Light Tanks
Doppleganger
Active member
godofthunder9010 said:
Well they'd have to hit what, 5 tyres before runflat would really have an impact? I don't think the guys in the Stryker will be sitting idly by either unless you're thinking of them being ambushed as part of a convoy. I'm sure the potential weaknesses of air-filled tyres have been thoroughly evaluated for more than one country to adopt an 8 wheel, air-filled tyre design. Having 8 wheels helps with redundancy too.
And as for weapons systems onboard I'd say LOSAT or maybe HATM.
Kozzy Mozzy
Active member
LOSAT missiles cost so much you can't even fire them in training. They're only for the airborne.
Missileer
Active member
Kozzy Mozzy said:
I don't get it. What does Airborne have to do with anti-tank missiles?
By the way I prepared a system at the end of October for live fire. As far as I know they fired only one missile but the missile itself has very few if any problems, the interfacing and guidance electronics is the main problem. We redesigned circuitry from another platform and not all the bugs are out yet. The laser and receiver are antiquated and are being redesigned as we speak. To designate and track multiple targets is not extremely easy to do cheaply.
Kozzy Mozzy
Active member
LOSAT equipped Humvees are going to be deployed with the 82nd airborne. I haven't heard anything about any other units going to receive them.
I would assume the reason the LOSAT is so expensive is not because of it's electronics, which are already established but because accelerating something to 5000f/s is pretty freakin' hard
I would assume the reason the LOSAT is so expensive is not because of it's electronics, which are already established but because accelerating something to 5000f/s is pretty freakin' hard
Missileer
Active member
I misunderstood about the airborne part. I thought you were referring to the platform for the missile. You're probably right, I can't see high production rates on LOSAT. I've talked with the LockMart people down in Grand Prairie when I was there for fault testing and they quoted a number to me that sounded pretty high but since they are prime contractors, it may be wishful thinking on their part.
I do know that supersonic speed used for a kinetic kill vehicle uses very expensive motors and improved fuel.
I do know that supersonic speed used for a kinetic kill vehicle uses very expensive motors and improved fuel.
godofthunder9010
Active member
I just don't understand sticking it on a Humvee, even a decently armored one. It makes the LOSAT easier to take out than it would be on a better armored chasis. Sticking it on top of the Stryker or something similar seems a lot more reasonable to me. Kill the Humvee and you kill the LOSAT.
godofthunder9010
Active member
The Stryker is a better chassis for deploying the LOSAT then. The have a lot more weight than a hummer, so they're inherently more stable. I don't know enough about the LOSAT to say for sure, but it's a lot less likely to need to stop and setup outriggers in order to fire.
Seems that the Stryker pretty well fills the role of a 'light tank' for all intents and purposes that I can think of other than size. Its a pretty big "light" but that thing can move and I can't see it having a problem with any terrain that a tracked vehicle could do any better in. Its an inherently a highly adaptable chassis with multiple configurations already designed. I don't know why they seem to be either or. Only MGS or only TOW or only Stinger ... etc.
Seems that the Stryker pretty well fills the role of a 'light tank' for all intents and purposes that I can think of other than size. Its a pretty big "light" but that thing can move and I can't see it having a problem with any terrain that a tracked vehicle could do any better in. Its an inherently a highly adaptable chassis with multiple configurations already designed. I don't know why they seem to be either or. Only MGS or only TOW or only Stinger ... etc.
godofthunder9010
Active member
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_Stryker2,,00.html
Well, looking at that article, perhaps the Stryker isn't the light for all situations. Its a tad to big and too heavy for some things. Its too lightly armored for others. It doesn't maneuver well because it's too long and it doesn't do very well on rough terrain according to the article. It's all we have in that department. That article speculates that a return to M113's may be a good idea. Perhaps an upgrade of existing M113, but making new ones I don't agree with.
Light Armored Vehicles seems to be a category that the USA isn't doing too well in. We need more options. The one thing the article is somewhat oblivious to: No amount of protection is ever going to be enough for all wartime situations.
