Israel rightfully own the West Bank .

[senojekips]

An Arab war of aggression in 1967? I don't suppose that may have been an attempt by them to get back their own land that they had been driven off in 1948, when the Israelis forced the majority of landholders in the land claimed as Israel by the Zionists terrorising women and children and murdering those who stood their ground?

Your lies and propaganda are 60 years too late and far too transparent, the rest of the world knows the truth of your deliberate treachery, how your country re enacted the worst excesses of the Nazis only a few years before.

If Syria gave half of Israel to the starving Ethiopians and backed them with endless money and military aid, would you not fight to defend the country of your birth?

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

Even your most famous leaders freely admit that Isael has no legitimacy in the eyes of the world. Nor does it deserve it.

I notice also that your rambling diatribe completely disregards the sole question posed as the subject of this debate.

 

[MontyB]

Hmmm!
With a great chance of being nominated as a Israeli version of Joseph Goebbels, then I would still say this:

Make no mistake. The Palestinians are still fighting to destroy Israel. The primary obstacle to a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians is neither Jewish settlements, Palestinian refugees or the issue of future borders. The conflict has nothing to do with orcupation or security fence, but only with Arab reluctance to accept any Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine, however small the part may be.

Only after Israel in 1967struck back an Arab war of aggression on three fronts and took control of Gaza and West Bank, began the Palestinian Arabs (who was now "Palestinians") to claim these areas. But the price - recognition of the Jewish state's right to exist - was too high.

The Oslo process in the 1990s capsized when Arafat in the summer of 2000 rejected a plan that would have given Palestinians Gaza and almost all of the West Bank as a state with East Jerusalem as its capital. The reasion was that they were not prepared to recognize Jewish claim to parts of Jerusalem or would cede the right to flood Israel with the descendants of Palestinian refugees, which would eventually undermine Israel's Jewish identity. If you believe that the "moderate" leadership under Mahmoud Abbas has turned past intransigence you are wrong.

Also in an interview shown on the TV station Al-Jazeera 27th March 2010 Saeb Erekat, Palestinian chief negotiator for both Arafat and Abbas, throws yet more light on the "moderate" Fatah's position on the two state solution. According to Erekat Arafat said to Clinton: "I will not be a traitor. Someone will come and liberate Jerusalem after 10, 50 or 100 years. Jerusalem will not be other than the capital of the Palestinian state, and there's nothing underneath or above the Haram Al-Sharif [the Arabic name for the Temple Mount] except Allah. "(Al-Jazeera, March 27, 2009).

By continuing to refuse to recognize any kind of Jewish connection to what the Jews for a millennia have considered their holiest place, by constantly working against the very core of two-state solution, namely the division of Palestine into both a Jewish and an Arab state , the Palestinian leadership blocks the peaceful solution that the vast majority of Israelis and presumably also the majority of Palestinians crave.

Okay gentleman that was it, now I've said my opinion, so now it is time to get into cover for the incoming artillery fire.

The problem with your argument is that it is one sided, lets be realistic the area has been "holiest" place for Christendom for over a millennium as well but I am pretty certain there would be an outcry if a 10th Crusade rolled through the doors to claim it back, the fact is that that particular bit of dirt has been fought over and claimed by countless nations and empires in the last 4000 years.

Anyway rather than go through the whole repetitive counter argument I will ask just one question, if the roles were reversed what would you do.

Lets say Egypt (lets not get into the whole Canaanite thing) decided to take back its long lost province and in doing so decided that all the Israelis could have a couple of motley unproductive bits of dirt (say the west bank or gaza strip) would you:
A) Say well it was Egyptian land lets just suck it up make the most of our dirt.
B) Fight back?

 

[senojekips]

Israel's steady decline to the status of "Pariah State" around the world, is well described in an article featured in Haaretz, by Tony Judt, the Professor of history at NYU.

