn't have them.

What about discussing background checks, but what I think is lacking in all discussions about the firearms in this context is the storage of legally purchased firearms when the majority of all illegal firearms have been legal.

While living in the US I met 2 types of firearms owner, by far the most prevalent (95%) was the "normal" type, they own a couple of firearms and they are locked away safely when not in use. then there was a minority who seemed to think that you needed a pistol for all occasions they were stored loaded under the bed, on top of cupboards and in draws all over the house "so you could get to one when you needed it".


The funny thing is that in all of the years I have known these people none of them has ever "needed" them.


Things like background checks are good for purchasing from a dealer but will do nothing to resolve the second-hand market which is huge.

 

[George]

At least you haven't lost your sense of humour, gun safety that's a good one.
The NRA is about making money from convincing gullible and neurotic fools into thinking they need a firearm for protection..

your view is tainted by the views of the Press, I guess. The NRA, in fact, teaches gun safety & proper shooting to many, including Law enforcement, hunting safety courses, run competitive shooting matches they also defend our 2nd Ad. rights. My Dad was a career pilot, he said a gun is like a parachute, you'll probably never actually need one, but if you do you'll need it real bad & you won't be able to go get one.

So basically you're saying that journalists need to arm themselves in their workplace. Is that the sort of country you're happy to live in?

I get pissed and annoyed with things but I never ever think that I need to go to a workplace and shoot dead innocent people.

Once again, the places with the strongest gun laws in the US have the highest gun crime. A lot of it is limited to some large Cities where punks illegally carry & the Courts have banned "Search & frisk" as racial profiling.

I'm not calling for a complete disarmament of firearms from the law abiding populous.

You might not be, but that is the end game of the Anti-gun types.

Yes ones hears so much about these extremely rare but very highly publicized shooting by crazed kids who finagle an often legal gun to go nuts with and gun people down at schools etc. The real problem is that people can buy a friggen weapons on the street and commit crime. Like narcotics, guns have a way of making there way onto the street and black-market, this should be stopped. Also we as citizens of the USA we have the right to bear arms, but no civilian needs an automatic weapon. However don't even begin to question our ability to hunt pls.

There's Liberals pushing to ban hunting.

This triggers one of the problems I have, explain to me what the problem is with a law-abiding citizen owning an automatic?
QUOTE]


An automatic weapon is unnecessary for either hunting or sport shooting. As for self protection in NYS (where I live weapons cannot be carried around while loaded. One can only load them until you get to the range or hunting grounds. Exception being a special pistil permit which is highly regulated. So tell me why a "so called law abiding citizen would require an automatic weapon, what's the reasoning here unless we get onto some high hated BS, that well if you can own a single barrel shotgun you should be able to also own an AK-47"?

The 2nd Ad. isn't about hunting. Weather you like it or not the FF wanted the people to have military arms. "Sawed off' shotguns & rifles are on the restricted list because a Judge ruled, improperly, IMHO, that they were not militarily usefull. Currently rifle barrels must be at least 16", but the C-4 is 14.5", so that should be adjusted. Have read that a Judge back in '39, or so, was ready to throw out the registration of automatic weapons law, but the plaintiff failed to show up in Court.

If we take a closer look at the AR-15 and similar firearms. The majority of them are chambered for the 5.56, which is pretty useless caliber for hunting.

The 5.56 is right in between the .222 Rem & the .222 Rem. Mag., both are varmint hunting rounds that pre-existed the 5.56's invention.

Well, there's hunting, target shooting, collecting, and most important defence of one's self, family & country.

 

[MontyB]

The 2nd Ad. isn't about hunting. Weather you like it or not the FF wanted the people to have military arms. "Sawed off' shotguns & rifles are on the restricted list because a Judge ruled, improperly, IMHO, that they were not militarily usefull. Currently rifle barrels must be at least 16", but the C-4 is 14.5", so that should be adjusted. Have read that a Judge back in '39, or so, was ready to throw out the registration of automatic weapons law, but the plaintiff failed to show up in Court.

True but it is not about unrestricted firearms ownership either because it attached ownership to the maintenance of a regulated militia.
By modern standards that could be considered to be the National Guard, therefore it may be a solid argument to say that you have no right to a firearm if you are not part of a regulated militia or eligible to join one.

For the record my views of the NRA are tainted by meeting them mostly at gun shows, they come across as fanatics, it is further tainted by listening to their total lack of empathy when responding to the weekly mass shootings.
They are gun industry lobby group and in general care nothing for the people killed and injured by them, it is in my opinion an appalling group that should be outlawed.