Well, looking at that article, perhaps the Stryker isn't the light for all situations. Its a tad to big and too heavy for some things. Its too lightly armored for others. It doesn't maneuver well because it's too long and it doesn't do very well on rough terrain according to the article. It's all we have in that department. That article speculates that a return to M113's may be a good idea. Perhaps an upgrade of existing M113, but making new ones I don't agree with.
Light Armored Vehicles seems to be a category that the USA isn't doing too well in. We need more options. The one thing the article is somewhat oblivious to: No amount of protection is ever going to be enough for all wartime situations.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Light armored vehicles have always been tricky for everyone.
The Stryker MGS depends on outshooting its opponent and not getting hit in return. It would never survive a direct hit.
But you gotta have one or the other...
I think if you look back, there really wasn't a REALLY successful light tank design.
A neccessary type of weapon, but will never excell when it gets into a fight.
The Stryker MGS depends on outshooting its opponent and not getting hit in return. It would never survive a direct hit.
But you gotta have one or the other...
I think if you look back, there really wasn't a REALLY successful light tank design.
A neccessary type of weapon, but will never excell when it gets into a fight.
AussieNick
Forum Digger
The Australian ASLAV III has run flats. My mate from 2 cav drove one in Iraq. You can drive on the flats for a very long way, plus they are fairly impervious to small arms fire, incredibly hard and thick rubber.
The ASLAV is fitted with a 25mm chain gun, and either .50 or 7.62mm MG or both. But they are being upgraded as we speak to have the RWS system. This is a remote station mounted on the turret. It controls the MGs, a 40mm automatic grenade launcher, and possibly a TOW system.
Being remote it means that at no time do the crews expose themselves to the outside. It makes life very easy for them as it uses a laser range finder and it calculates the perfect trajectory for the weapon being used.
FO Seaman
Active member
M1128 Stryker MGS
The two variations of the LAV III that will be produced for the Interim Armored Vehicle program are the Infantry Carrier Vehicle and the Mobile Gun System. The Stryker Mobile Gun System carries a 105mm cannon, the same gun tube as the one on the original M-1 Abrams tank. This is not a tank replacement, but it gives a direct fire capability to support the infantry elements. The principal function of the Mobile Gun System (MGS) is to provide rapid and lethal direct fires to support assaulting infantry. The MGS is a key weapons overmatch platform to ensure mission success and survivability of the Combined Arms Company.
With a successful LRIP decision, Stryker brigade first unit equipped date for the MGS is scheduled for April 2005.
Successful decisive combat operations are characterized by the application of overwhelming precision firepower in a killing zone while countering the enemy’s ability to effectively return fire. The IBCT’s Combined Arms Company operations are conducted in a collective synchronization of overmatching firepower to ensure success. The MGS is essential in setting and maintaining the tactical conditions for this collective overmatch by providing the capability to rapidly and in succession engage and destroy a diversity of stationary and mobile threat personnel, infrastructure, and materiel targets. It will have the capability to apply a broad spectrum of munitions with lethal effects under all weather and visibility conditions.
In applying lethal effects as part of the Combined Arms Company, the MGS will survive on the battlefield by taking advantage of the high levels of threat and situational understanding resident in the Brigade formation. It will engage enemy positions and targets as part of the Combined Arms Company from ranges and locations outside the enemy’s kill zone capability. It will avoid high risk terrain profiles. Its inherent mobility and agility will enable it to deliver precision fires from alternate and successive positions outside the enemy’s acquisition and fire delivery reaction time.
The Mobile Gun System configuration carries a General Dynamics 105mm tank cannon in a low-profile, fully stabilized, “shoot on the move” turret. Its armor protects the three-soldier crew from machine gun bullets, mortar and artillery fragments on the battlefield. The Stryker Mobile Gun System can fire 18 rounds of 105-mm main gun ammunition; 400 rounds of .50 caliber ammunition; and 3,400 rounds of 7.62-mm ammunition. It operates with the latest C4ISR equipment as well as detectors for nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.