"Israel, the country that wouldn't grow up" http://israelblog.com/1147619908/

I particularly likes the analogy, "Israel is like Serbia with nukes"

When Israel breaks international law in the occupied territories, when Israel publicly humiliates the subject populations whose land it has seized – but then responds to its critics with loud cries of “anti-Semitism” – it is in effect saying that these acts are not Israeli acts, they are Jewish acts: The occupation is not an Israeli occupation, it is a Jewish occupation, and if you don’t like these things it is because you don’t like Jews. In many parts of the world this is in danger of becoming a self-fulfilling assertion: Israel’s reckless behavior and insistent identification of all criticism with anti-Semitism is now the leading source of anti-Jewish sentiment in Western Europe and much of Asia.

 

[IDF_5173]

Wow......... Herr Goebbels would be proud of you senojekips!!!

Monty B. I find the criticism against Israel rather one-sided. Where do you get your information from? From the Western medias? Any of you who understand Arabic? Reading Arabic newspapers? Watching Arabic television? Then you would see the hatred being preached against Israel!

I know well the importance which the holy site means to Christianity. As a side note, I can tell I am not a Jew, but belong to the small minority of Christians Israelis.

In Israel, there has long been a solid, democratic majority of two-state solution. But as long as the Arabs require Israeli withdrawal without delivering peace in return, then the process is going nowhere. The first thing that must happen is that the Arab world, including the Palestinian Authority must stop brainwashing its people that there should exist a solution which does not imply Arab recognition of the Jewish state. Either way, Israel lies where it lies. Without such recognition, any Israeli withdrawal will simply be seen as a displacement of the front line in the war against Israel.

I can see things from the other side and the answer to your question is quite logical, it becomes B.

But it is the Palestinians who, by refusing to offer Israel peace, security and recognition and refusing to live up to Resolution 242, thereby blocking a peaceful settlement to the conflict.

 

[senojekips]

Wow......... Herr Goebbels would be proud of you senojekips!!!

Dr Goebbels indeed,.... considering that nearly all of what I quoted was the work of noted Jewish academics and Statesmen,... you talk out of your hat, and I also notice that you have not attempted to provide the smallest evidence that my statements were incorrect. I'm enormously surprised you have not dragged out the old "Anti Semite" defence.

I can also tell you that I AM of Jewish descent but I am an Atheist by choice, so your lack of any kind of morality holds absolutely no surprises for me.

Still you have made no attempt to answer the question posed by the original poster. Denials mean nothing unless you can provide credible evidence to back your propagandist line.

Your "two state solution" is ludicrous and is not a solution for anyone, other than the Israelis. You effectively offer the palestinians the chance to commit cultural suicide or be killed,... either way, they lose their lands, and have the gall to offer this as a solution.

Today only a tiny minority of outsiders see Israelis as victims. The true victims, it is now widely accepted, are the Palestinians. Indeed, Palestinians have now displaced Jews as the emblematic persecuted minority: vulnerable, humiliated and stateless. This unsought distinction does little to advance the Palestinian case any more than it ever helped Jews, but it has redefined Israel forever. It has become commonplace to compare Israel at best to an occupying colonizer, at worst to the South Africa of race laws and Bantustans. In this capacity Israel elicits scant sympathy even when its own citizens suffer: Dead Israelis – like the occasional assassinated white South African in the apartheid era, or British colonists hacked to death by native insurgents – are typically perceived abroad not as the victims of terrorism but as the collateral damage of their own government’s mistaken policies.

 

[IDF_5173]

To the extent that one can even talk about international law, then the UN Security Council Resolution 242, is the legal basis to legitimize Israeli occupation of the West Bank. The Resolution from 1967 created the framework for all subsequent peace initiatives following the motto "land for peace" by requiring the withdrawal of Israel against Arab security guarantees and recognition of Israel. In addition, they will arrange that the final demarcation shall be determined by negotiation. The two countries together with Israel that has been willing to abide by the resolution requirements were Egypt and Jordan.

