Interfax says the ship had 30 T-72

[03USMC]

"
You still haven't substantiated your claim or statement. I want facts, links, and backup. I know of the Somali situation better than you, and I am very familiar with the whole American-Ethiopian backed regime vs. Islamic Courts situation. If you can't substantiate your claims please don't state them. The UN this, the UN that mumbo jumbo claims you are making won't stand the test of intellect. The statement you have just made I have already disproved and shredded it in my previous arguments, so please if you are going to argue with me with something I know much about than you please have facts and your ammo ready.

Come on like I made that crap up.

Ya know, I don't know how to make it any clearer for you. Those supporters of the ICU were published in a United Nations report on the ICU. You know that multinational you want to work for. So I would suggest you look into that, try googling UN-Somalia-ICU, it pops right up and you can read to your little hearts content.

I don't have a great love for the Marvin Milque Toast stance of the UN on much of anything, however if those wienies are saying that ICU was supported by a terror organization and several terror sponsering states I'm gonna believe it. The simple fact of the matter is the UN doesn't have the man gear to publish that if it isn't true or if they don't have a pretty solid source.

Further just because you say ICU is a benveolent, kind and caring organization doesn't sway me. You are way to adement about protecting their image.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then theirs a damn fine chance it is a duck.

 

[UnitedSomalia]

"Come on like I made that crap up.

Ya know, I don't know how to make it any clearer for you. Those supporters of the ICU were published in a United Nations report on the ICU. You know that multinational you want to work for. So I would suggest you look into that, try googling UN-Somalia-ICU, it pops right up and you can read to your little hearts content.

I don't have a great love for the Marvin Milque Toast stance of the UN on much of anything, however if those wienies are saying that ICU was supported by a terror organization and several terror sponsering states I'm gonna believe it. The simple fact of the matter is the UN doesn't have the man gear to publish that if it isn't true or if they don't have a pretty solid source.

Further just because you say ICU is a benveolent, kind and caring organization doesn't sway me. You are way to adement about protecting their image.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then theirs a damn fine chance it is a duck."

Their is no Hezbollah, Iranian or Syrian connection with ICU, you can google it or research it as much as you want, don't misinform the members here in your attempt to substantiate your unfounded claims that they are terrorists. The UN never stated that ICU had connections with those nations and Hezbollah, the UN themselves were the ones meeting with the ICU when they ruled Somalia. Italy, Djibouti, Eritrea, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and such did have diplomatic ties with the ICU and meet with them plenty of times but not Iran, Syria and Hezbollah. Italy, UN, Arab league, AU all sent diplomats to Mogadishu to meet with the ICU in during the peace process. I don't defend the ICU image, I just hate when someone who doesn't know the real facts get things misconstruded, accuse and distort the truth to fit their agenda to misinform members in the forum. What terrorism acts did the ICU ever commit? NONE.

The ICU may not be the best form of government, but one must give credit where its due, they were the only ones to stabilize Somalia since 1991 that is undeniable, since you don't like the ICU, how do you suggest we stabilize Somalia? By bringing back the warlords and pirates the way the Ethiopian-American intervention did? The ICU have been the only ones who proved able to stabilize Somalia without a military dictatorship like the late General Siad Barre, all other attempts have failed. So why not let them stabilize Somalia since their are no other options.

 

[MontyB]

Their is no Hezbollah, Iranian or Syrian connection with ICU, you can google it or research it as much as you want, don't misinform the members here in your attempt to substantiate your unfounded claims that they are terrorists. The UN never stated that ICU had connections with those nations and Hezbollah, the UN themselves were the ones meeting with the ICU when they ruled Somalia. Italy, Djibouti, Eritrea, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and such did have diplomatic ties with the ICU and meet with them plenty of times but not Iran, Syria and Hezbollah. Italy, UN, Arab league, AU all sent diplomats to Mogadishu to meet with the ICU in during the peace process. I don't defend the ICU image, I just hate when someone who doesn't know the real facts get things misconstruded, accuse and distort the truth to fit their agenda to misinform members in the forum. What terrorism acts did the ICU ever commit? NONE.

