Iraqi shoe thrower couldnt stand Bush's Icy Smile

AB, you're never going to convince some people that GWB did what had to be done. He took a stand and stuck to his convictions. All that was accomplished was to provide the Iraquis the freedom to vote, women to go to school, a democratic transformation of the Iraqi government, providing humanitarian assistance, etc., etc., etc..
The U.S. and its allies stepped up to help the people of Iraq get out from under the oppression of Hussein's regime. All this would never have happend had Hussein cooperated with the mandated UN inspections.
There's no sense in rehashing all of this any further. It's not going to change the minds of the haters.
As far as Kerry goes, it wasn't Cheney that did him in it was the baggage he carried from his anti-Vietnam, anti-military congressional self promoting "testimony" before Senate Foreign Relations Committee that he foisted on the general public.
We know, we were there. In fact, the day he was testifying, I was fighting in Vietnam with many of the finest and most honorable fighting men I have ever had the privilege to serve with shoulder to shoulder and face to face with the enemy. So much for Mr. Kerry's opinion. We didn't need anyone to tell us what he is all about. We remember quite well thank you. It was not propaganda, it was John Kerry. We didn't vote against him out of fear, we voted against him out of disgust at the thought of him in the White House.
 
But what about the rest of those countries that need "liberating"? All those third world, poor, desolate countries that are crying out for help and we do nothing... Are we going to help them out too? Because until we do, it looks like an attack on an oil field to the world...
 
I think some people are way too preoccupied with what "the rest of the world" thinks. I'm not among them. I prefer to think for myself.
 
DTop said:
I think some people are way too preoccupied with what "the rest of the world" thinks
Click to expand...


...And some people in the US are not concerned enough. These same people are the ones in shock when things like terrorist attacks happens as if its some great surprise. Its simple really, if you take a s*** in someone's else's backyard, you can expect that someday they'll come into your backyard and return the favor.

For example, I think the US lack of interest for the past 3 decades to what goes on in the Middle East (the part that DOESN'T include Israel) played a major part in the events that lead up to 9/11.

AB_Shorts_Momma

You are correct, but WHY did they think Bush was the better choice? It certainly wasnt based on his record, Nobody thought Bush had done a spectacular job during his first term. People choose Bush because they honestly thought that Kerry was too weak and cowardly, that he lack the strength of Bush to defeat Terrorism. As I already showed you, this was the angle the GOP played. Dont take my (or anyone else's) word for it, check the 2004 stump speeches on youtube. They dont even make much attempt to hide it.

The GOP message was "Kerry is weak and you'll be a victim of terrorism if you vote for him, Only Bush and the GOP can protect you". That is fear-mongering, there is no other term for it. It was the only card Bush could play (his record was absymal) and to his credit he played the fear card well.
 
Last edited:
AB_Shorts_Momma said:
My belief is that he won because the population thought that he was a better choice, not from fear!
Click to expand...
It was similar to the last election actually, very effective. "He's bad. I'm not him."
DTop said:
AB, you're never going to convince some people that GWB did what had to be done. He took a stand and stuck to his convictions. All that was accomplished was to provide the Iraquis the freedom to vote, women to go to school, a democratic transformation of the Iraqi government, providing humanitarian assistance, etc., etc., etc..
The U.S. and its allies stepped up to help the people of Iraq get out from under the oppression of Hussein's regime. All this would never have happend had Hussein cooperated with the mandated UN inspections.
There's no sense in rehashing all of this any further. It's not going to change the minds of the haters.
As far as Kerry goes, it wasn't Cheney that did him in it was the baggage he carried from his anti-Vietnam, anti-military congressional self promoting "testimony" before Senate Foreign Relations Committee that he foisted on the general public.
We know, we were there. In fact, the day he was testifying, I was fighting in Vietnam with many of the finest and most honorable fighting men I have ever had the privilege to serve with shoulder to shoulder and face to face with the enemy. So much for Mr. Kerry's opinion. We didn't need anyone to tell us what he is all about. We remember quite well thank you. It was not propaganda, it was John Kerry. We didn't vote against him out of fear, we voted against him out of disgust at the thought of him in the White House.
Click to expand...
My view? Kerry was IN Vietnam. Bush was busy defending Texas from his cushy National Guard spot. Kerry got a Purple Heart. Bush got a mysterious letter. I'd rather have the guy who did something and didn't like it than someone who loves something they've never done.

And by the way, had WE listened to the UN the war would not have started! The invasion was not supported by the UN. We ignored the UN to invade Iraq for ignoring the UN.
Rob Henderson said:
But what about the rest of those countries that need "liberating"? All those third world, poor, desolate countries that are crying out for help and we do nothing... Are we going to help them out too? Because until we do, it looks like an attack on an oil field to the world...
Click to expand...
Agree.
DTop said:
I think some people are way too preoccupied with what "the rest of the world" thinks. I'm not among them. I prefer to think for myself.
Click to expand...
Isolationism still has strongolds apparently.

