Marinerhodes
Active member
This is really a moot point. President Bush was elected. Why argue over what was right and wrong when there are no further courses of action that can be taken? We all know each others points of view by now.
It's the news media now .....
Marinerhodes
Active member
PJ24 said:
Facts, rhetoric, opinions, rants, raves, logic, law, legalities, and all manner of other things we have heard.
Marinerhodes
Active member
PJ24 said:
I thought that went without saying.:read:
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda ...
It astounds me ... the number of people that believe that GW 'won' his first election and they ALWAYS point out the counts that were made AFTER the ballots had been pawed, juggled, smacked, bounced, turned upside down, jossled, jiggled and generally handled in various non-gentle ways, and then they say "the counts (long after vote count was stopped), showed that Bush would have won anyway" ...
I SAY ... WE WILL NEVER KNOW HOW THE VOTE WOULD HAVE COME OUT IF THE RECOUNT COULD HAVE BEEN COMPLETED THE VERY FIRST TIME BY THE FLORIDIAN ELECTION OFFICIALS ...
ALL OF YOUR WOULDA, COULDA, SHOULDA DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACTS - YOU CAN NOT TURN BACK THE CLOCK AND UNDO ANY CHANGES CAUSED BY ALL OF THE BALLOT HANDLING.
Talk about: logic, illogic, facts, rhetoric, opinions, rants, raves, law, legalities, and all manner of other things we have heard. This above is the one that ALWAYS gets me. WE WILL NEVER REALLY KNOW.
It astounds me ... the number of people that believe that GW 'won' his first election and they ALWAYS point out the counts that were made AFTER the ballots had been pawed, juggled, smacked, bounced, turned upside down, jossled, jiggled and generally handled in various non-gentle ways, and then they say "the counts (long after vote count was stopped), showed that Bush would have won anyway" ...
I SAY ... WE WILL NEVER KNOW HOW THE VOTE WOULD HAVE COME OUT IF THE RECOUNT COULD HAVE BEEN COMPLETED THE VERY FIRST TIME BY THE FLORIDIAN ELECTION OFFICIALS ...
ALL OF YOUR WOULDA, COULDA, SHOULDA DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACTS - YOU CAN NOT TURN BACK THE CLOCK AND UNDO ANY CHANGES CAUSED BY ALL OF THE BALLOT HANDLING.
Talk about: logic, illogic, facts, rhetoric, opinions, rants, raves, law, legalities, and all manner of other things we have heard. This above is the one that ALWAYS gets me. WE WILL NEVER REALLY KNOW.
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Marinerhodes
Active member
Chief Bones said:
But wasn't it how the recounts were counted that was called into question? (e.g. dimples count or not, chad counts or not, complete punches count or not, so on and so forth.) Not that an actual recount was being done or wanted to be done? You had four different ways they wanted to recount it. That was what was called into question.
The butterfly and caterpillar ballots
Use of Palm Beach County standard
Inclusion of overvotes
And my Favorite: Gore's four-county strategy
Chief Bones said:
You said a mouthful there Chief. If, And, Or, Neither, Nor, does not change the fact that the POTUS is George W Bush Jr.
Chief Bones said:
So why worry so much about it?
But since we are worrying so much about it. . .
Here is a timeline I dug up in the CNN archives. Seems pretty unbiased to me but I am not well versed on the topic. It seems to me that in relation to the last link/excerpt all the Gore campaign did was hurt itself with delaying tactics. http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/12/13/got.here/index.html
Then once you are done reading that, read this article and the "Reverend" Jesse Jackson's take. http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/12/13/african.americans/index.html
Here is an excerpt I find amusing in relation to this discussion (same article as the above):
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/12/13/african.americans/index.html
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Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
I wasn't worrying about the fact that GW is now the pres ... all I said is that we will never really know how the vote would have gone the first time around ... POTUS was named by the Electoral College (after the Supremes sang along party lines) and we are stuck with King George. (I realize we can't undo this ... even IF we would like to).Marinerhodes said:
Marinerhodes
Active member
Sorry Chief, I decided to do some editing and toss in some links and the like. Please comment on the additions if you like.
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
Don't be manure stupid now ...
I removed the rest of the post myself ...
Sorry for the Mod Edit above ... I got carried away a little bit ... it happens to all of us once in awhile ...Chief Bones said:
I removed the rest of the post myself ...
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PJ24
Active member
Chief Bones said:
No, you didn't specifically say that.
But you did say:
Which to me, implies you don't recognize that the EC is the election authority. If the EC choose Bush (and it did), it is impossible to say he wasn't elected without refusing to recognize them and their purpose.
But, oh well.
Rob Henderson
Banned
Right, but the popular vote influences the Electoral College(most of the time)
FULLMETALJACKET
MilForum Bad Apple
TRUE.