The ICU may not be the best form of government, but one must give credit where its due, they were the only ones to stabilize Somalia since 1991 that is undeniable, since you don't like the ICU, how do you suggest we stabilize Somalia? By bringing back the warlords and pirates the way the Ethiopian-American intervention did? The ICU have been the only ones who proved able to stabilize Somalia without a military dictatorship like the late General Siad Barre, all other attempts have failed. So why not let them stabilize Somalia since their are no other options.

As much as I would like to stay out of this because it just seems to get messier and messier by the post, I have tracked down this which may support your argument although it will depend on the credibility and affiliation of the report writer.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Accuracy of New UN Report on Somalia Doubtful[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A report by the UN Monitoring Group on Somalia leaked to the Washington Post on November 14 has set off a wave of denials and denunciations from various countries alleged to be fueling the conflict in Somalia. Djibouti, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Uganda, Iran, Syria and Lebanon's Hezbollah are all cited as supplying arms, troops or other military materials to the warring sides in Somalia, which consist of the Transitional Federal Government (TFG) and the coalition of Islamist rebels known as the Islamic Courts Union (ICU). The report also warns of the adoption of Iraq-style tactics by the ICU, including suicide bombers, assassinations and other types of terrorist activities. The Monitoring Group intelligence team responsible for the report consists of a Colombian finance expert, a Kenyan maritime expert and arms experts from Belgium and the United States. Their 86-page document is based on interviews, investigations and information supplied by various embassies in Nairobi.

The report accurately describes the leading roles of Ethiopia and Eritrea in arming Somalia's militias. Ethiopia already has as many as 6,000 troops in Somalia supporting the TFG and has supplied TFG militias with a variety of arms. Eritrea is accused of supplying 2,000 troops and arms to the ICU, including portable surface-to-air missiles. Surprisingly, the report does not even mention allegations (widely accepted as reality within Somalia) that the United States was the chief supplier of arms and cash to the ill-fated "Anti-Terrorist Coalition" of anti-ICU warlords (Terrorism Focus, May 31). Eritrea's information minister suggested a political bias to the document: "We know these statements are coming from Washington" (Gulf News, November 15).

Iran is alleged to have sent three payloads of medicine, physicians, ammunition and arms, including surface-to-air missiles, M-79 rocket-launchers, machine guns and landmines. They are also said to have supplied an aircraft to carry 40 wounded Somalis back to Somalia from Lebanon. Iran said such reports were "in line with the wishes of hostile enemies" (IRNA, November 17).

Egypt was accused of offering military training to the Somali Islamists. An Egyptian denial expressed "great surprise and anguish" at the report, saying that it was prepared by "Western experts whose political affiliations are not known" (Associated Press, November 17). Egypt is deeply involved in diplomatic efforts to avert war in the Horn region. The report also described Libyan arms supplies to the ICU, training for 100 fighters and financial aid. A Libyan Foreign Ministry spokesman described the allegations as "incredible" (Reuters, November 17). Syria has also denied sending an air shipment of arms to the ICU.

Uganda was said to have provided military materials and an unspecified number of soldiers in support of the TFG. Ugandan Defense Minister Chrispus Kiyonga announced that Uganda will complain to the United Nations over the report, describing it as "trash" (Reuters, November 17).

The most startling revelation in the report deals with 720 Somali fighters who are alleged to have traveled to Lebanon to join the fighting against the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) last July. There were no reports from the IDF during or after the war regarding any "Africans" observed, captured or killed in the fighting. UN observers and journalists also failed to mention Somali fighters. In exchange for the fighters, Hezbollah is said to have shipped arms to Somalia and arranged for further supplies from Syria and Iran.