Do not need much imagination to imagine what would happen if Israel without security guaranties withdrew from the West Bank, located right next to the great city of Jerusalem. The Jewish neighborhoods would obviously be bombed just as they were when Jordan launched its attack on the city in 1967.

 

[senojekips]

You talk about 1967 with total disregard for Israeli treachery, dispossession, beatings harassment and gratuitous murder of women and children prior to that date. It is as if you think that this problem started in 1967???... I'm afraid not, or is that all they teach you in Israeli schools.

If you worry about withdrawing from the West Bank, imagine what will happen when Israel is finally forced by International pressure to recognise the Palestinians as rightful owners of the land as happened in South Africa and to a lesser degree in Australia. Fifteen years ago if you were to suggest that this would happen you would have been laughed at,... today we see the truth of the matter.

You still have not addressed the subject of the thread???....

Israelis Behaving Badly

 

[mmarsh]

Wow......... Herr Goebbels would be proud of you senojekips!!!

Monty B. I find the criticism against Israel rather one-sided. Where do you get your information from? From the Western medias? Any of you who understand Arabic? Reading Arabic newspapers? Watching Arabic television? Then you would see the hatred being preached against Israel!

I know well the importance which the holy site means to Christianity. As a side note, I can tell I am not a Jew, but belong to the small minority of Christians Israelis.

In Israel, there has long been a solid, democratic majority of two-state solution. But as long as the Arabs require Israeli withdrawal without delivering peace in return, then the process is going nowhere. The first thing that must happen is that the Arab world, including the Palestinian Authority must stop brainwashing its people that there should exist a solution which does not imply Arab recognition of the Jewish state. Either way, Israel lies where it lies. Without such recognition, any Israeli withdrawal will simply be seen as a displacement of the front line in the war against Israel.

I can see things from the other side and the answer to your question is quite logical, it becomes B.

But it is the Palestinians who, by refusing to offer Israel peace, security and recognition and refusing to live up to Resolution 242, thereby blocking a peaceful settlement to the conflict.

Sorry but MontyB is right on this, you opinion is extremely one-sided.

You used the term Joseph Goebbels for Senorjekips, let me use another Nazi word you might be familiar with: LEBENSRAUM

LEBENSRAUM (living space) is the act of kicking a native population off their own land using violence and putting your own population in their place. Its what the Germans did to the Poles in 1939 and its exactly what the Israeli Settlers protected by the IDF is doing to the Palestinians on the West Bank. And Worse your lunatic Prime Minister has made it clear that he will continue to further steal Palestinian land by expanding the illegal settlements. I am not surprised you are so familiar with the Nazis, you've done quite well following in their footsteps.

And it will end badly for you. Mark my words. I am an American, and in States (thanks to the internet and the videos Senojekips posted) people are no longer believing the fairy tale that Israel is somehow an innocent victim. Even in America patience amongst the public is running out. Yes Palestinians have killed innocent Israelis, but the Israelis have killed far more innocent Palestinians by about 100 to 1. You remember that last incursion into Gaza? 50 Israelis killed, 1200 Palestinians killed, many of which were kids.

Israel is digging its own grave, because at some point Israel will have no friends, tons of enemies, and some crazy Arab terrorist detonating a Nuke in Downtown Tel Aviv. And the sad truth is when that happens, nobody else will feel sorry for you.

 

[MontyB]

But it is the Palestinians who, by refusing to offer Israel peace, security and recognition and refusing to live up to Resolution 242, thereby blocking a peaceful settlement to the conflict.

Ok but here is the problem a 2 state solution will only work if both states are viable and I seriously doubt that anyone with an ounce of understanding believes that the proposed Palestinian state has any viability at all (half a dozen chunks of unwanted land spread all over the place can not function as a country), it failed with Pakistan (East and West) and will fail here.

I would suggest that most people being offered nothing when they had it all may as well carry on fighting, I also suspect that this is exactly what an element of Israel is banking on because as I have said in the past I do not believe either side is negotiating in good faith here.

