Most decisive battle in WW2?

[USSWISCONSIN]

I chose Midway, because I am a naval enthusiast. Battles are important for different reasons, turning points, halting an advance, breaking an enemies forces down, and so forth. Of the listed battles, Midway was a very important turning point in the Pacific and probably the single most important naval battle of WWII.

 

[LeEnfield]

One battle that is never discussed is the battle of the Atlantic, now what would have happened if that one was lost.

 

[lljadw]

Afaics,IMHO,from my POV,and such things,the Germans were never nearing the point that they could win the Battle of the Atlantic .
Some figures about the U boats:
1 january 1942:249
58 in the Baltic for basic training
100 for advanced training
of the 91 remaining,only 55 were available in the Atlantic ,of which 22 operational .
In 1941,the submarines sank 2.1 million ton of shipping
In march 1943,there were 400 UBoats
52 for basic training
119 for advanced traning
7 experimental boats
222 front-line boats
182 stationed in the atlantic and 40 elsewhere
Of those in the Atlantic
68 at base
44 en route
70 on combat patrol,of which 45 patrolling the convoy routes in the North Atlantic

 

[lljadw]

from Naval History the losses of the British,allied and neutral merchant navies in the Atlantic ocean ,from all causes.
1939:O.3 million ton 35 boats 5 UBoats were lost
1940:1.739 million ton 330 boats 12 Uboats were lost
1941:2.557 million ton 525 boats 23 UBoats were lost
1942:5.834 million ton 1188 boats 69 UBoats were lost
1943:1.92 million ton 328 boats 164 UBoats were lost
1944: O.225 million ton 40 boats 111 UBoats were lost
1945: 0.132 million ton 21 boats 16 UBoats were lost

 

[Del Boy]

One battle that is never discussed is the battle of the Atlantic, now what would have happened if that one was lost.

This one I remember ; it was fought desperately and personally by those like my uncles Fred and George, one who just missed the sinking of his ship HMS Hood through urgent call to subs and then was sunk twice more before the end of the war. The other a merchant marine stoker racing the Atlantic throughout WW11. Both survived to tell the tale, which led to my going to sea as soon as I left school - Ist opportunity.

I recall the defences around the North Sea coast of Scotland, I played in them daily, crawling through the continuous trenches, climbing the concrete block vehicle stoppers, inhabiting the pill boxes. We lived under threat constantly.

We could not have lost this one.

 

[USSWISCONSIN]

One battle that is never discussed is the battle of the Atlantic, now what would have happened if that one was lost.

While it was very important, the "Battle of the Atlantic" was more like a campaign in my way of thinking, a series of many separate battles fought over a period of years in a large theater of operations.

 

[LeEnfield]

Thousands of men died and thousands of ships lost, still unless it is fought on land then it doesn't count, or so it appears.

 

[USSWISCONSIN]

Thousands of men died and thousands of ships lost, still unless it is fought on land then it doesn't count, or so it appears.

It matters to me, I picked The Battle of Midway, all I was saying is that the Battle of the Atlantic was bigger than one battle, more like a campaign, it was a very important campaign consisting of many smaller battles. In my way of thinking a battle is a discrete action, taking place in a specific location and over a period of hours, days, or even many weeks - Like Stalingrad. An ocean is a very broad site for a single battle, and years is longer than a single battle in my way of thinking. This is only my opinion, and I in no way intend to demean the importance of this critical campaign for the survival of Britain. Comparing the Battle of the Atlantic to the other battles on the list, made me think of a campaign - which could be called a battle (like the Battle for France, the Battle for Germany) - but has a more descriptive term (campaign) available.

 

[MontyB]

I agree it is not that the Atlantic campaign was not important that it is not listed here but rather that it was a theatre of operations comprising many individual battles and as such is not really a "decisive battle".

 

[PFC Prokopy]

Midway was the most decisive battle in my opinion, it ended any hopes the Japanese had of ever winning

 

[Korean Seaboy]

Midway was the most decisive battle in my opinion, it ended any hopes the Japanese had of ever winning

Not so sure. If it was the most decisive for the Pacific, then my picks would be for Leyte Gulf, and Guadalcanal. Leyte Gulf more because it literally shattered the Japanese fleet

 

[MC Martel]

Haven't have time to currently read the whole 11 pages yet, though I will get to it. On one hand, I want to say kursk, since it basically garunteed the soviets victory at that point, but it wasn't all that decisive since it was a defensive victory. The most decisive battle of the war, I would say, is defintiely Operation Bagration, that was a huge push across a huge amount of territory with decisively favorable casualty rates for the victor that basically destorye the German army. At stalingrad, the red army still hadn't entirely recovered from the purge and it was a comparatively messy operation compared to the decisive and immensely powerful Operation Bagration.

 

[MontyB]

I think it is a valid argument, AG-C had survived several attempts in the past to destroy it Bagration was immensely successful from that point of view.

