Origins of Myth: M-16 VS AK

So, shouldn't you change your avatar to something more appropriate like a light blue desk? Or a stack of paper with the USAF logo on top?



:)
 
The M16A1 was infact a nice lightweight rifle... Been thinking of building a civvie version of it.

Why the hell is this thread alive?

It's like 1911 VS GLOCK
 
AussieNick said:
The AK was designed with heavy volumes of automatic fire in mind. It was designed during the height of Soviet atrition warfare. It was intendend for large numbers of poorly trained conscripts to fire from the hip as they ran across the snowy steppe towards the Nazis as they yelled "Urah!".
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In fact, AK-47 was designed over the influence of Nazi German SturmGewehr-44. With full-auto mode as primary, because of experience of war (WW2). The density of fire was (and still is!) factor which helps infantry to suppress enemy better than near-sniping, single-shot firing with higher accuracy.

Question to men, who have been in combat with M-16 family weapon in their hands - does full auto or semi mode dominated in firefights You experienced?
 
Actually the M-16 family is more accurate in automatic fire than the AK-47 is. There's far less recoil. So what if the AK-47's order of the safety select is Safe-Auto-Semi and the M-16's is Safe-Semi-Auto?

bulldogg said:
So, shouldn't you change your avatar to something more appropriate like a light blue desk? Or a stack of paper with the USAF logo on top?



:)
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hahahahaha

USAF1-1.jpg


USAF2.jpg


No need to thank me.
 
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Again kind of repeating myself here but the AK-47 is excellent for what it's good for.
You got a group of untrained or under trained angry guys who don't know or don't have the means (actually, ways of improvising are infinite) to clean and properly maintain their weapons who don't know how to hit anything further out than a 100 meters, then the AK-47 is exactly what you want.
 
The reliability of the AK gives the advantage to poorly trained soldiers over those armed with an M-16 who are also poorly trained.

In conditions poor enough to seriously affect M-16 accuracy, chances are you can't even see up to 300m. And on top of that the AK can't hit crap at 300m on a good day anyway.

If you maintain your rifle well, it won't fail you and a trained soldier will know how to take care of his weapon.
Unless I knew I'd be operating for several years in the jungle with very little resupply, I would pick the M-16 class of weapons over the AK. Although I've never fired a real AK47, I have tried the automatic BB gun versions (Exact replicas). Though this is no real measure of the real weapon, it does give you the feel for the sighting system. In a game where I could hit 50/50 with an M-4 or MP-5, I would miss considerably more with an AK model because of the sighting.
Like I said, when I've done the hard part of sneaking to a good position, I need to know my bullets will hit where I'm aiming it.
 
As I found information on accuracy comparison between AK-74 and M-16 (without specifying of model, is just M-16, or A1, A2 or A3), the test results were following: firing on distance 300m from prone position, the horizontal and vertical dispersion were (I understood, that firing was in auto mode):
- 50 and 77 cm for AK-74;
- 15 and 22 cm for M-16.
So, the accuracy of M-16 is 3,5 times higher.

The reliability tests, done for AK of `100` series (i.e., AK of construction and production of end of 90-ies), showed that probability of malfunction is less than 0,2%. Average lifetime of weapon - 10...15 thousand rounds (i.e. full warn-out of barrel, while automatics remain functional). Sadly I do not have any values that characterizes M-16 in this way.

For M-16, elevated sensitivity to quality of powder was mentioned. Powder of lower quality leads to rise of temp of fire to 1000 rounds per minute (auto mode, of course) or even higher, and can cause a malfunction because of non-feed of next round in chamber. Also diopter sight of M-16 was criticized for being not suitable for aiming in twilight or on moving targets. Also, M-16 is longer than AK - so, inside of buildings or trenches soldier with AK will be a little bit faster - he needs a less of space to turn or move in other way. And I'm not sure, is M-4A1 carbine still more accurate than AK.

Another advantages of M-16 was mentioned more comfort of changing mag (it is much easier, from my own experience - M-16 can be reloadable without removing your right hand from trigger grip, while AK is designed to be reloaded with your right hand. You can earn couple of seconds, if you are reloading M-16, not AK. As can be see in Youtube clip above, reloading AK with left hand is quite difficult and not very easy).
 