The Stryker Mobile Gun System [MGS] will employ four types of 105mm tactical ammunition. High explosive/high explosive plastic (HE/HEP) ammunition will destroy hardened enemy bunkers, machinegun and sniper positions, and create openings in walls through which infantry can pass. Kinetic energy (KE) ammunition will be employed to destroy a variety of Level II armored vehicles. High explosive, anti-tank (HEAT) ammunition is well suited to defeat a variety ofthin-skinned vehicles and provide fragmentation effects. Finally, anti-personnel (canister) ammunition will defeat attacking dismounted infantry in the open. HE/HEP, KE and HEAT each have or will have complementary training ammunition.
In January 2002 the US Army awarded GM GDLS Defense Group, a joint venture between General Motors and General Dynamics Land Systems, a delivery order worth $48 million for 10 Mobile Gun System vehicles to equip its new Brigade Combat Teams. These mobile gun systems were to be delivered monthly from July 2002 to January 2003 at General Dynamics Anniston (Ala.) facility. General Dynamics delivered the first of eight pre-production Stryker Mobile Gun Systems to the US Army on 26 July 2002. The pre-production Stryker Mobile Gun Systems are being assembled in the General Dynamics Muskegon technology center through December, using $62 million in research and development funds of the $4 billion contact. Production of an additional 72 mobile gun variants begins in 2003 at General Dynamics Anniston, Alabama, facility.
The Stryker vehicles are designed not to exceed a 38,000-pound weight limit, to enable them to fly on a C-130. As of early 2002 the mobile gun exceeded the maximum by 3,000 pounds. The mobile gun system had weighed 45,000 pounds until an aggressive weight reduction program began in January 2002.
The effects of this problem are apparent in the composition of the MGS Platoon (Mobile Gun System.) FM 7-22 lays out the MGS PLT as an organic element of each IBCT Infantry Company within the IBCT BN. Each Company Commander has at his disposal within the MGS PLT 3 MGS Strykers, with the mission of supporting the dismounted Infantry with direct, supporting fires IOT destroy hardened enemy bunkers, machine guns, and sniper positions. The MGS Stryker is armed with a 105mm Low Profile Turret capable of a 6 second cycle rate and 18 ready rounds. Apparently, the MGS is a popular system and will be a tremendous asset to the IBCT Company Commander. Similar to an AT Platoon attached to an Airborne Infantry Company; the MGS PLT will provide the lighter armed Strykers and dismounts with outstanding firepower.
The armor protection creates a contradiction for the MGS Stryker. Currently, the MGS is fielded with armor protection capable of .50 cal munitions. The add-on scaleable armor in development promises protection against 14.5mm and hand-held HEAT up to and including RPG-7 penetration. The obvious rationale for the developmental armor is the precise evaluation of MG and ATGM threat during support to infantry assault operations. Emerging technology finds itself between a rock and a hard place when faced with the MGS platform. Armor already in use on tanks can stop ATGM, but is too heavy for the air-mobile MGS. Developmental reactive armor must meet the cost, weight, size, and soldier-proof requirements established for the MGS Stryker. Caught in-between the weight restrictions and the desire to protect against ATGM threats on the future battlefield, the MGS is suffering an identity crisis. The stryker makes no attempt to perform in ways it is not capable of; it embraces it's light-skinned composition, and uses it's reduced weight and speed to fight as a faster, more agile force on the battlefield. The MGS, with it's tank-like 105mm top, wants the best of both worlds with the speed of the Stryker, and armor resistance of a Bradley. As seen in large cashes seized in Afghanistan, the RPG is a cheap and heavily saturated weapon system available to every possible IBCT opponent in the world.
The platoon includes three MGS vehicles, each with a crew of three: VC, gunner, and driver. The platoon leader and platoon sergeant are the VCs for two of the MGS vehicles.
The two variations of the LAV III that will be produced for the Interim Armored Vehicle program are the Infantry Carrier Vehicle and the Mobile Gun System. The Stryker Mobile Gun System carries a 105mm cannon, the same gun tube as the one on the original M-1 Abrams tank. This is not a tank replacement, but it gives a direct fire capability to support the infantry elements. The principal function of the Mobile Gun System (MGS) is to provide rapid and lethal direct fires to support assaulting infantry. The MGS is a key weapons overmatch platform to ensure mission success and survivability of the Combined Arms Company.