If we want the "good guy leaders of democracy" image that the Bush Administration idolized it certainly helps to have foreign supoort!
 
AB_Shorts_Momma said:
An atomophere of fear where people wet themselves??? Adolph Hitler??!!

I can't believe we're actually talking about the same person. I'll agree to disagree, because I don't believe we are going to find common ground on THAT one at all.
Click to expand...

Not that far fetched IIRC, here something I wrote on a mil list on the day the war started, 19 March 2003 (and somehow it still - or with distance even more - makes sense today, 6 yrs later):

For the last decade we have repeatedly been reminded of the barbarous precedents of Munich and the cowardice of the western states towards Hitler as an example for what we could not accept by Saddam Hussein.

It is certain, though, that any similarity between Germany of 1938 and Iraq of 2003 are pure coincidence IMHO:

- The Hitler regime counted with a more than powerful army.
- It was backed by the top industry that made good profits in various fields, not the least of which was the production of weapons.
- The "Führer", who had gotten to power through regular elections was convinced of the superiority of his state and his social model and did not hide his intention to control and direct the ways of the world.
- His power was so obvious, and the arrogance and the fervor of his citizens so manifest that he effectively intimidated the leaders of the majority of the Western Nations: They allowed him to bend and leave the International Law where and when he liked (Chamberlain), partially because they were backing his views towards Communism which he accused of terroistic acts (remember the case of the "Reichstag" incinary?).

What has this in common with the reality with respet to Saddam Hussein?

The Iraqui dictator, whose forces were not even able to win against the Iranis - and this despite logistical backup by the US - cannot even think about attacking anyone at the moment. He has a people close to dying from hunger and totally demoralized and half of his territory is controled by foreing powers from the air. As it is, for month now he saw himself forced to accept biggest humiliations, having to allow inspections even under the carpets of his own homes.

To compare this guy with Hitler and what he stood for is simply ridiculous.

But, hold your horses and lets not yet finish the act of comparing into history so rapidly:

Is there someone in the world of today

- who can count on a more than powerful army,
- who is backed by top industry, especially by industry in the field of weapons production,
- who has gotten to power through reguilar elections,
- who believes in the superiority of his state and his social model,
- who does not doubt in manifestating his intention to control and direct the ways of the world,
- whos arrogance does not seem to know limits and
- who bends and leaves the International Law as he likes, without Western Nations really opposing him?

Dictator comes from dictate.

Is there someone at the moment who dictates at the world what it has to do, who does not feel he is under the obligations of any law, being free to do what he likes?

If there is no name coming up to you straight away, well, start taking a look around you...
Click to expand...

Rattler
 
DTop said:
I think some people are way too preoccupied with what "the rest of the world" thinks. I'm not among them. I prefer to think for myself.
Click to expand...
So 4 billion other people's opinions telling you the same thing shouldn't tell you to take a step back and maybe re-evaluate your opinion of the situation? I'm not saying blindly follow some other people... But.... You could take their opinions into account.
 
You know I have really tried to avoid this thread but it appears to be one of the few active ones at the moment so here goes.

1. Bush was re-elected because:
a) John Kerry had the personality of a turnip, no matter how intelligent or even right a person may be if the only reaction you engender in people is the desire to sleep you wont win an election.

b) His campaign was terrible, this can be clearly shown in the how it let the "controversy" over 1 medal over shadow all of the others and let a man who's military experience consisted of getting drunk in a base bar somewhere and doing all he could to avoid active service appear the better "soldier".

2. The comparisons between Hitler and Bush are completely ridiculous because you can draw comparisons between anyone and Hitler besides as well all know though Godwin's law the first person to invoke Hitler in an online argument automatically loses.

3. Bush is gone, fill in the hole, do a little jig and move on, let history write his epitaph (good or bad), while it is wise to learn from the past it is wrong to live in it when the conditions we are facing now require progress.
 
Last edited:
Rob Henderson said:
So 4 billion other people's opinions telling you the same thing shouldn't tell you to take a step back and maybe re-evaluate your opinion of the situation? I'm not saying blindly follow some other people... But.... You could take their opinions into account.
Click to expand...
As I said I form my own opinions and don't require others to tell me what they should be or what I should do. 4 billion other people, indeed! That statement is ridiculous.
 
The only ridiculous thing is the fact that the rest of the world saw Bush for what he was, and we were too blinded by the terrorist attack to see what they saw. Hopefully, next go around, Americans won't give the President a second chance to "finish the job" unless the job should have been started in the first place...


Besides, it's not too far-fetched... World's opinion of Bush was nearly (if not THE lowest) the lowest of any President before him... That many people can't be wrong...
 
Rob Henderson said:
The only ridiculous thing is the fact that the rest of the world saw Bush for what he was, and we were too blinded by the terrorist attack to see what they saw. Hopefully, next go around, Americans won't give the President a second chance to "finish the job" unless the job should have been started in the first place...