 

[Seehund]

I can tell I am not a Jew, but belong to the small minority of Christians Israelis.

Messianic Judaism ?

 

[senojekips]

A short video demonstrating the difference between a Jew and a Zionist.

Thoughts of Eminent Jewish Physicist, Dr. Hajo Meyer

IDF 5173, I suppose that you would also accuse this man of being a supporter of Dr. Goebbels???

And last but not least we have a short video showing the mentality of Zionists that run Israel today. These are the ratbags who claim to the world that Israel is treating Palestinians fairly.

The Zionist Mentality

As for your ludicrous statement

Okay gentleman that was it, now I've said my opinion, so now it is time to get into cover for the incoming artillery fire.

All I can say is that you seriously overestimate yourself, your argument amost self destructs and it needs no more than the breeze of a passing mosquito to show it for what it is,.... very poor quality Zionist propaganda

 

[zraver]

Hmmm!
With a great chance of being nominated as a Israeli version of Joseph Goebbels, then I would still say this:

Make no mistake. The Palestinians are still fighting to destroy Israel.

Wait what- who has the jets, bombs, tanks and multi-billion dollar military? Who is slowly but steadily taking more and more land in illegal mirco-invasions? Who has subdivided the West Bank into over 220 isolated ghettos most smaller than 2 square kilometers? Who gives recent arrivals from all over the world 350-450 liters of water a day, but only gives the natives 50-70 liters? Which [population is suffering 70% malnutrition and chronic ruinous unemployment?

Sorry, but when it comes to destruction israel is in no immedate danger.

The primary obstacle to a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians is neither Jewish settlements, Palestinian refugees or the issue of future borders. The conflict has nothing to do with orcupation or security fence, but only with Arab reluctance to accept any Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine, however small the part may be.

That is incorrect, the Arab Peace Proposal was endorsed by 21 Arab states and the Palestinian Auhtority. The one sticking point relatign to the right of return is not specifically mentioned in the proposal and could likely be swapped for Jewish losses in the Jewish explusion.

Only

after Israel in 1967struck back an Arab war of aggression on three fronts and took control of Gaza and West Bank, began the Palestinian Arabs (who was now "Palestinians") to claim these areas. But the price - recognition of the Jewish state's right to exist - was too high.

The Palestinians were not a party to the 1967 war. The UN Partition plan was never recinded and relevant international treaties prevdent the aquisition of land through agressive war. As such only the UN and the Palestinian people have claim to the West Bank and Gaza.

The Oslo

process in the 1990s capsized when Arafat in the summer of 2000 rejected a plan that would have given Palestinians Gaza and almost all of the West Bank as a state with East Jerusalem as its capital. The reasion was that they were not prepared to recognize Jewish claim to parts of Jerusalem or would cede the right to flood Israel with the descendants of Palestinian refugees, which would eventually undermine Israel's Jewish identity. If you believe that the "moderate" leadership under Mahmoud Abbas has turned past intransigence you are wrong.

The plan was rightly rejected becuase Israel offered nothing of value. Under treaties Israel is party to, there is no isralei right to any land in the West Bank or Gaza (4GC III/49). Likewise Israel is in violation of the, UN Charter, UN Declaration of Human Rights, 4GC and the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights regarding preparing non-governing peoples for self rule and independence. Israel's actions in Gaza and the West Bank also meet the legal (not popular) definition of genocide. Finally Israeli military action often violates the laws and customs of war.

By continuing

to refuse to recognize any kind of Jewish connection to what the Jews for a millennia have considered their holiest place, by constantly working against the very core of two-state solution, namely the division of Palestine into both a Jewish and an Arab state , the Palestinian leadership blocks the peaceful solution that the vast majority of Israelis and presumably also the majority of Palestinians crave.

