Damien435
Active member
Yeah but then you have to deal with that whole jail thing, and the conjugal visits is a myth so it's not as amazing as it sounds.
Looks like Bailouts are the "in" thing
Yeah but then you have to deal with that whole jail thing, and the conjugal visits is a myth so it's not as amazing as it sounds.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
So you don't think "I didn't realise that there was a stick of dynamite in the box of nails when I set fire to it and tried to drop it on the mob at my door" will work?
How about "The power was out so I lit the rag in the end of this bottle of gasoline to see what the noise was but the mob saw it and I dropped it while attempting to run away"?
How about "The power was out so I lit the rag in the end of this bottle of gasoline to see what the noise was but the mob saw it and I dropped it while attempting to run away"?
mmarsh
Active member
The $70 an hour claim has actually been debunked as inccurate.
SOURCE
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/24/opinion/main4630103.shtml
Summery:
But then what's the source of that $70 hourly figure? It didn't come out of thin air. Analysts came up with it by including the cost of all employer-provided benefits--namely, health insurance and pensions--and then dividing by the number of workers. The result, they found, was that benefits for Big Three cost about $42 per hour, per employee. Add that to the wages--again, $28 per hour--and you get the $70 figure. Voila.
Except ... notice something weird about this calculation? It's not as if each active worker is getting health benefits and pensions worth $42 per hour. That would come to nearly twice his or her wages. (Talk about gold-plated coverage!) Instead, each active worker is getting benefits equal only to a fraction of that--probably around $10 per hour, according to estimates from the International Motor Vehicle Program. The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees--in other words, the cost of benefits for other people. One of the few people to grasp this was Portfolio.com's Felix Salmon. As he noted friday, the claim that workers are getting $70 an hour in compensation is just "not true."
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In essence one only arrives at the $70 an hour by adding all salaries, bonuses, benefits, pensions, etc of all the past living employees (retirees) and dividing it by the number of ACTIVE employees.
The actual wage of a autoworker is $28 an hour which is the same as the Japanese car manufacturers.
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The Other Guy
Spam King
Yes but what is the standard of living in China? Here?
Unions prevent this place from becoming China.
The Other Guy
Spam King
Unions have the power to lobby Congress to pass such laws, which they would probably never pass otherwise.
Damien435
Active member
So does every other interest group in America, doesn't mean unions should be given special powers on top of that. Unions were necessary at one point, today their role is a remnant of a era that is long gone and unions, big business and government should be working together for the common good rather than every group fighting and scratching to defend its interests with no regard for the other two groups.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Yeah.
They're necessity but they do go too far at times. Like over here. My God the unions are excessive. Hyundai has one of the BEST paid workers in the whole country and they go on strike just about every year. It's no surprise that Hyundai's moving their factories to Eastern Europe and I think they have one in the United States as well. Americans are better workers.
I wished me and my military people could go on strike... so our kids could get some options for free college education. After all, our pay sucks, our health benefits are really "option to be a guinea pig," our retirement package is a joke, and all this despite the fact that the rest of the country is very much well off. And our equipment is falling apart and in some cases is worse than a lot of 3rd world country's armies. Mind you a few of it's excellent but seriously, a lot of it is just a disgrace.
They're necessity but they do go too far at times. Like over here. My God the unions are excessive. Hyundai has one of the BEST paid workers in the whole country and they go on strike just about every year. It's no surprise that Hyundai's moving their factories to Eastern Europe and I think they have one in the United States as well. Americans are better workers.
I wished me and my military people could go on strike... so our kids could get some options for free college education. After all, our pay sucks, our health benefits are really "option to be a guinea pig," our retirement package is a joke, and all this despite the fact that the rest of the country is very much well off. And our equipment is falling apart and in some cases is worse than a lot of 3rd world country's armies. Mind you a few of it's excellent but seriously, a lot of it is just a disgrace.
Duty Honor Country
Active member
I cannot describe my true feelings on bailouts here because I would surely be banned for my feelings. Everyday that bailout this and bailout that is in the news I want to go break something.
I firmly believe that bailouts are nothing more than rewarding those who have made irresponsible decisions. AIG gets bailed out, their executives go on a couple hundred thousand dollar spa retreat and a quail hunting expedition in England. Then they have the nerve to pay $500 million in bonuses that were due to employees over the last few years. Need I remind them that without a bailout the company could not have paid those bonuses.
If our government is going to embrace bailouts, I feel it should act like the FDIC does when it takes over a bank. When the FDIC takes over a faltering bank, the board of that bank is fired. Why? Because of bad management. If the big 3 get bailout out, those executives and the boards should get flushed down the toilet.
Just talking about this makes me so mad. I hate getting political but it was the democrats who support this more than the republicans. More democrats passed the first bailout as a percentage and most republicans are against the auto bailout. but people will give in to pressure and the next bailout will be passed.