This might be off subject for this page but i saw some stuff about it on page 1. I would just like to say that, as 17 year old Male growing up in 75% Republican town, and a future Marine, That I support and watch every Bush speech that he makes. The Media is turning this into another Vietnam. My MSGT read a letter to my class about a week ago that was written in 2005 by a Guy in the ARNG over in Iraq, he spoke of just the issue of the Media. and he spoke of the good that has come from this war.
*Thousands of Children have been updated on Shots.
*Sewage sytems have been put into all the major cities.
*Thousands of people have clean water now for the first time.
*The School Attendence rate has gone up from 20% to 80%.
*Females are able to go to school for the first time.
*Elections have been held.
*For the first time in 30 years there are textbooks in the schools that dont even mention Saddam.
These are just a few things he mentioned. These are the things the media doesnt tell you. These are the things you should be hearing because the truth is, you dont watch the news to hear about how the people have clean water, that doesnt get your attention. 9 soldiers killed,Ied kills 4 soldiers, helicopter crashes kills the whole crew. This is what makes headlines and keeps the media going.
As i mentioned before about the town i live in, Ocala, FL. Ive watched in a short time of 3 months the number of protestors grow there were 3 people holding "out of Iraq" signs a few months ago. yesterday i see a crowd 20 + people. and one Vet standing about 40 feet in front of them down the road holding a support our troops sign. Thats the person i respect, because he's been there, he knows war, he doesnt watch it on tv, people sit here and complain, they have that freedom because of war, everything we have in this life is earned in blood. I just want them to go home, so that when the common soldier comes home he can still feel like he made a difference and still hold some dignity for himself. Thank you to all who have taken time to read this.
N. McAlister
PJ24
Active member
FULLMETALJACKET said:
Some of this is true, some is a little misrepresented/inflated.
Females were able to attend school in Iraq prior to the invasion.
School attendence is right now, about 65% (I think that was the last UNICEF number), so it's dropped a little (73%). Which is to be expected given the political climate some areas are in. However, teacher salaries have been raised, and new materials have been sent, so while there is a slight decline, those attending are getting a better education, and specific areas are increasing attendance rates.
All of the text books I've seen do mention Hussein (he is a part of Iraqi history, after all), but not as the ultimate prime higher being like before.
As for sewage systems, that runs hot and cold. They dump a lot of their sewage into the rivers, and a lot ends up in the streets as well due to faulty pumps/sepitcs. Most of the plants are being refurbished, new pumps put in etc, so it is getting better, but these things take time. Esp since the sewage system there was so bad.
As for clean water, that's true. Electricity is also getting better, it is above pre-war levels now. Which is a feat considering the insurgents like to attack electrical sources.
Health care is getting better too, though still has room for improvement. 95% of kids under five have been vaccinated for polio.
So, there are positives to Iraq and you don't even need propaganda to support them.
Marinerhodes
Active member
I find it remarkable that the POTUS (and all applicable offices) do not "toot their own horn" and point out all the positives in view of all the negatives. I see the information released (I guess) but I don't see the political parties jumping in and saying "look at what we did, this is what makes up for all the rest".
That does not seem to me like a person that is trying to direct your attention away from something that may be going wrong.
That does not seem to me like a person that is trying to direct your attention away from something that may be going wrong.
CABAL
Active member
Media and News Agencies consists of several people who have personal values and perspectives which they see as right.
We have those who lean to the far right and those who lean to the far left. Since when did the news media in America become a hotspot for far right and left wing propaganda spewing hateful words against George W. Bush and Dick Cheney? This so-called "right to freedom of press" have seriously gotten out of hand and have entered into a realm of hateful defamation.
There are reporters who write articles and transcripts without supporting their thesis with concrete and credible evidence. There are also reporters using misleading and strong words driving the American people to fear and contempt. They welcome unwarranted influences of personal values and ideals without using neutrality regardless if the evidence and statistics goes against their beliefs.
As the US Framers and James Madison have emphasized that People who often behave in "passion" without using "reasoning" are likely to be the most dangerous.
We have those who lean to the far right and those who lean to the far left. Since when did the news media in America become a hotspot for far right and left wing propaganda spewing hateful words against George W. Bush and Dick Cheney? This so-called "right to freedom of press" have seriously gotten out of hand and have entered into a realm of hateful defamation.
There are reporters who write articles and transcripts without supporting their thesis with concrete and credible evidence. There are also reporters using misleading and strong words driving the American people to fear and contempt. They welcome unwarranted influences of personal values and ideals without using neutrality regardless if the evidence and statistics goes against their beliefs.
As the US Framers and James Madison have emphasized that People who often behave in "passion" without using "reasoning" are likely to be the most dangerous.
Rob Henderson
Banned
I agree. I would be doing everything I could to put out the media "fires" that they always inevitably create...But bad news sells...Good news gets boring quick...thats the way the news and other media mediums will always operate.Marinerhodes said:
Marinerhodes said:
Sure doesn't.
Pop-a-squat
Active member
CABAL said:
CABAL, that is probably right on the money. I'm getting tired of seeing nothing but carnage and sensationalized stories being reported, myself. The media in general needs to gets its act together, in my opinion.