Utter falsehood, the Arab Peace proposal leaves Israel all of the land it had before June 4, 1967 including Jewish parts of Jerusalem and extends Israel formal peace and formal recognition.

The sticking point to peace is Israel's continued rejection of its legal treaty obligations and intenrational law.

 

[O.W.E.G.]

Acctually the land that Israel claims to own (by no right) is not even 80% safe and the last thing I remember is what happened in gaza by Hamas an in north Palestine (the country's real name

 

[84RFK]

Gentlemen, I have a feeling of doubt wether or not the state of Israel really wants peace.

Historic facts shows us that the state of Israel has never actually gained anything from peace, unless it's a negotiated peace treaty, and so much more through war.

In fact, I'm not really sure that the state of Israel can function as a united entity without being surrounded by enemies, after all the endless state of war since the declearation of the state of Israel has served to bond it's population together for 63 years.
Despite the fact that the Israeli population consists of several different cultures, completely different ethnic groups, and a multitude of different languages, they have none the less managed to pull together in one direction.
And just face it, even though it is a Jewish state, Judaism has several different beliefs about what is the true way of the religion, and not all of these directions are able to speak together, not to mention aggree, on a daily basis.
And then we have the more secular jews...
So the cement binding the bricks of the foundations of Israel isn't so much the religion itself, as the constant threath of hostile neighbours.

That alone would suggest that peace isn't neccessarily the most favoured objective within Israeli politics.

Then we have the fact that any sort of "peace" would have to deal with the Palestine problem....
The Palestine territories today is in a kind of political limbo, and that is dynamite in itself, but the alternative could be worse.
If the Palestine territories should be recognized as an independent state, it would severly limit Israeli influence on their surroundings, ranging from different Islamic terrorist groups infiltrating the Palestine state and launching different kinds of attacks against Israel, to the simple fact that it makes Israeli retaliation against same terrorist groups a bit more complicated.

If the Palestine territories should be kept under som formal Israeli jurisdiction however, it would mean that Israel would have to assume some formal responsibility for it's citizens...maybe even accept them as Israeli citizens in the end.
That off course would be unthinkable, unacceptable, and could pose a serious threath to the democratic functions in Israel.
The alternative on the other hand would lead to a de facto "Apartheid-state" in every understanding of the word.

On that background, it seems like the best solution to keep the negotiations dragging along forever.

And the answer to this thread is simply, even if Israel did own the West-Bank, they will not assume the ownership of it.

 

[GHR]

The problem Israel

Is there a solution to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians? Not in Israel, as long as Zionism is the national ideology.

An important part of Israel's rhetoric is to maintain the myth that "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East." It is a premise which is helping to legitimize the aid to Israel and the state's treatment of Palestinians. The premise is supported by the popular idea of "clash of civilizations" that Western democracies are put under pressure by the (undemocratic) Muslim world and Israel here represents a democratic defense of the West. I would argue that the Western world is subject to a fraud and that the conflict can not be solved as long as Israel defines itself as "Jewish and democratic.

Israel operates basically undemocratic, exclusionary and expansionist to the large minority of non-Jews. The whole "land of Israel" must be fought at the expense of the Palestinian population both within Israel and the OccupiedTerritories. Code word: Jewishness and ethnic cleansing. Through governmental actions the Palestinian population is discriminated and subjected to racist abuse. They often live in a kind of ghettos in parts of what was the original Palestine, has Israeli citizenship and passport, but live as second class citizens. Together with Israel's oppressive 'campaign in the occupied territories, you will find a logical explanation for what is blocking a peaceful settlement to the conflict: Israel doesn’t want it.

The explanation is that the Israeli ethnocracy form of statehood, an ethno-religiously - not liberal - democracy not based on equality and equal rights for all its citizens. This particular form of democracy is undemocratic (decent democrats can surely agree that the concept of democracy includes all residents in a state?) and builds on the notion of the ideal Zionist, democratic state. It is 100 per cent. Jewish, exclusively inhabited by people with the same "blood and religion." Israel will never be able to include the Palestinians in this construction, since they don’t have the same "blood and religion." They are basically a foreign identity in the state, which from this perspective ideally includes all of Palestine - "Eretz Israel".

