Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)

Tuan said:
Canada's new PM is right: Bombs won't beat ISIS
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/23/opinions/canada-isis-trudeau/index.html
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I disagree bombing will take out ISIS's heavy weapons AFV and such, thus reducing there ability to wage offensive warfare. It may not win the war but they will only be able to fight with a smaller stick. Also weapons like the AC-130 and Apache can take out a lot of ISIS fighters when they are grouped together. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of those.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz9kATNANzU"]AC130 Strike on ISIS Raqqa, Syria 9/23/14 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3gECsHEe0Q"]Usa Army Apache vs Isis EI.Irak - YouTube[/ame]
 
No :Trudeau is a deserter,he has even not the excuse that the ship is sinking:he is a member of the Muslim Lobby and refuses to fight aganst Muslims .He will never fight,even if Canada is attacked .

And history learns us what will happen to such people .The country of a PM who openly is saying that he will not fight,will be the next on the list of the terrorists .
 
^^ Canadians voted for Trudeau to bring back the old Canada that Harper had ruined. As you know, traditionally Canada is known for promoting peace and compassion throughout the world. That's exactly what Trudeau has said he's going to do. I seriously doubt that there will be a single terrorist attack on Canadian soil during his time!
 
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JOC said:
I disagree bombing will take out ISIS's heavy weapons AFV and such, thus reducing there ability to wage offensive warfare. It may not win the war but they will only be able to fight with a smaller stick. Also weapons like the AC-130 and Apache can take out a lot of ISIS fighters when they are grouped together. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of those.

AC130 Strike on ISIS Raqqa, Syria 9/23/14 - YouTube

Usa Army Apache vs Isis EI.Irak - YouTube
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The argument is somewhat like the capital punishment argument, the death penalty does not stop capital crime but it does stop reoffending.

ISIS only understand violence it is what they are about which is why negotiating with them is pointless because what they want is everything and they want to get it through conquest so you are right bombs will solve the problem preferably followed by a lot of bullets however this has to be backed by programs to reduce the radicalisation of those susceptible to their message.

However according to the video comments both of those are not ISIS targets but earlier Taliban strikes from Afghanistan.
 
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As I said here many times, you can eliminate some extremists, some leaders and some groups by military might which is the application of hard power, as for short term goals, but you will never destroy an intergenerational idea, such as Qutbism/Salafism/Wahhabism or Jihadism because an ideology has to be countered with another ideology, not by bombs and guns as it would exacerbate the situation. To counter an ideology by another you need to apply soft power!
 
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You said this many times,but you are wrong :nazism(= an ideology) was not crushed by an other ideology,but by brute force .

Why would it not be possible to crush ISIS by using a nuclear weapon ?
 
lljadw said:
You said this many times,but you are wrong :nazism(= an ideology) was not crushed by an other ideology,but by brute force .

Why would it not be possible to crush ISIS by using a nuclear weapon ?
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Because it would be impossible to separate the rebel alliance and other innocents from the foes i.e.: ISIS.

Currently the US pinpoints the ISIS targets, although the attacks are to few to tip the balance if the balance can be tipped from the air.
 
lljadw said:
You said this many times,but you are wrong :nazism(= an ideology) was not crushed by an other ideology,but by brute force .

Why would it not be possible to crush ISIS by using a nuclear weapon ?
Click to expand...

So the way to make you change your mind about things is to use force.

What do you think the consequences would be if the US or anybody else used a nuke in Syria/Iraq or anywhere else in the world?
 
lljadw said:
You said this many times,but you are wrong :nazism(= an ideology) was not crushed by an other ideology,but by brute force .

Why would it not be possible to crush ISIS by using a nuclear weapon ?
Click to expand...

The Nazi's were out to conquer all of Europe and possibly other areas as well. They were a world treat and it took the combined forces of the USSR, USA and British Common Wealth to defeat them. They were one of the biggest treats civilized man has ever faced.