No one's challenging the AK's reliability. It's beyond the reliability of other rifles but this does come at a price: lowered accuracy. Has to do with the internal parts. The more loose fitting insides of the AK is more forgiving to dirt and clogs but also makes the weapon less accurate. Actually 5.56 would know this better. He's our resident firearms expert.
My knowledge on the M-16 is somewhat limited because I used the K-2 rifle which has the magazine feed and chambering of an M-16 but has a gas operation more closely related to the AK series.
The K-2 is slightly less accurate than the M-16 and from what I heard it is actually due to the AK-style gas operating system.
 
bulldogg said:
Too bad this discussion, see thread title, is about the M-16 and the AK 47.
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Are most of people familiar with differences between members of AK family? :D Even old AK-47 had 3 different types... :) And AK-74 even more:
http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/ak74.html
In photoz of Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan 1979-1989 you can find at least 3 types of AK-74 (AKS-74, actually)...

And as I know, classic question `M-16 vs. AK` are not mandatory related to Vietnam era M-16/M-16A1 and AK-47 comparison, since people in such discussions use arguments for both M-16A2 (which is more reliable than Vietnam era M-16A1) and AKM/AK-74, which weren't used in Vietnam...
 
The versions of AK, other than the AKS versions are mostly the same weapon with superficial changes.
But I think what we're talking about here is the modern weapons, not what was used in Vietnam.
The current AR-15/M-16 family vs the current AK family.
And like I said, under most conditions I would rather have a weapon I can trust to hit the target with than something that sacrifices accuracy because I know I can clean my weapon enough to keep it ticking.
As for your claim that the AK is better suited for shooting things that move... that's quite a claim for a weapon that has trouble hitting something staying still.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
The versions of AK, other than the AKS versions are mostly the same weapon with superficial changes.
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Caliber changed. AK-47 and AKM used 7,62x39mm, while AK-74 familiy - 5,45x39mm. Those are two VERY different types of ammunition. In Russian forums there is mirror of our discussion, but in other way: which type of AK better, 7,62 or 5,45mm? Again, both sides have their arguments: 5,45mm gives considerable increase of accuracy (~1,6 times better over 7,62mm chambered AKM) and allow soldier to carry more ammo with, while 7,62mm round is more stable and has more of penetration power (it's quite important in urban and forest environments).
But I think what we're talking about here is the modern weapons, not what was used in Vietnam.
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As we can read above, Mr. bulldog disagree with this statement :)
Besides, despite of AK-74 being standard infantry weapon of Russian Army, some unit or soldiers continue to use `old` 7,62mm chambered AK's (usually AKM/AKMS, I have not see any evidence that AK-47 is still in use in Russian Army).
The current AR-15/M-16 family vs the current AK family.
And like I said, under most conditions I would rather have a weapon I can trust to hit the target with than something that sacrifices accuracy because I know I can clean my weapon enough to keep it ticking.
As for your claim that the AK is better suited for shooting things that move... that's quite a claim for a weapon that has trouble hitting something staying still.
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At first, best barrels of AK-74 gives out an accuracy of 1 MOA in 300m distance; reference - Sniper Notepad: http://www.hpbt.org/articles/cezar.htm
At second, using semi mode AK-74 is accurate enough to hit all the relevant targets within 300m. For distances above 300m - fire mostly for suppression and, if accurate hit is needed, it is what SVD is for.
At third, most of fire from small arms is fired not for sniper-style direct hit, but for suppression. And there is no need for accuracy `to hit a bull's eye from half mile` for standard rifleman weapon.
At fourth, and what if situation would be such, where scheduled cleaning of weapon is not impossible? For example, your unit is surrounded in swamp or in desert during sand storm (and there is no to place parts of dissembled rifle where they wouldn't get moisture or sand particles inside).

It doesn't mean, that M-16 family is not suitable for anything. M-16 is good weapon for professional, well equipped and relatively comfortable dislocated (i.e., soldiers have opportunity to clean their rifles at least inside armored vehicles, especially in aggressive (sandstorms, often rainfalls) environment) units.

So, both of these assault rifles, M-16 as well as AK are either good for riflemen units. For special forces, especially in urban environment, I think M-16 family will be much better, while AK family will be best weapon for mass conscripted army.
 
Supostat said:
For special forces, especially in urban environment, I think M-16 family will be much better, while AK family will be best weapon for mass conscripted army.
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Isn't this what I said earlier? The M-16 is a better weapon in the hands of a professional. The AK series are more suitable for less trained and less supported units.

Also I treat the AK-47 and AK-74 as different weapons. When I'm talking about an AK-47, I'm talking about an AK-47, not an AK-74. I know the caliber differences.
 
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