The fighters were allegedly chosen by Adan Hashi Ayro, the right-hand man to ICU leader Sheikh Hassan Dahir Aweys. Presumably, they were from Ayro's own command, as it is hard to see him being able to separate another coalition leader from his fighters in the middle of an intensifying conflict. With an estimated 2,000 to 3,000 trained fighters in the ICU, the decision to send fighters to Lebanon would have stripped the Somali Islamists of nearly a third of their best men. Hezbollah did not even commit its reserves during the fighting with Israel, yet according to the report, Hezbollah shipped arms, which it needed in the middle of a war, to Somalia in exchange for foreign fighters that it did not need. According to the UN document, 600 Somali fighters remained in Lebanon and Syria for further training, while five Hezbollah military advisers went to Somalia to help the ICU. A Hezbollah representative described the allegations as "incorrect and silly" (Daily Star [Beirut], November 16). After several days of silence on the matter, Israel's ambassador to the UN, Dan Gillerman, issued a surprising statement claiming that Israel "had been aware" of 700 Somali fighters in Lebanon (Israel Insider, November 18).

Hezbollah's effectiveness is in large part due to its own security and intelligence network, based on intimate knowledge of its members. While Palestinian movements are riddled with informers, Israeli intelligence has had great difficulty penetrating Hezbollah. It is unlikely that Hezbollah would attempt to integrate 700 unknown Somalis in the midst of military operations against Israel.

One of the report's additional surprising claims concerns Iranian attempts to secure Somali uranium in exchange for arms. Somalia is estimated to have 6,600 tons of recoverable uranium, which is difficult and expensive to extract. In 1984, a Brazilian/Somali joint venture attempted to develop the Somali uranium resources, but the effort collapsed due to financial and logistical problems. There have been no mining activities since as a result of ongoing security difficulties and high recovery costs that would make operations in Somalia uneconomical. Iran has opened 10 uranium mines since 1988. Proven reserves total about 3,000 tons, a sufficient amount to fuel Iran's nuclear program.

ICU Deputy Security Chief Sheikh Mukhtar Robow Abu-Mansur described the report as "a matter of laughing," suggesting that the ICU would be quite rich if it were actually in the uranium business. The sheikh added: "How can we receive arms from Arab countries while American warships patrol the Somali coastline and the planes landing [in Somalia] are also under tight surveillance?" (Garowe Online, November 16). ICU leader Sheikh Aweys warned that the United Nations risked losing its legitimacy by issuing "baseless propaganda" (Shabelle Media Network, November 16). The report's claims are remarkably similar to accusations that appeared in the U.S. National Intelligence Estimates of September 2002, during the build-up to the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

The UN report mixes legitimate concerns about arms supplies to both sides of Somalia's latest incarnation of its civil war with recycled allegations from the campaign against Saddam Hussein and what can only be regarded as politically manipulated "intelligence," creating a vast international conspiracy between unlikely partners. The failure of the report to even examine information of U.S. support to the failed "Anti-Terrorist Coalition" is a major blow to its authority. Its suggestion that Iran might find a source of uranium for its nuclear program in Somalia appears outlandish under present conditions. Much of the material simply reiterates unsupported allegations involving Iran, Egypt and Libya issued by TFG Prime Minister Ali Muhammad Gedi in July. Most surprising is the ease with which so many countries were apparently able to transport arms and men back and forth without interference from the U.S. naval force off Somalia and last summer's air and sea blockade of Lebanon by Israel.

A closed-door discussion by the Somali sanctions committee on November 21 will decide whether to send the report to the UN Security Council for further consideration. [/FONT]

http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2370213

 

[senojekips]

This is no doubt in my mind, that not every country is ready, or suited to "our" style of democracy. Some countries just do not have the mindset, education or maturity that will allow them to just peacefully step into "our" style of 20th century "Democracy".

Take for example Yugoslavia, as much as we disliked Tito's political affiliations, no one can deny that his authoritarian style was the only thing that could hold the country together. After 40 years of relative internal peace, the country just exploded when he died.

The people had learned nothing, and obviously placed no value on the peace and relative prosperity that his government had bought them. Their own selfish pride was more important.

