President Obama blocks release of prison abuse photos

[03USMC]

I am tired of seeing a minuscule number of people (idiots one and all as far as I am concerned), demand that ALL Americans apologize for things that were carried out by GW Bush and his administration. The ONLY apology to the rest of the world that was legitimate, was carried out by the voters when the GOP and GW Bush sycophants were booted out of office.

Agreed 110% with the Chief (very odd me being a Jarhead) . Seems taht there a small percentage off persons who think that this is a world popularity contest.

I am begiining however to take issue with the POTUS constantly aplogizing on behalf of the American people, for events me, you or anybody else could control......those people are gone....so can it already Barry.

 

[senojekips]

Agreed 110% with the Chief (very odd me being a Jarhead) . Seems taht there a small percentage off persons who think that this is a world popularity contest.

There are a significant percentage of US citizens who have never been able to understand why the US is detested by so many people around the world, your answer is a typical example of the arrogance that is responsible for it. It may not be a popularity contest, but you (the US) are expected to play by the same rules you expect of everyone else.

I can't see that that is a great ask of any country or individual.

 

[03USMC]

There are a significant percentage of US citizens who have never been able to understand why the US is detested by so many people around the world, your answer is a typical example of the arrogance that is responsible for it. It may not be a popularity contest, but you (the US) are expected to play by the same rules you expect of everyone else.

I can't see that that is a great ask of any country or individual.

Ya know I don't freakin recall saying that the the US shouldn't play by the rules.

Arrogant? Yer damned right I'm arrogant.

But I digress. What I said was that I agreed with the Chief's sentiments in that the current POTUS holds no responsibilty for occurences that did not happen during his term. That regardless of his popularity with the rest of the world . he ultimitely answers to the voters in the US not in Europe, Asia, the Middleast, South America or even to the subjagated minions of the Evil Penguin King on the South Pole.

And in reality I could give a rats ass if the US is liked, loved, admired or not by the rest of the world, as long as it's safe, free and viable to it's people.

 

[Chukpike]

There are a significant percentage of US citizens who have never been able to understand why the US is detested by so many people around the world, your answer is a typical example of the arrogance that is responsible for it. It may not be a popularity contest, but you (the US) are expected to play by the same rules you expect of everyone else.

I can't see that that is a great ask of any country or individual.

"but you (the US) are expected to play by the same rules you expect of everyone else."
This is obviously incorrect, America is held to a higher standard than other countries. We are expected to play by a stricter set of rules than any other country follows.

I would have to be counted as one American citizen who doesn't understand. Having visited a lot of different countries the people around the world hid their detesting well. With the noticeable exception of the citizens of Paris. But, I was informed by other Frenchmen that the Parisians treat everyone like that, even the French who do not live in Paris.:lol:

Countries I have visited: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Philippines, Hong Kong, Japan, France, Germany, Italy, England, Canada, Mexico and more...

Probably earn me a rebuke, but Italy has the best food.

I think some in other countries, want Americans to live up to the Ideals set down in Constitution and Bill of Rights. They don't realize we can't even do that at home, all we can do is try. We are not allowed to make mistakes.

We do have an attitude of "if that's not good enough tough, why don't you do better."

Showing a few pictures on the 6:00 o'clock news isn't going to improve our image to anyone.

 

[senojekips]

Grumpy, grumpy,.... "Playing by the rules" was the root cause of everything that led to this thread.

Ignorance can be cured, but arrogance is a terminal condition. Just, "Go for it" see where it gets you, it certainly hasn't worked very well so far.

I just hope that one day enough people in the US will wake up that things like 9/11, and whatever happens next, were the result of such attitudes and they will continue to happen for as long as it persists.

 

[03USMC]

Grumpy, grumpy,.... "Playing by the rules" was the root cause of everything that led to this thread.

And you know what? Those decisions were made way above my paygrade so excuse me if I don't aplogize for them. Do I agree, not with all of them.....but I'm not apologizing for them ethier. The ones who did it can.

Ignorance can be cured, but arrogance is a terminal condition. Just, "Go for it" see where it gets you, it certainly hasn't worked very well so far.

Yeah I'm arrogant because I'm proud to be a citizen of the US.I'm Proud to serve my country. I'm Proud of my country, although not of all her actions. If in this day and age that makes me arrogant then so be it, anyone who doesn't like it can stuff it up. This country gave my family more opportunties than they would have had in their countries of orgin, I owe my country my allegience.

I just hope that one day enough people in the US will wake up that things like 9/11, and whatever happens next, were the result of such attitudes and they will continue to happen for as long as it persists.

