School drill portrays killers as Christians

[senojekips]

My point being, that we should not be so thin skinned as to be upset by things that we willingly do to others.

In the past it was always my impression that it was the "other side" who behaved like a mob of raving loonies every time their religious beliefs were criticised, now certain sections of "our mob" appear to be as bad.

Not cool,... not cool at all.

 

[Marinerhodes]

My point being, that we should not be so thin skinned as to be upset by things that we willingly do to others.

In the past it was always my impression that it was the "other side" who behaved like a mob of raving loonies every time their religious beliefs were criticised, now certain sections of "our mob" appear to be as bad.

Not cool,... not cool at all.

Ok let me rephrase:

If the major religion at that school had been Muslim I have no doubt it would have screamed across the headlines as well. . . .

to read:

If the major religion at that school had been Muslim/Baptist/Catholic/Bhuddist/Presbyterian/Mormon/Apostolic (and so on and so forthe for any religion you want to name) I have no doubt it would have screamed across the headlines as well. . . .

The whole point and substance of my argument is this:

They wont know jacksquat about who is there except that someone is in the school shooting students and teachers.

They (LEO) won't care about who (terrorists) is doing what until the situation stabilizes enough to talk.

So why on earth would LEO and the fire department and other emergency services have to know anything about the religious or political affiliations? They don't.

You can almost bet your bottom dollar that any SWAT team won't care who they are either. They care about two things: Getting the bad guys and saving as many people as they can.

EDIT: Just wanted to point out that I do understand what you are saying about being thin skinned etc. I even agree with it to an extent. My observations and points will stand.

 

[bulldogg]

I agree with the Marine on all points and with Spike. I see common ground on this issue.

 

[Donkey]

No fear

 

[mmarsh]

I dont understand why people are having trouble imagining Christian extremists as terrorists. We have already had them:

1. The Branch Davidians at WACO held hostages.
2. The various assassinations of Abortion Doctors by Pro-life nut cases.
3. The Ku Klux Klan claimed it was the defender of White Christian Values
4. The Army of God.
5. Christian Identity.

We blame al-Qaeda or Hezbollah (which means 'Army of God' in Arabic, funny coincidence no?) but we have got groups at home that use or justify the use of terrorism as well.

They do not use violence has commonly as the Muslim extremists do, but I think we will see more attacks in the future, simply because they will begin to resent the fact that most Americans do not share their radical interpretation of the Bible. Thats just how the Muslim groups got started.

 

[Donkey]

Can you verify the first one to be an actual fact because I don't think it ever was.

Waco was nothing more then the US Gov't trashing constitutional rights.

during this drill they did not need to label anything...

 

[bulldogg]

Bullets dont discriminate. Why should we, lets label them Extremist Judeo Christian Islamic Facist Communist Freedom Fighting Terroristas... they can all have tattoos like mine and that way we'll piss off everyone.

 

[mmarsh]

Can you verify the first one to be an actual fact because I don't think it ever was.

Waco was nothing more then the US Gov't trashing constitutional rights.

during this drill they did not need to label anything...

I refer to anybody who holds children as hostages, who open fires on law enforcement executing a legal search+arrest warrant, and the fact that its highly likely that the Davidians shot their own hostages because they didn't want them to escape (like Jonestown) as being acts of a terrorist organization.

Which reminds me of another Fundimentalist Christian terrorist group, the followers of Jim Jones.

 

[bulldogg]

...the fact that its highly likely that the Davidians shot their own hostages because they didn't want them to escape (like Jonestown)...

SOURCE please.

 

[Marinerhodes]

...the fact that it is highly likely. . . wow....

I have made some glaring grammar errors but I can not remember contradicting myself in 7 words or so.

 

[Donkey]

I refer to anybody who holds children as hostages, who open fires on law enforcement executing a legal search+arrest warrant, and the fact that its highly likely that the Davidians shot their own hostages because they didn't want them to escape (like Jonestown) as being acts of a terrorist organization.

Which reminds me of another Fundimentalist Christian terrorist group, the followers of Jim Jones.

Please oh wise one show me all the sources...Including the ones after the fact that talk about all the illegal things our government did that day and the days prior and after...Oh wait you wont because it might make Billy Boy look bad...

 

[Gator]

I dont understand why people are having trouble imagining Christian extremists as terrorists. We have already had them:

1. The Branch Davidians at WACO held hostages.
2. The various assassinations of Abortion Doctors by Pro-life nut cases.
3. The Ku Klux Klan claimed it was the defender of White Christian Values
4. The Army of God.
5. Christian Identity.

We blame al-Qaeda or Hezbollah (which means 'Army of God' in Arabic, funny coincidence no?) but we have got groups at home that use or justify the use of terrorism as well.

They do not use violence has commonly as the Muslim extremists do, but I think we will see more attacks in the future, simply because they will begin to resent the fact that most Americans do not share their radical interpretation of the Bible. Thats just how the Muslim groups got started.