 

[UnitedSomalia]

If this is the report you was speaking of, well let me start saying this story disproves you argument. First of all the report you speak of coincided with the Ethiopian-American invasion of Somalia, that report was not an official UN report and was denied by the UN as unverified and hearsay. That report was all hearsay by different embassy officials in Nairobi with all different motives, none of their statements were ever corroborated or verified. Now this was an attempt to give pretext to the American-Ethiopian offensive the release of the report coincided with the invasion. That was nothing more than that Tony Blair memo and the WMD lies that were used to give pretext to the Iraqi invasion, it was meant to achieve those same lies and deceptions with uncorroborated misleading info. This report exactly disproves you argument, imagine 700 Somalis fighting with Hezbollah, and none of them were spotted though they stick out like a sore thumb, that none of them or wounded, killed or captured by the Israelis.

The other problem with the accuracy of your claim Somalis and Hezbollah collabrated is story is that if the claims 40 Somalis that were wounded in Lebanon that the Iranians flew back to Somalia. Here is the problem their were no Somalis ever fighting in Lebanon, no Somalis ever known fighting in any of the Middle East problems, of all the records of Saudi, Kuwaiti, Afghan, Lebanese fighters being involved in the various Middle East wars, not one time has their ever been mention Somalis being involved in those conflicts . The other problem is that their no records of ever an Iranian plane landing in Somalia.

The only planes from Muslim countries that were ever sent to Somalia were humanitarian aid, you guys must remember that tsunami that hit the Indian ocean about 2 years ago, these flights you speak of were flights by Muslim countries and the Islamic Crescent to aid the effected Somalis. Whole regions of Somalia was flooded. The other flaw is that if the Iranians sent surface to air missiles and the ICU were trained in Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt how come no fixed wing Ethiopia fighter bombers and American gunships were ever shot down. The ICU was getting bombed ferociously in the air by the Ethiopians and the Americans, if the had these SAMs wouldn't have they used to give themselves some sort of air cover against Ethiopian jets with no anti-missile defenses and slow moving gunships.

Israel said "After several days of silence on the matter, Israel's ambassador to the UN, Dan Gillerman, issued a surprising statement claiming that Israel "had been aware" of 700 Somali fighters in Lebanon (Israel Insider, November 1.) " How come that at no point during the Hezbollah-Israeli conflict Israel never mention these "Somali fighters"? This was unverified and basless report in which the UN denied themselves, it seems convenient that right before the invasion of Somalia that these reports were leaked and Israel joined the fray to back up the American allegations. It doesn't make sense that "With an estimated 2,000 to 3,000 trained fighters in the ICU, the decision to send fighters to Lebanon would have stripped the Somali Islamists of nearly a third of their best men. Hezbollah did not even commit its reserves during the fighting with Israel, yet according to the report, Hezbollah shipped arms, which it needed in the middle of a war, to Somalia in exchange for foreign fighters that it did not need."

Somalis are not similar to Arabs in skin color, if they were fighting for Hezbollah they would have been noticed by Israeli soldiers at the onset of the war, the Somalis would have stood out like a sore thumb "It is unlikely that Hezbollah would attempt to integrate 700 unknown Somalis in the midst of military operations against Israel."

Does anyone else who read 03USMC's allegations including you Monty find it riddled with inconsistencies and mind blowing baseless allegations? Wow I won't even need to argue with you anymore, this article completely disproved you argument. LOL (shaking my head.) I don't need to say any more.

 

[MontyB]

umm you may want to re-read the post and the report.

It is questioning the data used to make the UN report that 03 was quoting, basically it is supporting your argument.

I knew I should have stayed out of this one.

 

[UnitedSomalia]

Monty I am sorry if you misunderstood me or if I came at you the wrong way that was not my intention, the question I was asking you was that if this is the article that 03USMC was trying to use for his argument? Since that this article completely does the opposite of his point. I even used quotes from this article you posted to back my own statements up, thank you.