So that's what 9/11 was about! So I guess we should just smooch arse on every disenfranchised, diseffected malcontent group in the world and worry first about everyone else and then about us. BS.

Embedded........

 

[senojekips]

"but you (the US) are expected to play by the same rules you expect of everyone else."
This is obviously incorrect, America is held to a higher standard than other countries. We are expected to play by a stricter set of rules than any other country follows.

I would dispute that, I would say that you are only expected to play by the rules that you expect of others.

I would have to be counted as one American citizen who doesn't understand. Having visited a lot of different countries the people around the world hid their detesting well. With the noticeable exception of the citizens of Paris. But, I was informed by other Frenchmen that the Parisians treat everyone like that, even the French who do not live in Paris.:lol:

Countries I have visited: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Philippines, Hong Kong, Japan, France, Germany, Italy, England, Canada, Mexico and more...

Well,.. I spent most of my life sailing around the world, and all I can say to that is that perhaps you ran into people who were too well mannered to say what they thought. I think I've seen enough "Yankee Go Home" placards to last me a dozen lifetimes. Personally. I sympathise with the US, and realise some of the resentment is only thinly disguised envy, but things such as we are discussing in this thread give credence to their argument and that is my point. It does neither of us any favors for me not to be honest. The US, as the most powerful country on earth has a hard row to hoe, but that is the downside of being "number one".

Probably earn me a rebuke, but Italy has the best food.

They make terrible Pizzas :lol: (by our standards) But I like the Italian people and I would have liked to learn the language, (properly).

I think some in other countries, want Americans to live up to the Ideals set down in Constitution and Bill of Rights. They don't realize we can't even do that at home, all we can do is try. We are not allowed to make mistakes.

That's what is expected of any civilised country, that they try, nobody's asking for any more.

We do have an attitude of "if that's not good enough tough, why don't you do better."

Well that is fine but those countries haven't been caught out doing the things that we are accusing our opponents of, so they are doing better.

Showing a few pictures on the 6:00 o'clock news isn't going to improve our image to anyone.

It certainly won't make the US look any worse, as people already have their suspicions, so it is better that they know the truth rather than let their imaginations do the work, with what has been uncovered we may as well make a clean breast of it and at least show that we are being open and honest about it.

We all make mistakes, what we will be remembered for, is how we handled it when the mistake was discovered.

 

[senojekips]

Embedded........

Nobody is asking you personally to apologise, but someone "way above your pay grade" has obviously decided that it was the right and proper thing to do.

I may be biased, but I'd say that's why he is the President.....

"In an arrogant man, pride is just another name for vanity"

 

[MontyB]

Agreed 110% with the Chief (very odd me being a Jarhead) . Seems taht there a small percentage off persons who think that this is a world popularity contest.

I am begiining however to take issue with the POTUS constantly aplogizing on behalf of the American people, for events me, you or anybody else could control......those people are gone....so can it already Barry.

I may be misreading this but is it your contention that because Bush and Co are no longer in office nothing they did should be accounted for?

Oddly enough Obama is head of state and as such he is where the buck stops so if any one has to apologise (assuming there is something to apologise for) it is his task to do it.

Outside that I personally think not releasing the photos once they were known to exist is going to lead people to believe they are worse than they may be which in turn is somewhat counter productive especially if they are just a confirmation of knowledge we already have.

Of course if there is a "security" reason why they can't be released then it would make sense not to release them.

 

[Chukpike]

I may be misreading this but is it your contention that because Bush and Co are no longer in office nothing they did should be accounted for?

Sounds like you are familiar with the way politics works in most countries.

Oddly enough Obama is head of state and as such he is where the buck stops so if any one has to apologies (assuming there is something to apologise for) it is his task to do it.

Since actions speak louder than words, wouldn't correcting the problem be more important?

Outside that I personally think not releasing the photos once they were known to exist is going to lead people to believe they are worse than they may be which in turn is somewhat counter productive especially if they are just a confirmation of knowledge we already have.

Remember all the talk about showing pictures of the coffins coming back from Iraq.

Saw photos of coffins today in the LA Times. They were the supposedly the coffins of the soldiers that were killed by one of their own. What purpose did these photos serve?

Sensationalize a tragedy and sell newspapers?

Did not add one thing to the story.

Of course if there is a "security" reason why they can't be released then it would make sense not to release them.

No one actually wants to read the memos, they are to long and dull. They do explain that each individual water pour is considered a waterboarding. Which explains why you hear figures of people being waterboarded 80 times.

