Karzai supports Obama's plan to reach out to Taliban moderates

[Rob Henderson]

Since you put it that way... No.

Of course not... Never mind.

Not sure it is a question of dividing the Taliban. Since most moderate Afghans and possibly moderate Taliban's excepted the coalition when the allied forces drove the hardliners out.

A "moderate Taliban" might resemble a Hyena with a hardliner being closer to a Hyena with rabies.
Is there really a Taliban "moderate"? Has anyone actually seen one?

Only those who have stayed extensively in Iraq and Afghanistan are qualified to say whether or not anyone has seen a moderate Taliban. But unless we (America) are prepared to dig in for the long haul, we need to find other options to try and make the Middle East as stable as possible.

 

[Chukpike]

A "moderate Taliban" might resemble a Hyena with a hardliner being closer to a Hyena with rabies. Is there really a Taliban "moderate"? Has anyone actually seen one?

All Organizations have elements that are more or less extreme than the average, even terrorist organizations. For example the REAL IRA just made the point this weekend that despite the peace accords, its still not playing ball like the rest of the IRA.

In Afghanistan, it was the moderate talibans that urged Mullah Omar to kick al-Qaeda out of Afghanistan after 9-11 for fear the US would intervene militarily.

Of course, we know how far those moderates got.

Here is a quote from Mullah Omar:
"All Taliban are moderate. There are two things: extremism ["ifraat", or doing something to excess] and conservatism ["tafreet", or doing something insufficiently]. So in that sense, we are all moderates - taking the middle path."
On whether moderate Taliban will join the new Afghani government". BBC News. 2001-11-15

 

[Partisan]

Of course not... Never mind.

Only those who have stayed extensively in Iraq and Afghanistan are qualified to say whether or not anyone has seen a moderate Taliban. But unless we (America) are prepared to dig in for the long haul, we need to find other options to try and make the Middle East as stable as possible.

Read up on the background of the taliban, it is an organisation which has its own internal strife, not about their objectives, but how these objectives are achieved.

I got bad news for you, America & NATO, need to be in it for the long haul, this is not a simple shoot and scoot operation, it involves many facets, not least of which is sitting down with all parties to get some common ground - that really is the only option in making the Middle East stable.

 

[Rob Henderson]

Read up on the background of the taliban, it is an organisation which has its own internal strife, not about their objectives, but how these objectives are achieved.

I got bad news for you, America & NATO, need to be in it for the long haul, this is not a simple shoot and scoot operation, it involves many facets, not least of which is sitting down with all parties to get some common ground - that really is the only option in making the Middle East stable.

Just like any political system... There wouldn't be parties if the United States always agreed on the MANNER in which goals were achieved...


I agree with everything you've said about the politics of the situation (about having to sit down and get somewhere diplomatically). I was referring to the United States MILITARY... Saying that unless we're willing to permanently occupy Iraq and Afghanistan, then we need to try something different, and I think peace talks are JUST what we need.

 

[tomtom22]

The topic was ........... Are dialouges with the Taliban a viable option.

The topic is not:

1. How popular is the POTUS with the rest of the world.

2. Will dialouges with the Taliban end up with POTUS being and I qoute

"Blown Up"

3. If 2 happens how will it effect the the world.

So get back on topic.

If you want to discuss 1-3 start a new thread.

Reminder: STICK TO THE SUBJECT

Any more straying will result in infractions.

 

[mmarsh]

Of course, we know how far those moderates got.

Here is a quote from Mullah Omar:
"All Taliban are moderate. There are two things: extremism ["ifraat", or doing something to excess] and conservatism ["tafreet", or doing something insufficiently]. So in that sense, we are all moderates - taking the middle path."
On whether moderate Taliban will join the new Afghani government". BBC News. 2001-11-15

Well I didn't say they were successful, only that they existed and that dialogue is possible with those people.

As for Mullah Omar I wouldn't trust his word on much, espicially about the quote above. He would be one of those people the US would NOT be dialogueing with.

 

[Partisan]

Well I didn't say they were successful, only that they existed and that dialogue is possible with those people.

As for Mullah Omar I wouldn't trust his word on much, espicially about the quote above. He would be one of those people the US would NOT be dialogueing with.

We (GB) used to say the same about Gerry Adams & Brian McGuiness, look at them now!

 

[mmarsh]

We (GB) used to say the same about Gerry Adams & Brian McGuiness, look at them now!

Yes but both Adams and McGuiness are both educated men and whose struggle is political not religious. Neither man called for the absolute destruction of the UK, or even the Provo's in Norther Ireland.

The problem with dealing like Omar is that they believe they are executing God's will, its very hard to deal with people who are that radical. Which is why I think Obama is correct in addressing the Taliban "Middle-Management" instead of the boss.

 

[Gunner13]

Things to remember:

1. What Hamid Karzai thinks, or says, is of very little relevance. His government is dead on its feet, has little authority beyond the major urban areas (not many) and can't provide even basic services to most Afghans. Afghanistan cries out for good governance and they aren't getting from this guy, or his cronies.

2. You can rent an Afghan's loyalty, but never buy it. The Taliban used to run things in Afghanistan, want very much to be in charge again (their dreams of a Greater Pastunistan are never far away) and are a bunch of unprincipled barbarians. We need to be very careful about who we talk to and trust there.

The International Community and the US have been giving to Afghanistan for some time. The place was in terrible shape even before the US invaded and is much better off in many ways, but the Afghans have to step up and take the lead more. Sure, we will help and support them, but they have to save, and build, their own country. Governance is more important than security right now and if that is not fixed, we are wasting our time.