 

[lolwhassup]

One battle that never gets talked about much is the Russian Invasion of China when they drove the Japanese out of China in WW2 in about two weeks flat. Knowing what a formidable foe the Japanese are makes this Victory even more remarkable, they then went on to invade and capture Islands along the coast are were poised to invade the Japanese mainland. This in turn was one of the reasons that the Atom bomb was used to bring the war to a quick end and stop the Russians claiming large chunks of Japan to be handed over to them for administration reasons

What you forget is that:
1) When the Russians invaded Manchuria in 1945, the Japanese were spent. With their navy destroyed and home ground being taken, they geared up for a fanatical defense of their home islands. It wouldn't have mattered if the Russians attacked the Japanese troops in China or not, the Japanese had no Navy to transport them home not to mention the US had air superiority.
2)The Russians also lacked the equipment to undertake a massive amphibious invasion of Japan. The US already had Operation Downfall the plan to invade Japan and were poised to do so until Truman ordered the dropping of the bomb.
3)They dropped the Atom bomb because Truman wanted to prevent the immense loss of life that would have resulted from Operation Downfall.

On another note, Had they launched Operation Downfall it would've become the largest amphibious invasion in history, but they didn't.

 

[AVON]

If it was the most decisive for the Pacific, then my picks would be for Leyte Gulf, and Guadalcanal. Leyte Gulf more because it literally shattered the Japanese fleet

I would have to disagree, Leyte Gulf could have been damaging to the US Army had Adm. Kurita had the courage to press on. The landings in Leyte Gulf would have been destroyed. The amphibious fleet destroyed but, later when Adm. Kinkaid arrived and Adm. Halsey bring his carriers and his Iowa class battleships, Adm. Kurita's force would be destroyed. Now, if you are talking about Adm. Kinkaid losing his battle at Surigao Straits, it still would not reverse the entire US Navy's efforts in the Pacific theater. The war would have lasted a year or two longer but, the final victory would be the same.
The loss of the Battle for Guadalcanal, would also would have simply prolonged the war but, would not have turned the Pacific Theater completely around. Even a Japanese victory at Guadalcanal would still have drained Japanese forces of resources of which they could not replace. That was the problem for the Japanese, they did not prepare for a long war.
Now... the loss at Midway Island would have done more than just lose the island. It would have most likely caused the loss of two US carriers plus their air groups, the Japanese carrier fleet would still have airpower in that region of the Central Pacific, still have some of the finest pilots flying to protect the fleet. The loss at Midway Island would have given the Japanese Navy a good base just around 1,000 miles from Pearl Harbor. The US Navy having no battleships capable of combat and the Japanese still having carrier airpower would have put them in position to invade the Pearl Harbor and the other islands at the eastern end of the Hawaiian Island chain.

 

[MC Martel]

AVON, we're not discussion which COULD have been the most decisive, but which WAS, and, in the pacific, the answer there is Leyte Gulf, due to it being the final real destruction of japanese significant naval capability, I consider it to be basically the naval Bagration.

 

[AVON]

AVON, we're not discussion which COULD have been the most decisive, but which WAS, and, in the pacific, the answer there is Leyte Gulf, due to it being the final real destruction of japanese significant naval capability, I consider it to be basically the naval Bagration.

I still feel the Battle for Midway Island was the most decisive because the USN winning stopped the Japanese Navy from further conquest in the Pacific and placed them on the defensive for the remainder of the War. The loss at Midway would have been a horrible destruction to the only surface fighting forces the USN had!

So, why don't we just agree.... to disagree!

 

[MC Martel]

no, I mean that's a legitamate argument for why it WAS a decisive battle, I just took issue with you saying it should be ranked for how decisive it COULD have been. No issue with your last post.

 

[AVON]

I mean that's a legitamate argument for why it WAS a decisive battle, I just took issue with you saying it should be ranked for how decisive it COULD have been. No issue with your last post.

I understand what you are saying.