When will this crap end? When will irresponsible companies stop being rewarded for bad decisions while good companies and tax payers bear the burden of bad business decisions.
Thank you to the US government for wasting billions. You have done the Forefathers of this country proud:bang:
I firmly believe that bailouts are nothing more than rewarding those who have made irresponsible decisions. AIG gets bailed out, their executives go on a couple hundred thousand dollar spa retreat and a quail hunting expedition in England. Then they have the nerve to pay $500 million in bonuses that were due to employees over the last few years. Need I remind them that without a bailout the company could not have paid those bonuses.
If our government is going to embrace bailouts, I feel it should act like the FDIC does when it takes over a bank. When the FDIC takes over a faltering bank, the board of that bank is fired. Why? Because of bad management. If the big 3 get bailout out, those executives and the boards should get flushed down the toilet.
Just talking about this makes me so mad. I hate getting political but it was the democrats who support this more than the republicans. More democrats passed the first bailout as a percentage and most republicans are against the auto bailout. but people will give in to pressure and the next bailout will be passed.
When will this crap end? When will irresponsible companies stop being rewarded for bad decisions while good companies and tax payers bear the burden of bad business decisions.
Thank you to the US government for wasting billions. You have done the Forefathers of this country proud:bang:
mmarsh
Active member
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I don't necessary disagree, but yet I am haunted by Herbert Hoover disastrous mistake of 1929.
For those of you not familiar of what I'm talking about, during the late 1920s there was a severe economist crisis in the USA, it essentially started with the financial institutions, and when asked for aid by the banks President Herbert Hoover made the decision NOT to intercede and result of his inaction which then spread throughout the economy was the Great Depression.
We sit on the edge of a economic chasm, we are already in a recession and the news is bleak for the forseeable future. Do we really want to repeat Hoover's mistake and do nothing???
Does the auto industry deserve bankruptcy? YES. It has been so badly mismanaged for the past 30 years, they deserve to fail. Let the Japanese and Germans sell cars in America if Detroit is too old, slow and stupid to stay competitive. I have never forgiven them for axing the EV1 10 years ago, so let the Japanese profit when the first Japanese EVs arrive here next year and sales go gangbusters. Hell most Japanese cars sold in America are made in America, so what difference does it make? Whether they are Japanese or American, Do you think most people care where the car was designed? US Consumers want a dependable car cheap, and the Big 3 have been making expesive junk for the past 2 decades.
However I fear letting Detroit fail would do even greater damage to the country at large as its such a key component to our economy.
Damien435
Active member
Yet this recession we're experiencing, according to an article on CNN, is only slightly worse than average and of the 8 recessions since the Great Depression, according to the same CNN article that I am struggling to find right now but will keep looking for, this one is only the fourth worst based on statistics including unemployment, job losses (yes, the two are apparently separate), foreclosures and a couple other criteria that I can not recall off the top of my head. Sorry for the lack of detail, I remember watching this on CNN two weeks ago but for the life of me can't even remember if it was Wolf Blitzer or Lou Dobbs. Detroit is not the economic machine it was 30 years ago when Chrysler was bailed out, it no longer makes up such a large part of our GDP and with the Big 3's sails tanking in recent years it is obvious something is fundamentally wrong with their business models and new blood is needed. I would be more open to the idea of bailing out Detroit if the CEO's, CFO's, and Board of Directors for these companies included their resignations with their plans for what to do with the money. I don't see any Lee Iacoca's at the Big 3 right now, and having the money is one thing but knowing what to do with it is a totally different beast, I don't trust the current leadership at GM, Ford or Chrysler. Let the companies re-organize under bankcruptcy, Kmart did it in only a few short years and emerged so strong they were able to buy out Sears.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
I don't understand why the CEOs and other appropriate persons are not fired or imprisoned. After all, if most people cause damage, they have to pay for it or face time behind bars or both.
The Other Guy
Spam King
I'm confused as to why $700 billion for the banks is okay, but 1/20th of that sum for the auto industry, the only blue collar industry left in this country, is a no-go.
The conservatives are against it purely because they see this as a chance to squash the unions. If the unions go down in a re-structuring of the Auto industry, look for wages to drop to minimum, healthcare benefits to disappear, and bonuses/overtime wages to decrease.
The conservatives are against it purely because they see this as a chance to squash the unions. If the unions go down in a re-structuring of the Auto industry, look for wages to drop to minimum, healthcare benefits to disappear, and bonuses/overtime wages to decrease.
The Other Guy
Spam King
How is this the the fault of the UAW?
Lessee. Major advantages of the Japanese companies include government healthcare, a wish to sell 10 little cars instead of 3 big ones, superior design departments (or at least one that redesigns when new regulations begin instead of whining about it) and combide that with the collapse of the US economy, THAT caused the Auto Industry to collapse. Not the Unions.
Why should the faults of the few hurt the many?