With a successful LRIP decision, Stryker brigade first unit equipped date for the MGS is scheduled for April 2005.
Successful decisive combat operations are characterized by the application of overwhelming precision firepower in a killing zone while countering the enemy’s ability to effectively return fire. The IBCT’s Combined Arms Company operations are conducted in a collective synchronization of overmatching firepower to ensure success. The MGS is essential in setting and maintaining the tactical conditions for this collective overmatch by providing the capability to rapidly and in succession engage and destroy a diversity of stationary and mobile threat personnel, infrastructure, and materiel targets. It will have the capability to apply a broad spectrum of munitions with lethal effects under all weather and visibility conditions.
In applying lethal effects as part of the Combined Arms Company, the MGS will survive on the battlefield by taking advantage of the high levels of threat and situational understanding resident in the Brigade formation. It will engage enemy positions and targets as part of the Combined Arms Company from ranges and locations outside the enemy’s kill zone capability. It will avoid high risk terrain profiles. Its inherent mobility and agility will enable it to deliver precision fires from alternate and successive positions outside the enemy’s acquisition and fire delivery reaction time.
The Mobile Gun System configuration carries a General Dynamics 105mm tank cannon in a low-profile, fully stabilized, “shoot on the move” turret. Its armor protects the three-soldier crew from machine gun bullets, mortar and artillery fragments on the battlefield. The Stryker Mobile Gun System can fire 18 rounds of 105-mm main gun ammunition; 400 rounds of .50 caliber ammunition; and 3,400 rounds of 7.62-mm ammunition. It operates with the latest C4ISR equipment as well as detectors for nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.
The Stryker Mobile Gun System [MGS] will employ four types of 105mm tactical ammunition. High explosive/high explosive plastic (HE/HEP) ammunition will destroy hardened enemy bunkers, machinegun and sniper positions, and create openings in walls through which infantry can pass. Kinetic energy (KE) ammunition will be employed to destroy a variety of Level II armored vehicles. High explosive, anti-tank (HEAT) ammunition is well suited to defeat a variety ofthin-skinned vehicles and provide fragmentation effects. Finally, anti-personnel (canister) ammunition will defeat attacking dismounted infantry in the open. HE/HEP, KE and HEAT each have or will have complementary training ammunition.
In January 2002 the US Army awarded GM GDLS Defense Group, a joint venture between General Motors and General Dynamics Land Systems, a delivery order worth $48 million for 10 Mobile Gun System vehicles to equip its new Brigade Combat Teams. These mobile gun systems were to be delivered monthly from July 2002 to January 2003 at General Dynamics Anniston (Ala.) facility. General Dynamics delivered the first of eight pre-production Stryker Mobile Gun Systems to the US Army on 26 July 2002. The pre-production Stryker Mobile Gun Systems are being assembled in the General Dynamics Muskegon technology center through December, using $62 million in research and development funds of the $4 billion contact. Production of an additional 72 mobile gun variants begins in 2003 at General Dynamics Anniston, Alabama, facility.
The Stryker vehicles are designed not to exceed a 38,000-pound weight limit, to enable them to fly on a C-130. As of early 2002 the mobile gun exceeded the maximum by 3,000 pounds. The mobile gun system had weighed 45,000 pounds until an aggressive weight reduction program began in January 2002.
The effects of this problem are apparent in the composition of the MGS Platoon (Mobile Gun System.) FM 7-22 lays out the MGS PLT as an organic element of each IBCT Infantry Company within the IBCT BN. Each Company Commander has at his disposal within the MGS PLT 3 MGS Strykers, with the mission of supporting the dismounted Infantry with direct, supporting fires IOT destroy hardened enemy bunkers, machine guns, and sniper positions. The MGS Stryker is armed with a 105mm Low Profile Turret capable of a 6 second cycle rate and 18 ready rounds. Apparently, the MGS is a popular system and will be a tremendous asset to the IBCT Company Commander. Similar to an AT Platoon attached to an Airborne Infantry Company; the MGS PLT will provide the lighter armed Strykers and dismounts with outstanding firepower.