How can you compare a few 10 of thousands of radicals that are loosely knit and are only achieving victories because they are fighting weak foes to Nazi Germany who had an extremely powerful military.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
So the way to make you change your mind about things is to use force.

What do you think the consequences would be if the US or anybody else used a nuke in Syria/Iraq or anywhere else in the world?
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What were the consequences when the US used 2 nukes against Japan ?

The only difference between a nuke and a conventional weapon is that the nuke CAN kill more people .there are small nukes that can kill only a few thousand people .
 
lljadw said:
You said this many times,but you are wrong :nazism(= an ideology) was not crushed by an other ideology,but by brute force .

Why would it not be possible to crush ISIS by using a nuclear weapon ?
Click to expand...

Actually it was not the Nazi ideology that was defeated but the Nazi army/regime that was defeated.

Please see the quote below:

"Following Nazi Germany's defeat in World War II and the end of the Holocaust, overt expressions of support for Nazi ideas were prohibited in Germany and other European countries. Nonetheless, movements that self-identify as National Socialist or are described as adhering to National Socialism continue to exist on the fringes of politics in many western societies. Usually espousing a white supremacist ideology, many deliberately adopt the symbols of Nazi Germany."

Please refer this:
Ed. Blamires, Cyprian and Jackson, Paul. World Fascism: A Historical Encyclopedia, Volume 1. ABC-CLIO. pp. 459–461.B
 
JOC said:
The Nazi's were out to conquer all of Europe and possibly other areas as well. They were a world treat and it took the combined forces of the USSR, USA and British Common Wealth to defeat them. They were one of the biggest treats civilized man has ever faced.

How can you compare a few 10 of thousands of radicals that are loosely knit and are only achieving victories because they are fighting weak foes to Nazi Germany who had an extremely powerful military.
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The point is that it was not possible to defeat Germany without the use of weapons : propaganda would not be sufficient .

It is the same for ISIS :ISIS will not stop its atrocities because of Western propaganda,it will only stop its atrocities when it has been crushed .


Other point : why are the foes of ISIS weak ? Is it not because the US are hindering the enemies of ISIS by attacking them ?


Why is ISIS still not crushed ? Is it not because the West is unwilling to use weapons that would crush ISIS ? Things as nukes,or REAL conventional bombardments ,as in WWII ?

If it had been possible to defeat ISIS by propaganda, this would have been done.As it has not been done,the conclusion is that it was not possible .

To win,ISIS is using terror; to defeat ISIS,one must use more terror .

Our "terror" is legal, the terror of ISIS is not legal .
 
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Tuan said:
Actually it was not the Nazi ideology that was defeated but the Nazi army/regime that was defeated.

Please see the quote below:

"Following Nazi Germany's defeat in World War II and the end of the Holocaust, overt expressions of support for Nazi ideas were prohibited in Germany and other European countries. Nonetheless, movements that self-identify as National Socialist or are described as adhering to National Socialism continue to exist on the fringes of politics in many western societies. Usually espousing a white supremacist ideology, many deliberately adopt the symbols of Nazi Germany."

Please refer this:
Ed. Blamires, Cyprian and Jackson, Paul. World Fascism: A Historical Encyclopedia, Volume 1. ABC-CLIO. pp. 459–461.B
Click to expand...

And the defeat of the German army meant the end of nazism in Germany .

If you want to defeat post-war existing nazi movements:use force : put them in prison,or hang them .

Such people (Stormfront) will never change their positions .

May I also observe that the Historical Encyclopedia is making the classic mistake of making no difference between fascism and nazism .

Fascists were the followers of Mussolini :they have disappeared .

Nazis were the followers of Hitler : they still exist (on a small scale) .
 
lljadw said:
The point is that it was not possible to defeat Germany without the use of weapons : propaganda would not be sufficient .

It is the same for ISIS :ISIS will not stop its atrocities because of Western propaganda,it will only stop its atrocities when it has been crushed .