The length of the memos is why you don't see them in newspsapers. Better a few pictures (which don't explain anything). The memos would give more in depth explanation of what the decisions were based on and just how bad the decisions were. But they would not sell papers or get you to watch the reports on television or Youtube.

 

[A Can of Man]

That's the danger behind it... it's a tough job being President. One wonders why anyone would even want to be one.

 

[Rob Henderson]

Agreed! Not only are you in the public eye all the time, but instead of just watching you, we're watching for you to screw up. It's worse than being a celebrity! My hat is off to anyone with enough drive to serve the people to that extent...

 

[A Can of Man]

I feel for this man at this moment. That is one VERY tough choice to make.
If you don't release the photos, the world will cry that not enough is being done.
If you release the photos, they'll be on the front page of every newspaper and news website, no doubt taken out of context to the fullest ability of the press.
And the thing is, the guy wasn't even in charge when it happened.

 

[Rob Henderson]

That's what I hate the most... I agree with Spike that the POTUS does have a responsibility of sorts to make sure the American image is a good one, but I also agree that it shouldn't be THIS President doing the apologizing.

As for the photos... Quite honestly, I could care less about them. I could live a perfectly happy life without seeing those images. I know the US engages in torture, and the CIA memos simply affirmed that (to some degree). With the release of those memos, we said that we are willing to show you that we are wrong, and are going to change. That's all we can do... We can't go back and NOT torture those people... The most anyone in the world can expect is that with a new head of the nation, things will go differently.

 

[senojekips]

That's what I hate the most... I agree with Spike that the POTUS does have a responsibility of sorts to make sure the American image is a good one, but I also agree that it shouldn't be THIS President doing the apologizing.

the world does not expect an "apology" from President Obama, but it would do a great deal of good for the image of the US if he allowed a full disclosure of previous errors, and suitable punishment of those involved.

So the world can see that the punishments are appropriate, they must be made aware of exactly what happened, otherwise there will always be calls of a "whitewash", and rightfully so.

The world remembers the part played by the US in War Crimes trials in previous wars, and they have long memories, seeing it as less than ideal, that a country that expects others to abide by the International Conventions to not do the same.

Pretty simple really.

I know there are people who don't give a flying f*ck for what the rest of the world thinks about this, but it is those attitudes that have dragged us into this mess. Now we must decide whether we are going to be "the good Guys' or the Bad guys". I don't care what anyone else feels about this, but personally I feel that it helps our cause a lot if we firmly hold the moral high ground.

It's not much sense in conducting a war against evil, if we are as bad as those we accuse, and before someone goes off about 9/11, just think how many innocent civilians we have killed in our "war against evil" The old "they started it" is only a schoolyard excuse in cases such as this because it all goes back a long way before 9/11.

 

[A Can of Man]

We must not make our enemies right.

 

[Rob Henderson]

the world does not expect an "apology" from President Obama, but it would do a great deal of good for the image of the US if he allowed a full disclosure of previous errors, and suitable punishment of those involved.

So the world can see that the punishments are appropriate, they must be made aware of exactly what happened, otherwise there will always be calls of a "whitewash", and rightfully so.

The world remembers the part played by the US in War Crimes trials in previous wars, and they have long memories, seeing it as less than ideal, that a country that expects others to abide by the International Conventions to not do the same.

Pretty simple really.

I know there are people who don't give a flying f*ck for what the rest of the world thinks about this, but it is those attitudes that have dragged us into this mess. Now we must decide whether we are going to be "the good Guys' or the Bad guys". I don't care what anyone else feels about this, but personally I feel that it helps our cause a lot if we firmly hold the moral high ground.

It's not much sense in conducting a war against evil, if we are as bad as those we accuse, and before someone goes off about 9/11, just think how many innocent civilians we have killed in our "war against evil" The old "they started it" is only a schoolyard excuse in cases such as this because it all goes back a long way before 9/11.

Cheers Spike... I couldn't have said it better myself. I don't mean an apology per say... Damage control is a better phrase.

 

[A Can of Man]

It is always easy to try and arrest people involved in wars that don't really involve you personally.
But before you do you have to ask yourself: what would you do if it were your own people? Then you judge. Unfortunately this was never seriously considered.

 

[Rob Henderson]

It was a rash decision by a rash man. We have rectified the problem, now let's focus on the solution!

 

[A Can of Man]

Well it's not like we're policy makers... but it'll be interesting to see where this goes.
I think there are simply too many factors involved to be able to really make a prediction at this point.