Duty Honor Country
Active member
I have studied this with great interest in college and on my own. There is a problem with using the in action of President Hoover. In the 1920s, the government cut its spending down and paid off most of the national debt. When the Great Depression hit, Hoover decided to cut government spending even more, thus taking money out of the economy.
Now we come to today where we have had run away government spending and a nasty national debt. We cannot act like FDR did and spend our way out of the Great Depression. In 1932, the government budget was about 8% of the GDP. Last year the GDP was 13.8 trillion. The national budget was 2.8 trillion. Lets tack on that wonderful $800 billion bail out (with $100 billion in squealing pork, bribes in my opinion) another $100 billion for other the AIG bailout. That gives us a budget of $3.7 trillion or 26.8% of the USA's GDP. We all accept that the GDP is going to shrink next year but the President Elect is pushing for an auto bailout, a huge public works project to put 2.5 million people back to work, the Dems are talking about another stimulus package, and a majority of US governors want a bailout too...
...when does it stop? We cannot continue to spend like this. I watched democrats on MSNBC declare that we should spend like there is no tomorrow in the short term regardless of the long term effects. Our budget is too bloated. A little over 50% of our budget is entitements and that will grow with the new administration. There is going to come a point where inflation is going to kick in.
Lastly, I heard an interesting fact again on MSNBC. Toyota's prius, the most successful hybrid car on the market, is sold at a loss to Toyota. Meaning it is not profitable. Congress is frothing at the mouth to make Detroit green.
I don't have the answers, but I believe it is time to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough. I was never for the $600 stimulus, the AIG bailout, the pork ridden $800 billion bailout and I am not for the proposed one. Sometimes it takes a little short term pain to get long term progress. Now more than ever I agree with Libertarians.
Sorry for the disorganized ramble, it is how things came out
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to add to the idea of why the auto industry failed...cheap credit. For the last 20 years credit was available to all. People spent like there was no tomorrow; borrowing for cars, getting credit cards, taking out 2nd home mortgages and such. A society could not maintain that debt without recourse. That is my 2 cents (not on my credit card may I add).
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mmarsh
Active member
The thing is, the FDR government who spent its way out of the Depression actually worked. And FDR did it by spending on infrustructure projects such has HOOVER Dam, the widening of the Mississippi, highway project etc.
The reason why it worked is because these projects created thousands of new jobs for the construction project. The Construction Industry is a key economic lynch-pin, if it does well then so does the rest of the economy.
Obama's plan is a exact duplication of FDR, create new jobs in construction, (he his planning on 2.8 new jobs) AND it will fix America's crumbling infrustucture which NEEDS to be done anyway (less we want anymore bridge collapses) to boot.
I think its a brilliant idea, kills two birds with a single stone.
The reason why it worked is because these projects created thousands of new jobs for the construction project. The Construction Industry is a key economic lynch-pin, if it does well then so does the rest of the economy.
Obama's plan is a exact duplication of FDR, create new jobs in construction, (he his planning on 2.8 new jobs) AND it will fix America's crumbling infrustucture which NEEDS to be done anyway (less we want anymore bridge collapses) to boot.
I think its a brilliant idea, kills two birds with a single stone.
The Other Guy
Spam King
But they make beyond enough money on their small cars and sedans to get by just fine. Meanwhile, American companies are desperately trying to sell SUVs that are 1-made on the cheap in mexico, 2-inferior to Japanese designs, and 3-out of popular favor. But they make a larger profit every time they sell one, so they are figuring that 1000x > 100y. What they fail to realize is that there will always be a steady demand for small affordable cars, while the market on big vehicles fluxuates, or as now, vanishes completely. if x=5 but y=500, guess who's better off, car company x or car company y? The entire American car market discovered this earlier this year when the downturn started gaining speed. Everyone took losses, not only the Big Three but also Volkswagen-Audi, Nissan, and even Toyota. This only company that did not is the lone company that did not invest heavily in the SUV craze; Honda. They kept on building Civics and Accords despite taking heavy criticism for not potentially tripling profits by diving headfirst into the SUV craze. And when sales froze, they were the only ones not bleeding from the head.
But now even they're taking losses, which brings me to my reasoning as to why the Big Three cannot fail; it would cause a mass collapse in the World Auto industry. Opel (owned by GM) and Ford are the two biggest imports into Europe. The only domestic marque in Australia, Holden, is owned by GM. The loss of these companies would send shockwaves to the survivors as well, as consumers would not trust the remaining corporations (what good does your 10-year warranty on your Hyundai do if the company, seemingly doing okay now, fails next year?) and buy even fewer cars than they are already. During the Great Depression, over 500 Automakers in the US alone closed their doors for good. Soon nothing but Chinese cars could be left. This could be the collapse that makes China a world superpower, if one of the State Industry marqes rises up to take the place of the Then-Defunct American Big Three.
I'm willing to divvy up some extra cash if it means my grandparents keep their Health Insurance.
