If Japan Had Attacked the Soviet Union

Would the Axis destroy the Soviet Union and take control of Europe?

  • Yes, eventually the Red Army would be destroyed.

    Votes: 1 16.7%

  • No, the Red Army would still push the Axis out.

    Votes: 5 83.3%
  • Total voters
    6
The Japanese did attempt an attack against the Soviets but had the unfortunate pleasure of running into General Zhukov. The Japanese lost the battle after having severely underestimated the USSR's power.
Keep in mind that General Zhukov was one of the KEY reasons why Russia beat the Germans. When it was clear Japan would not invade Russia, Zhukov, Russia's most accomplished General, was able to go to direct the war against the Germans. Had Japan even kept the intent of invading Russia, Russia would have had to keep a significant force and a bright General in the east.

But of course we know about Japan's desperate fuel situation at the time.
 
redcoat said:
airmanpatroler said:
If Japan had invaded they would have more than likely invaded through the North and south in a pincer attack. Surround the USSR forces and forvce a surrender.
Click to expand...
Japan didn't attack the Soviets for 3 reasons.

First, there was very little for them to gain if they did so, Siberia was at that time thousands of miles of nothingness.

Secondly, The Japanese army was an infantry army with very few tanks( and the ones they had were crap) and almost no transport. If they invaded the majority of their army would have to walk :roll: Their logistics would fail before they got anywhere.

Thirdly, They had already taken on the Soviets in the 30's and the Soviets had kicked their butts. The Japanese military wasn't in the mood to get their butts kicked again

In 1941 the Italians attacked the British in N,Africa with a massive army very similar to the Japanese army, lots of infantry with very few tanks and transport. A very small but highly mobile British force using the open spaces of the desert cut them to pieces.
The same thing would have happened to the Japanese if they had tried to take on the Soviets in the vastness of Siberia.
Click to expand...

The Japanese most certianly would have defeated the Soviets for one reason, air power the soviets had very little at that time as far as air power and most likely have not controlled the MOST of siberia, ,but just enough to surround them at Chita and Vladivostok
And as far as the Italians are concerned that was poor equipment and leadership on the Italians behalf.
 
keep in mind that russia's backyard * the fareast) has a formitable army, it nubmred some 3000 tanks, red honor* units, some 1.2 millon men under arms, 2000 aircrafts and 11000 artillery. also, throughout the war, though russians kept takign chunks off the fareast front, in turn they recieved the fresh batch of new equipemtn from teh good ol soviet factories.

During 1945, the soveits had 1.5 millon men, of in which 3 armies are guards units, 1 shock army( though changed name to guards) and 5 other armies in which all are well equiped, experienced, and stacked well with ammunition. the most important thign is that the russians had more than 20,000 artillery pieces( something the japanese really pisstheirpantswet about) and more than 4500 tanks and 7000 aircrafts.

the soviets also had 3 airborne divisionsl, 2 marine divisions, and a naval fleet.


when the soviets invaded manchuria, it was overwelming for the regular japanese infantry to handel since most had rifles aginsit soviet platoons all armed with autimatic submachines, the japanese also has little amount of tanks, unheard of anti-tank weap ons, and their artillery are lil more than 77mm mountain howtizers..

the offensive wasnt really cared much about because the soviets crushed the japanese like a bear stampingon a worm...
 
the offensive wasnt really cared much about because the soviets crushed the japanese like a bear stampingon a worm...
Click to expand...

Even though the Soviets had numeric superiority and had better equipment, it is possible that the Japanese army (which in this case is better led and trained) can push back the Soviet Offensive if they were able to recieve additional supplies and reinforcements. But, unfortunately the Kwuntung Army was implying suicidal attacks which amazingly made the Soviet Offensive difficult to push forward.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
The Japanese did attempt an attack against the Soviets but had the unfortunate pleasure of running into General Zhukov. The Japanese lost the battle after having severely underestimated the USSR's power.
Keep in mind that General Zhukov was one of the KEY reasons why Russia beat the Germans. When it was clear Japan would not invade Russia, Zhukov, Russia's most accomplished General, was able to go to direct the war against the Germans. Had Japan even kept the intent of invading Russia, Russia would have had to keep a significant force and a bright General in the east.

But of course we know about Japan's desperate fuel situation at the time.
Click to expand...

I don't think Marshall Zhukov was one of the KEY reasons why the the USSR beat the Germans. He was a competent, able strategist that's true but he couldn't have done anything about the German invasion had the Germans not made key errors at various points during Operation Barbarossa. Zhukov is lauded as a superman in the West but closer scrutiny of his military record reveals flaws and mistakes, none bigger than the disaster that was Operation Mars. IMO Marshall Konev was just as able as Zhukov but he never seems to get mentioned in the West.