The armor protection creates a contradiction for the MGS Stryker. Currently, the MGS is fielded with armor protection capable of .50 cal munitions. The add-on scaleable armor in development promises protection against 14.5mm and hand-held HEAT up to and including RPG-7 penetration. The obvious rationale for the developmental armor is the precise evaluation of MG and ATGM threat during support to infantry assault operations. Emerging technology finds itself between a rock and a hard place when faced with the MGS platform. Armor already in use on tanks can stop ATGM, but is too heavy for the air-mobile MGS. Developmental reactive armor must meet the cost, weight, size, and soldier-proof requirements established for the MGS Stryker. Caught in-between the weight restrictions and the desire to protect against ATGM threats on the future battlefield, the MGS is suffering an identity crisis. The stryker makes no attempt to perform in ways it is not capable of; it embraces it's light-skinned composition, and uses it's reduced weight and speed to fight as a faster, more agile force on the battlefield. The MGS, with it's tank-like 105mm top, wants the best of both worlds with the speed of the Stryker, and armor resistance of a Bradley. As seen in large cashes seized in Afghanistan, the RPG is a cheap and heavily saturated weapon system available to every possible IBCT opponent in the world.
The platoon includes three MGS vehicles, each with a crew of three: VC, gunner, and driver. The platoon leader and platoon sergeant are the VCs for two of the MGS vehicles.
FO Seaman
Active member
New MGS rounds!
XM1040 105mm Anti-personnel (canister)
Anti-personnel (canister) ammunition, XM1040, will provide the Stryker Mobile Gun System [MGS] with the capability to effectively provide rapid, lethal fire against massed assaulting infantry at close range (500 meters or less). The cartridge is intended to be a simple, low-cost, low-technology cartridge, similar in concept to a shotgun shell. There are no cartridges that meet this requirement in the current inventory. Development begins in FY03 and will leverage technology with the 120mm, XM1028 canister cartridge program.
Went to a Master Gunner conference in Norfolk with my dad. Heard all about new weps and ammo.
XM1040 105mm Anti-personnel (canister)
Anti-personnel (canister) ammunition, XM1040, will provide the Stryker Mobile Gun System [MGS] with the capability to effectively provide rapid, lethal fire against massed assaulting infantry at close range (500 meters or less). The cartridge is intended to be a simple, low-cost, low-technology cartridge, similar in concept to a shotgun shell. There are no cartridges that meet this requirement in the current inventory. Development begins in FY03 and will leverage technology with the 120mm, XM1028 canister cartridge program.
Went to a Master Gunner conference in Norfolk with my dad. Heard all about new weps and ammo.
i don't know if the scorpion light recon tank ahs been mentioned already but the NZDF used these. and as with alot of equipment used here, the scorpions were modified, with some interesting results.
add one jaguar V12 engine
result; light tank capable of 100kph.
in fact my family was on holiday in the north island and we were driving down the desert highway that goes past wiauru army camp. we were past byone of these vehicles! scared the sh*t out of the driver!
in fact the automobile association subjected one of these vehicles to they're standard road test....which involves a panic stop from highway speeds. it tore huge holes in the highway surface!
NZ recently decided to buy the LAV armoured vehicle which i must say alot of people have serious doubts about. and as an aside; the stryker is the most horrific looking thing i have ever seen!
add one jaguar V12 engine
result; light tank capable of 100kph.
in fact my family was on holiday in the north island and we were driving down the desert highway that goes past wiauru army camp. we were past byone of these vehicles! scared the sh*t out of the driver!
in fact the automobile association subjected one of these vehicles to they're standard road test....which involves a panic stop from highway speeds. it tore huge holes in the highway surface!
NZ recently decided to buy the LAV armoured vehicle which i must say alot of people have serious doubts about. and as an aside; the stryker is the most horrific looking thing i have ever seen!
godofthunder9010
Active member
Roughly 62 mph. Not bad. Of course, if the USA wants to add the Scorpion to their arsenal -- we make it so that'd be only too easy.