And, yes, they sure do like to fight (and pile rocks, but that's another story)

 

[03USMC]

Things to remember:



2. You can rent an Afghan's loyalty, but never buy it. The Taliban used to run things in Afghanistan, want very much to be in charge again (their dreams of a Greater Pastunistan are never far away) and are a bunch of unprincipled barbarians. We need to be very careful about who we talk to and trust there.

This is my worry. If dialouges are opened with "moderate" elements of the Taliban are these elements simply going to pay lip service until they are back in control. With the Taliban there is not going to be a secular type goverment or even a democratic type goverment. It goes against their entire belief system.

So they get back in power after dialouges and it's back to the 3rd Century Jack azzery that they are famous for.

I think there is a large misconception in the West that the Taliban is a bunch of backward Afghani versions of Hill Billies and Rednecks. Some think that maybe if we give em 'lectricity and indoor outhouses and build em a Afghani version of the TVA that they are gonna change their tune and join the 21st Century. I don't see it happening.

 

[Rob Henderson]

Is there any other way though? I mean, it would take us forever to try and BEAT these people into submission, they've already showed countless times that they would rather die than see any type of democratic ideals enter their country... I think almost 10 years is enough time to say "time to change tactics."

 

[03USMC]

You can try anything. You can try to make this work. You can try to make the Taliban reach an accord. It's not the trying it's the actual doing and making this work, with the Talibans cooperation. It's about making A'stan less of a threat as a terrorist training ground and safe haven.

I don't see it working.

Taliban Cooperation will hinge on:

1. All Western Infidels out of Afghanistan

2. Taliban back in power

Followed quickly by:

1. Put yer burka back on

2. Destruction of radios and TV's

3. Welcome back great benafactors of the Jihad, Inshallah we have defeated the infidel....again. Welcome to the 3rd Century.....again.

My prediction. Abject Lesson in failure for the west.

 

[Rob Henderson]

Vietnam 2.0 eh? Well, you're makin sense... If Iraq and Afghanistan REALLY want to be free, they'll have to do it on their own... Negotiating with the Taliban isn't going to help anything I suppose... A noble sentiment.

 

[mmarsh]

You can try anything. You can try to make this work. You can try to make the Taliban reach an accord. It's not the trying it's the actual doing and making this work, with the Talibans cooperation. It's about making A'stan less of a threat as a terrorist training ground and safe haven.

I don't see it working.

Taliban Cooperation will hinge on:

1. All Western Infidels out of Afghanistan

2. Taliban back in power

Followed quickly by:

1. Put yer burka back on

2. Destruction of radios and TV's

3. Welcome back great benafactors of the Jihad, Inshallah we have defeated the infidel....again. Welcome to the 3rd Century.....again.

My prediction. Abject Lesson in failure for the west.

I would think the Obama Administration would be well aware of this scenario which is why these demands would never be accepted. But I could think of a few ideas that the more moderate Taliban might be willing to accept including:

1. They can sleep at night without fear of a JDAM coming to pay them visit them. (Always a popular choice :lol.

2. Some sort of voice in Afghan politics, seats on the Afghan consul for example...

3. Limited Autonomy or self rule.

4. ...and of course the all powerful motivator: MONEY.

5. Plus remember that the Taliban and the US do share one common enemy: Opium. Al Qaeda deals in Opium to fund terrorism, but the Taliban had banned it before 9/11.

Essentially what Obama is trying to do is convince the Taliban that its much more in their interest to be America Friend then her enemy. While remaining al-Qaeda friend is not in their interest. Remember Mullah Omar and Bin laden are pals, but their have been some clashes (some even violent) between al Qaeda and the Taliban. Remember most of al-qaeda is not Afghan. They are as much as wanted foreigners as we are.

 

[Partisan]

History has proved, time and again that the Afghans are very independent - no foreign power has ever managed to hold their land for more than a coupe of years and not without heavy cost.

Interesting to note that whilst NATO forces are losing the confidence of the populace, the Taliban are still unpopular - so there has to be some room for manouevre.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7879154.stm

 

[03USMC]

I would think the Obama Administration would be well aware of this scenario which is why these demands would never be accepted. But I could think of a few ideas that the more moderate Taliban might be willing to accept including:

1. They can sleep at night without fear of a JDAM coming to pay them visit them. (Always a popular choice :lol.

2. Some sort of voice in Afghan politics, seats on the Afghan consul for example...

3. Limited Autonomy or self rule.

4. ...and of course the all powerful motivator: MONEY.

5. Plus remember that the Taliban and the US do share one common enemy: Opium. Al Qaeda deals in Opium to fund terrorism, but the Taliban had banned it before 9/11.

Essentially what Obama is trying to do is convince the Taliban that its much more in their interest to be America Friend then her enemy. While remaining al-Qaeda friend is not in their interest. Remember Mullah Omar and Bin laden are pals, but their have been some clashes (some even violent) between al Qaeda and the Taliban. Remember most of al-qaeda is not Afghan. They are as much as wanted foreigners as we are.

1. Yeah it's popular for you and me to avoid death if possible. But the Taliban are at their core Jihadist. They die it's a martyrdom in defense of Islam.

2. Limited until they take over. Or until tribal issues tear apart the pact. At it's base Afghanistan is a tribal/clanish culture.

3. They pretty much have that already. No one ever really governs Afghanistan, not even Afghani's. It breaks down to tribes and clans.

4. I'm against giving aid to groups that have a rifle on one hand while taking money with the other, but it's a necessary evil I suppose. I'd still hate to know what they'd use it for.

5. Maybe the only thing we agree with the Taliban on.

It can be tried. But the devil is gonna be in the details. I just think that the plan maybe ignoring some basic truths about the Taliban.