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/battles/battle12_04.html

You're correct in saying that just the threat of a Japanese attack may have kept Zhukov and his Siberian divisions in the East. And had the Japanese attacked they would have been smashed by those same divisions. I think the Imperial Japanese Army well knew that they were not suited to fight against a modern mechanized army, especially in winter conditions. They had neither the armour nor the logistics in place to attempt a foray into the USSR anyway.
 
I think Japan could have taken the USSR. The main strength of the USSR's military was simply immense numbers. The Japanese had air superiority and could have easily taken out their infantry and artillery.
 
airmanpatroler said:
Well the key would have been a two front war and surround the Russian army and cut off supply lines
Click to expand...

The threat of a 2 front war yes. In hindsight it was a curious decision for Japan not to declare war on the USSR. Had they done so, who knows what would have happened around Moscow in Dec '41/Jan '42.
 
Zhukov.... strategist.... It seems to me that Zhukov's only strategy was to pile on manpower and equipment onto German lines. If he broke though great if not well try it again else were. It worked but that doesn't mean that it was brilliant strategy.

The German cause would have been helped if Hitler would have allowed His armies to fall back to more defenciable positions before they were bleed white by the red army. Zhukov strategy worked because Hitler's ego exacerbated German difficulties.
 
swordrapier said:
Zhukov.... strategist.... It seems to me that Zhukov's only strategy was to pile on manpower and equipment onto German lines. If he broke though great if not well try it again else were. It worked but that doesn't mean that it was brilliant strategy.

The German cause would have been helped if Hitler would have allowed His armies to fall back to more defenciable positions before they were bleed white by the red army. Zhukov strategy worked because Hitler's ego exacerbated German difficulties.
Click to expand...

After Kursk onwards were the Germans doing this, and they inflicted very heavy Soviet casualties right up until the end of the Battle of Berlin. But you're right, had they started doing this earlier then who knows. Certainly the Red Army was the only army in the world IMO that was able to survive such grievous casualties and still win. Had Zhukov been a German, British or American marshall he'd have been dismissed after the debacle that was Operation Mars.
 
yes they can, thats what they did during the german ivnasion, tehy jsut took apart their factories, railed it east, and aassembled it like toys 8)
 
So far it sounds like none of you guys know anything. Heres the facts.

In 1939 the Russians and Japanese fought a series of battles in Mongolia. The Japanese got the worst of it,and this had a major impact on later battles in ww2.
Called Khalkhin Gol (or Nomonhan), it was basically a border dispute in which the Japanese tested their army against the Russian forces.The Japanese failed the test,and as a result decided to leave the Russians alone during ww2.This had a considerable effect on the Russian battles with the Germans far to the west.In 1941, Russia had nearly 40 divisions facing, a dozen Japanese Divisions in Manchuria, and most of these Russian divisions were shipped west when the Germans invaded in June.
The Japanese,Germans,and Italians had signed a military alliance in 1936 (the axis),but the terms were vague.The Germans hoped that the Japanese would attack Russian forces in Siberia if the Germans invaded Russia from the west.The outcome of Khalkhin Gol caused the Japanese to leave the Russians alone throughout the ww2.
In the 1930s Japan felt it was militarily superior to the Russians.Having defeated them on land and sea in the 1904-1905 war,the Japanese believed they still held a military edge.Then came a series of border clashes.They defeated in a division-sized battle in eastern Manchuriain 1938.They rationalized this defeat and spoiled for another round with the Russians. While the Japanese had some success in smaller border skirmishes,they had yet to defeat the Russians in a deliberate battle.
They sought to test their imagined advantage in May 1939, by forcibly redrawing the border between Japanese-held Manchuria and Russian-controlled Mongolia.A Japanese division advanced to the Khalkhin Gol (or Halha)river,and a reinforced Russian division threw them back.Undeterred, the japanese planned a larger attack in July. This battle involved two major changes.The Japanese reinforced the division they had used in May by adding two tank Regiments(70 tanks) and a new infantry regiment.The Russians brought in General Georgy Zhukov(later to be the architect of the Russian defeat of the Germans) and a larger force (about 3 divisions,mostly motorized).Because the battlefield was five hundred miles from the nearist railroad, the Japanese thought the Russians incapable of reinforcing their forces so quickly and heavily.Despite their transportation problems the Russians massed over 300 tanks against the Japanese. In the air both sides were more evenly matched.
The July battles were another disaster for the Japanese.Their initial attack on July 3 made some progress, but then the Russians attacked and forced the Japanese back.By July 14 , both sides halted.At this point , the Japanese decided that artillery was the key and brought in heavy guns.The artillery deuls during the last week of July went against the Japanese. The Russians were able to fire three times as many shells and had generally heavier guns.
In August the Russians had planned thier own attack, an amoured offencive that would settle this border dispute once and for all.Bringing up 4 divisions and 500 tanks(as well as 24,000 tons of ammunition), the Russians moved forward against the 2 japanese divisions on August 20.This was , in effect, the first real armouredoffencive of the 20th century and was a smashing success. Within 4 days the Japanese had been pushed back to what the Russians considered the real border. There the Russians halted, although they could have kept chasing the shattered Japanese. Events back in europe made further involvment in Manchuria inadvisable.In September a cease-fire agreement was signed, thus ending the fighting.
as ww2 battles go Khalkhin Gol was not a big one.The japanese lost 18,000 casualties out of 40,000 troops involved, the Russians lost 14,000 casualties out of 70,000 troops sent in. Altogether 100 tanks were lost and 200 aircraft.
The japanese knew the correct conclusion from 3 months of battle. They knew that the Russians were superior and discarded their pre-Khaklhin Gol plan for assembling 40 divisions to push the Russians back to the Ural Mountians.At the same time the Nazi-Soviet treaty was anounced. This caused the Japanese to renounce their 1936 treaty with Germany.This hurt Germany the most because they lost an allie in the east which let the Russians sent most of the 40 divisions to help defend Moscow in late 1941.
One of the most curios things about Khalkhin Gol was the rest of the world knew almost nothing of it and any other smaller Russo-Japanese clashes of the second world war. The Japanese naturally were not inclined to spread the word about their unpleasent defeat against the Russians,and the Russians were obsessed with secrecy.