Besides, it's not too far-fetched... World's opinion of Bush was nearly (if not THE lowest) the lowest of any President before him... That many people can't be wrong...
Click to expand...
No, that wasn't the ridiculous thing. Phrases like "the rest of the world" and "we were too blinded by the terrorist attack" are ridiculous.
I don't know about the next pres. but the current one has yet to be tested in foreign matters of any real significance. I'm sure he will be and I can only hope he does what's in the best interest of America. That's his job, his only job.
 
You just completely contradicted yourself, Top... How can going to war with other countries be in the best interest of America? How is losing thousands of Americans lives in our own best interest?


We WERE blinded by the terrorist attack... 9/11 was one of the most famous points of American unity. We all voted Bush another term because he went to war against those who attacked us. We were pissed off and he was the one doing stuff about it. Instead of taking time to think about the (global) repercussions of a war (with the wrong country, mind you).
 
Really? You have to ask how going to war could be in our best interest? You're being irrational. You see, I and many other have already been to war in the best interest of this country and all my comrades that gave their lives did so in the best interest of the United States of America. So ya, I never contradicted myself. Either you don't know what you're talking about or you just read whatever you wanted into someone's post again and drew whatever imaginary connotations your mind conjured up. Go ahead bury your head in the sand and pretend to live in a world that never requires a violent response to aggression. I don't care. I'll stay in the real world with all it's bad and good, thank you.
 
I'm confused... I didn't think we found Osama Bin Laden, orchestrator of the 9/11 attacks, and reason we wanted to go to war in the first place, in Iraq... Please tell me I'm wrong. Please tell me we went to war with the right people for the right reasons. Because until he's found in the hole next to Sadaam, we had no reason to go into Iraq (minus spreading democracy, which I'm not bashing.) But when you say a war for America's best interests, we need to be going after the right guys... Give me another reason the Iraq War is in "America's best interests".....


EDIT: I was being specific to THIS war as to how it could be in America's best interests. I'm sorry... I should have clarified.
 
Last edited:
DTOP,

I'm gonna shoot your words back to you... "you're never going to convince some people"

I've kept quiet because you are articulating a lot what I've been thinking. Thanks! :bravo:
 
AB, I know I'm not going to convince anyone who's already made up their mind anymore than they're going to change mine. It is what it is.
Henderson, you're right your post lead me to believe you were speaking in broader terms than you apparently intended. All that aside, I'm not going to play Monday morning QB about Iraq. I am thoroughly convinced that the Iraqis are better of without Hussein and that a lot of good things are happening there now and once the "insurgents" leave, things will get even better.
I do hope that Afghanistan turns out not to be a bigger bite than Obama can chew. I'd hate to see an Afghani throwing a shoe (or whatever they do there to insult people) at him in a few years.
 
DTop said:
AB, I know I'm not going to convince anyone who's already made up their mind anymore than they're going to change mine. It is what it is.
Henderson, you're right your post lead me to believe you were speaking in broader terms than you apparently intended. All that aside, I'm not going to play Monday morning QB about Iraq. I am thoroughly convinced that the Iraqis are better of without Hussein and that a lot of good things are happening there now and once the "insurgents" leave, things will get even better.
I do hope that Afghanistan turns out not to be a bigger bite than Obama can chew. I'd hate to see an Afghani throwing a shoe (or whatever they do there to insult people) at him in a few years.
Click to expand...
I agree with that. I never said they weren't better off without him (I believe they are as well) I just didn't see the reason for invading Iraq... I got Afghanistan... I'm all for that, and Pakistan too, but the UN was AGAINST the invasion of Iraq... And look what's happened... They were basically right.
 
Rob Henderson said:
I agree with that. I never said they weren't better off without him (I believe they are as well) I just didn't see the reason for invading Iraq... I got Afghanistan... I'm all for that, and Pakistan too, but the UN was AGAINST the invasion of Iraq... And look what's happened... They were basically right.
Click to expand...

The world is a lot better off with out Saddam. Not just the US intelligence agency thought he had weapons, capabilities, and the willingness to use them most all countries did. Even Saddam himself thought he had WMD (his underlings would lie to him to avoid death).

We invaded Iraq to finish what we started in '92 and should have finished.

Regardless I just found some tongue and cheek humor in the fact that this man did what he did because he now can and no one in the news media pointed that out.

Another note about some of the previous comments. If you think the only places the US Military is in the world is the "sandbox" you need to do some serious research. The US Military is in just about every country in the world in various forms from humanitarian aide, building schools, cleaning water, assisting in the training of military/police units, etc.

Just Google it you will find schools built, aide to all those third world countries you speak of, and more just in 2008 alone.

Some links
Liberia aide
http://www.africom.mil/getarticle.asp?art=1699

Hell they even get turned away trying to give aide
http://www.welt.de/english-news/art...mar_area_after_failing_to_get_OK_to_help.html
Another
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/04/AR2008060400978.html

Aide to Georgia
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4602501.ece

School built in the Philippines
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=37669

It goes on and on and on and on....
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top