Other point : why are the foes of ISIS weak ? Is it not because the US are hindering the enemies of ISIS by attacking them ?


Why is ISIS still not crushed ? Is it not because the West is unwilling to use weapons that would crush ISIS ? Things as nukes,or REAL conventional bombardments ,as in WWII ?

If it had been possible to defeat ISIS by propaganda, this would have been done.As it has not been done,the conclusion is that it was not possible .

To win,ISIS is using terror; to defeat ISIS,one must use more terror .

Our "terror" is legal, the terror of ISIS is not legal .
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Yes Germany was defeated by an all out effort of the combined forces of the USA. the USSR and the British Common Wealth. Major collateral damage to Germany and occupied Europe resulted from such a total war footing.

What you are failing to realize is you cannot compare the magnitude of the world treat presented by Nazi Germany with the threats presented by these terrorist groups.

Should we support resistance groups like the Syrian rebels and the Kurds yes by all means. Is it up to us to completely destroy ISIS and everyone else nearby them in the process no. Also remember there are many things that could evolve out of heavy US involvement a larger more protracted war as they rally against the foreign invaders.

This ME thing is very complex and involves religious and tribal rivalries that go back for ages. WW2 was well defined.
 
lljadw said:
And the defeat of the German army meant the end of nazism in Germany .

If you want to defeat post-war existing nazi movements:use force : put them in prison,or hang them .

Such people (Stormfront) will never change their positions .

May I also observe that the Historical Encyclopedia is making the classic mistake of making no difference between fascism and nazism .

Fascists were the followers of Mussolini :they have disappeared .

Nazis were the followers of Hitler : they still exist (on a small scale) .
Click to expand...

So you agree that Nazi ideology is NOT defeated, as it still exists in the form of "Neo-Nazism" which borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including ultranationalism, racism, ableism, xenophobia, homophobia, antiziganism, antisemitism, and initiating the Fourth Reich. Holocaust denial is a common feature, as is incorporation of Nazi symbols and admiration of Adolf Hitler.
 
lljadw said:
What were the consequences when the US used 2 nukes against Japan ?

The only difference between a nuke and a conventional weapon is that the nuke CAN kill more people .there are small nukes that can kill only a few thousand people .
Click to expand...

There were and still are consequences for the use of nuclear weapons. Initially, they were used to try to get the Japanese to surrender, or at least realize the show is over. Another reason was to show the Russians what the US can do.
The long term effects weren't known in 1945, but we know it now.

So you think it will not be any political implications for the country using a nuke now?
 
lljadw said:
And the defeat of the German army meant the end of nazism in Germany .

If you want to defeat post-war existing nazi movements:use force : put them in prison,or hang them .

Such people (Stormfront) will never change their positions .

May I also observe that the Historical Encyclopedia is making the classic mistake of making no difference between fascism and nazism .

Fascists were the followers of Mussolini :they have disappeared .

Nazis were the followers of Hitler : they still exist (on a small scale) .
Click to expand...

The fascists haven't disappeared, they are still around. They pop up here and there.

Do you know the difference between Fascism and Nazism?
 
Tuan said:
So you agree that Nazi ideology is NOT defeated, as it still exists in the form of "Neo-Nazism" which borrows elements from Nazi doctrine, including ultranationalism, racism, ableism, xenophobia, homophobia, antiziganism, antisemitism, and initiating the Fourth Reich. Holocaust denial is a common feature, as is incorporation of Nazi symbols and admiration of Adolf Hitler.
Click to expand...

The present homophobia (by Muslims) and antisemitism and Holocaust denial (by the Liberals and Muslims) has nothing to do with Nazism .

Racism and xenophobia have nothing to do with nazism : they existed before nazism and they always will exist .
 
If the use of a nuclear weapon against Japan was morally and militarily justified (it saved Allied lives,and,less important, Japanese lives) why would the use of a nuclear weapon against ISIS not be justified morally and militarily ? It would also save Allied lives,and,less important, Muslim lives .
 
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