Agreed, and there was a time when Prots (and Catholics) were put to the Sword because of their extremist views..... oh, the good ol' days.

But lets face it, Christ himself was nailed to the cross because he was viewed as an extremist.... so it does seem to go back a ways.

 

[mmarsh]

Please oh wise one show me all the sources...Including the ones after the fact that talk about all the illegal things our government did that day and the days prior and after...Oh wait you wont because it might make Billy Boy look bad...

Donkey

Do your own research, one that avoids right wing anti-government conspiracy fruitcakes would be a good start. The data out there if you really want to look (try Google), I am not going to expend my energy stating the obvious to you. Yes, the ATF commanders made some errors on the ground. But ultimately the fault of what happened were the people in the compound and of Koresh in particular. Any attempt to show otherwise is pure history revisionism.

I don't have to defend Bill Clinton, because it was Janet Reno who gave the order to end the siege not Clinton. Presidents of the USA are a tiny bit busy to have to worry about small bands of ravings of religious lunatics. But the right attempt to blame everything on Clinton is well...pathetic.

Now looks at the people you are defending Donkey. We know them to be Guilty of:

Illegal Firearms procession.
Kidnapping (prevented followers from leaving)
Sexual molestation of Children (this has been confirmed by survivors)
Statutory Rape (ditto)
Murder of Federal Officers serving out a Federal warrant
Resisting Arrest
Likely murder of members who sought to escape the fire (not proven but likely)

To quote the Bible:

"Beware of false prophets for they will lead you astray". -precisely what Koresh was, a false prophet who thought he was Jesus reborn. I shed no tears for him.

I'll take bill Clinton any day over these loonies.

 

[bulldogg]

YO! MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMarsh... according to this...

General forum rules 6. Be prepared to provide sources for things you have posted, lack of this may be considered spamming.

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/faq.php?faq=forum_rules_features#faq_forum_rules when you claim something as fact on this forum and a member asks you for your source for said claim you are supposed to POST IT. So far two members have requested your sources and a third has further questioned its veracity. So.... SOURCE please for this...

I refer to anybody who holds children as hostages, who open fires on law enforcement executing a legal search+arrest warrant, and the fact that its highly likely that the Davidians shot their own hostages because they didn't want them to escape (like Jonestown) as being acts of a terrorist organization.

 

[MontyB]

YO! MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMarsh... according to this... http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/faq.php?faq=forum_rules_features#faq_forum_rules when you claim something as fact on this forum and a member asks you for your source for said claim you are supposed to POST IT. So far two members have requested your sources and a third has further questioned its veracity. So.... SOURCE please for this...

I would perhaps suggest you read rule 8 in the same list.



Anyway on to business.
As always it appears that people have little desire to achieve anything for themselves so here is a link to help out as I understand that writing ones own google search can be a challenge.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/americas/845483.stm

But in preliminary findings released on Friday, he said he had concluded with "100% certainty" that the FBI, and the US Government were not to blame.
"The tragedy at Waco rests with certain Branch Davidians and their leader David Koresh, who shot and killed four (government) agents, wounded 20 others, shot at FBI agents trying to insert tear gas into the complex, burned down the complex, and shot at least 20 of their own people, including five children," said the report from former Senator Danford.

 

[mmarsh]

Since Bulldogg obviously doesn't read the rules himself, I'll read it to him: (with thanks to MontyB)

RULE 8. Do not try to be a moderator. (if you're not one of course...).

Its hilarious how some people here love to recite the rules to others, but their egos don't think they need to apply these same rules to themselves.

On top of this, Bulldogg is totally wrong.

The rule says actually it says 'Be prepared to provide sources for things you have posted, lack of this may be considered spamming'. Its doesn't say its required. It implies that unproven statements might be considered SPAM BY THE MODERATORS, NOT US MEMBERS. In other words, the only people that actually have the right to demand me my sources are the moderators or Redleg. And I'll be happy to comply should they ask.

But back to the subject.

The reason I didn't provide a source wasn't because I couldn't. As we all see, MontyB did so very easily, I could pull out a dozen other sources as well. But because it was pointless exercise. I am sick and tired of arguing reason against these anti-government uber-paranoid-schizophrenics that continually attempt to rewrite history on this very subject. They are revisionists or at worse, pro-Koresh apologists. I wont deal with Nazi-apologists or communist apologists either.

If Donkey really wants to know what happen at WACO he could easily used Google, but he was clear he doesn't really want to. He just wants an audience for preaching his revisionist anti-establishment/anti-Clinton platform. I been through that a million times before. Its a waste of my time and it bores me.

There is a major difference between arguing political theory and arguing a conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theorists are of no longer any interest to me. The situation is no different than those left-wing fruitcakes that think George Bush orchestrated 9-11. I wont get involved in that nonsense either, and everyone here knows how much I just despise George Bush.

 

[Redleg]

Thread locked, under review.