The Zionist forces in power in Israel today (religious forces rather than secular forces) are working on two longer-term goal of ethnic cleansing against the Palestinian people - both within Israel's borders and as far as possible in the West Bank. The goal is the establishment of a pure Jewish Eretz Israel (Land of Israel). In Israel, the Palestinians have Israeli citizenship and formal democratic rights. They have, for example, representatives in the Knesset. But they are being subjected to systematic persecution. They are not integrated or even assimilated, because they are not Jews.

Israel, in the short and longer term, has a demographic problem: a higher birthrate among Palestinians. How can they maintain the notion of a "Jewish democracy", whose majority is composed of non-Jews? It is something of an uncomfortable squeeze - also in relation to their surroundings. A Palestinian majority in Israel would certainly democratically manage to remove the non-democratic, ethnocractic elements in Israeli law and turn the country into a democracy for all.

Maybe, there earlier was from Israel, a willingness to put an end to the conflict, but today there are none. The solution must therefore come from outside. But a satisfactory solution, I believe, can only exist if Israel cancels Zionism as the national ideology - or are compelled to do so. A Zionist state can no more commit to peace with the Palestinians, as the South African apartheid regime could make peace with the native black population. But South Africa was finally forced to do so - by outside pressure, so then maybe..........!

 

[Korean Seaboy]

I agree with Israel's right to exist, but not its right to occupy Gaza, the West Bank, and its rights to wage war against its neighbors, nor its rights to settle on other countries' land

 

[senojekips]

---snip---

Maybe, there earlier was from Israel, a willingness to put an end to the conflict, but today there are none. The solution must therefore come from outside. But a satisfactory solution, I believe, can only exist if Israel cancels Zionism as the national ideology - or are compelled to do so. A Zionist state can no more commit to peace with the Palestinians, as the South African apartheid regime could make peace with the native black population. But South Africa was finally forced to do so - by outside pressure, so then maybe..........!

There is little doubt that Israel has always wanted an end to the conflict with the Palestinians,... but only if the Palestinians forego all claims to their own land.

 

[GHR]

There is little doubt that Israel has always wanted an end to the conflict with the Palestinians,... but only if the Palestinians forego all claims to their own land.

Isn't there a word for it…? Could it be “Lebensraum” ...?

 

[Prapor]

I'm honestly divided as far as this conflict goes... I have Muslim friends, and even in my family. Many people I know sympathize with the Palestinians. At the same time, I also know how wrong terrorism is and how horrible, having grown up in North Caucasus.

I think the Palestinians have a right cause... But in a way, Israel does too. Both feel they are defending their land, their home. As to who is right, who knows? Where is the evidence for Israel's right to that land? In the Bible, which is in itself a piece of religious fiction. But then, that is true for the Palestinians too.

:9mm:
:sniper:

:hide:

:biggun:
​

:2guns:
:m16shoot:

 

[senojekips]

Isn't there a word for it…? Could it be “Lebensraum” ...?

If only you knew how many times I have commented YouTube vids with: "Israel = Zionist Lebensraum"

Where is the evidence for Israel's right to that land? In the Bible, which is in itself a piece of religious fiction. But then, that is true for the Palestinians too.

But the Palestinians don't use a religious fiction to claim ownership of the land, their claim lies in the fact that their ancestors have lived there, virtually since man first moved into the area, whereas the Jews for the most part have lived in Europe for the last 1200 years, and feel they have the right to just push the owners out and occupy the land on the basis of some mumbo jumbo that their priests made up a couple of thousand years ago.

I have often asked, "What would happen if I were to go the London and just occupy the property owned by my ancestors, beating harrassing and murdering anyone who resisted"? I would have my @rse handed to me on a plate.