I feel the Battle of Midway Island was the most decisive because of the dire situation the USA was in. We have to look at the impact of both victory and loss would have on both sides.
Had the USN lost the battle, not only was the mid-Pacific open to the Japanese but, with a base at Midway Island the Japanese Army was in position to invade the Hawaiian Islands. At the very least, to put completely out of operation Pearl Harbor as a useful naval base. The loss the battle means there would have been no viable opposition to the next series of Japanese moves, to the Hawaii Islands, New Guinea, the Solomon chain, possibly New Zealand, etc. If the Navy was lucky, a loss at Midway would only mean the US Navy would only loose one additional carrier (two carriers sunk) and the one surviving carrier (probably badly damaged). One damaged carrier plus the USS Saratoga available a couple months later would be no real challenge to the Japanese Navy. The Americans would have no battleships, a few cruisers, a few destroyers and, a submarine force with rotten torpedoes. The carrier would be low on the number of fighters available, a few dive bombers and, no torpedo bombers! Experienced pilots would also be in short supply. In essence, a navy in name only, definitely in no position to assert any opposition! American losses at Midway would take a long time to replace. American manufacturing is beginning to increase but, far from the juggernaut it was a year and a half later.
The carrier Saratoga was being repaired (from a torpedo hit) and a overhaul -having her 8" guns removed in Seattle and arrived to late for the Battle of Midway. The USS Ranger was the largest carrier in the Atlantic (17,000-tons), was being used to ferry Army P-40s and provide air support in Operation Torch, in North Africa. The USN had a couple of escort carriers -converted oilers in the Atlantic but, five of these could not replace any fleet carrier.
The Japanese Navy loss at Midway, its carrier navy never fully recovered. They never got back the numbers of highly skilled pilots, aircrews and, maintainers. A victory for the Japanese at Midway meant their experienced aircrews, pilots and, maintainers would still be able provide great air support for the Japanese Navy, it could continue to exert its will. The war in the Pacific would last years longer before the USA would be in the position of invading the Japanese home islands -in late 1947.
American losses in other battles of the Pacific such as Leyte Gulf would have set the Pacific effort back maybe a year or so. Where as American war production was now up and swamping the Japanese in material produced. The Japanese plan for Leyte Gulf was to break through, slaughter the invasion beaches and the amphibious forces there. They might have been able to damage or destroy Adm. Olendorf's battleship support fleet but, the Japanese knew they had no way of dealing with Task Force 58. The Japanese loss the first Battle of The Filipine Sea against Task Force 58. They were not able to deal with Task Force 58 at the Mariannas (The Great Marianna's Turkey Shoot) and situation since then had only gotten worst. This is why they were willing to sacrifice the remainder of their carriers north of Cape Engaño.
American losses at Leyte Gulf could be replaced.... difficult but doable. Japanese losses were not replaceable.

 

[Korean Seaboy]

I understand what you are saying.

I feel the Battle of Midway Island was the most decisive because of the dire situation the USA was in. We have to look at the impact of both victory and loss would have on both sides.
Had the USN lost the battle, not only was the mid-Pacific open to the Japanese but, with a base at Midway Island the Japanese Army was in position to invade the Hawaiian Islands. At the very least, to put completely out of operation Pearl Harbor as a useful naval base. The loss the battle means there would have been no viable opposition to the next series of Japanese moves, to the Hawaii Islands, New Guinea, the Solomon chain, possibly New Zealand, etc. If the Navy was lucky, a loss at Midway would only mean the US Navy would only loose one additional carrier (two carriers sunk) and the one surviving carrier (probably badly damaged). One damaged carrier plus the USS Saratoga available a couple months later would be no real challenge to the Japanese Navy. The Americans would have no battleships, a few cruisers, a few destroyers and, a submarine force with rotten torpedoes. The carrier would be low on the number of fighters available, a few dive bombers and, no torpedo bombers! Experienced pilots would also be in short supply. In essence, a navy in name only, definitely in no position to assert any opposition! American losses at Midway would take a long time to replace. American manufacturing is beginning to increase but, far from the juggernaut it was a year and a half later.
The carrier Saratoga was being repaired (from a torpedo hit) and a overhaul -having her 8" guns removed in Seattle and arrived to late for the Battle of Midway. The USS Ranger was the largest carrier in the Atlantic (17,000-tons), was being used to ferry Army P-40s and provide air support in Operation Torch, in North Africa. The USN had a couple of escort carriers -converted oilers in the Atlantic but, five of these could not replace any fleet carrier.
The Japanese Navy loss at Midway, its carrier navy never fully recovered. They never got back the numbers of highly skilled pilots, aircrews and, maintainers. A victory for the Japanese at Midway meant their experienced aircrews, pilots and, maintainers would still be able provide great air support for the Japanese Navy, it could continue to exert its will. The war in the Pacific would last years longer before the USA would be in the position of invading the Japanese home islands -in late 1947.
American losses in other battles of the Pacific such as Leyte Gulf would have set the Pacific effort back maybe a year or so. Where as American war production was now up and swamping the Japanese in material produced. The Japanese plan for Leyte Gulf was to break through, slaughter the invasion beaches and the amphibious forces there. They might have been able to damage or destroy Adm. Olendorf's battleship support fleet but, the Japanese knew they had no way of dealing with Task Force 58. The Japanese loss the first Battle of The Filipine Sea against Task Force 58. They were not able to deal with Task Force 58 at the Mariannas (The Great Marianna's Turkey Shoot) and situation since then had only gotten worst. This is why they were willing to sacrifice the remainder of their carriers north of Cape Engaño.
American losses at Leyte Gulf could be replaced.... difficult but doable. Japanese losses were not replaceable.

Yes, I agree that Midway was one of the most decisive battles in WWII, but I still stand firmly on my position that Moscow was the most decisive. It was the turning point of the war, when Soviet forces finally stopped the once invincible German war machine, and finally turned the war against them. On the other hand, the Japanese forces could have been easily breakable on the land, and of course, the Soviets ruled in land. Then, no matter how much Japan built up its defenses and bunkers and such, the Soviet Union's vast resources and possible siege could easily put that off.
Just my opinion:-D