Japan could never had defeated the Russians because they did not have the amount of equipment that the russians had and the Japanese army was a very poorly equiped one. On the other hand Russian could have wiped out the japanese before the Germans invaded the russians if they just kept going.

Hope this clears things up.
 
Good info there CanadianCombat but no need to insult people whilst doing so. ;)

If you read my posts you'll see that I agree with you. Japan attacking the Soviet Union in 1941 would have been a disaster, for the Japanese. However just the mere threat of a possible Japanese attack could have made a difference to the Battle for Moscow.
 
The Red Army would be eventally destroryed due to it having to fight a two front war it would have to divide its forces.
 
Russia lost 20 million people during WW2 but this did not affect it's performance one jot. Could or would America take these loses and shrug them off, the problem with invading a place like Russia is it's size. America says that it is a big country, but it would fit into Russia about three times. An invading Army needs to be able to control the what happens on the ground and in Russia this is almost impossible.
 
CanadianCombat said:
So far it sounds like none of you guys know anything. Heres the facts.
Click to expand...


I like that this is coming from someone who doesn't know much more than those he says don't know anything. The Red Army had anywhere from half a million men to over a million men in the Far East at any point during the war. The myth of Siberian divisions saving the Soviet Union is just that. Divisions were used from all over the Soviet Union, including the Caucasus, Urals, Trans-Baikal, and the Far East. They were helpful, but the offensive could have proceeded with or without them. In fact they could have been sent anyway since there were so many of them in the Far East. The Japanese wouldn't have accomplished much of anything, Soviet forces in the Far East had increased to a rather large number so that they'd have kept them at bay and conscripts from the area could have been sent to the West or taken the place of those divisions being sent to the west, the latter is in fact what happened.
 
True they hd a large number of men but they would be fighting a two front war and Germany outclassed the Russians in firepower and tactics and the Jappanese were fanatics who fought to the last man.
 
Josh678 said:
True they hd a large number of men but they would be fighting a two front war and Germany outclassed the Russians in firepower and tactics and the Jappanese were fanatics who fought to the last man.
Click to expand...

Can you be any more general? The Red Army was prepared to fight a two front war, in fact they did fight a multifront war if one considers the fact that they fought Finland, as well as Romania in the South, etc. They still had troops stationed in Iran, which they jointly invaded with England, and on the border with Turkey, as well as half a million men lined up against Japanese aggression.
 
Before the Russians had defeated Germany they also turned there attention to Japanese in China and with in the space of a couple of weeks had destroyed them completely. They went at them just the same as they had the Germans and totally wiped them out
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top