How Would You Solve the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict?

[VDKMS]

For your information, the Bali bombing was a long, lonnnnng time after the formation of Israel bought about Global Islamic terrorism, and was a direct result of it.

The Jamaah Islamiyah freely admitted, or claimed to be allied with Al Qaeda and their cause. JI's bomb makers were trained by them, and Al Qaeda only came into being to fight the Israel and their supporters. (Those who were seen as oppressing Muslims). Exactly how simple does it have to be, for you to get a grip of what is being said.

I can explain it a thousand times. What I can't do, is give you the intellect to understand what is being said.

Most of your explanations are worthless and on-sided, like the ones you just gave.
PS, why don't you answer the tricky questions? And here is another one: why does Al Qaeda kill so many Shia Muslims in Iraq while Israel is not that far away.

 

[senojekips]

Most of your explanations are worthless and on-sided, like the ones you just gave.
PS, why don't you answer the tricky questions? And here is another one: why does Al Qaeda kill so many Shia Muslims in Iraq while Israel is not that far away.

Because, most of your statements are no more than rote learned Zionist propaganda with little or no connection to the debate at hand, thrown into the debate with no other aim than to derail it,..."and therefore are worthless and one-sided", just like the reply you just gave.

What the various factions and individuals who follow Al Qaeda do among themselves is of no consquence and has no bearing on why they came into being.

Anyway,... it not a "Tricky question" in fact, it's more like, "dumb as dog sh!t", again demonstrating that you have absolutely no knowledge of Islam and even less of "radical" Islam, other than that rubbish which you've been spoon fed by Zionist propagandists. The answer being, "probably because the majority of those involved in Al Quaeda are Sunni, which in almost all other Muslim countries just happens to be the dominant Muslim sect by a ratio of about 4:1, and they see the Shia who happen to be a majority in Iraq, as an impediment to their local aims".

Never the less this has nothing whatsoever to do with the reasons why Al Qaeda or any other global Islamic terrorist group came into being, and is no more than another of your attempted diversions.

 

[grey shadow]

Israel has never accepted the borders of 1948 but mentions them only as armistice lines, and has to date not finalized its state foundation. In the Israeli-Jewish discussion, Greater Israel, both religiously and ideologically is a prominent place. The 1967-War with the occupation of the Jordanian West Bank is not only a question of security and conquest of territory. The national-religious theme plays a crucial role. Israel's colonization by Jewish settlers in the West Bank must be viewed in that context. Settlements are both ideological and religious. This is especially true in the time from the political "regime change" in 1977 with power transition from the European state builders to Israel's large Sephardic Jewish community of Oriental-Arabic origin. Here the national-religious settler movement Gush Emonim became a significant force in the settlement policy and thus in Israeli security policy. Today, settlements, is one of the strongest points of contention in negotiations - and the continuing struggle - between Israel and the Palestinians on the remaining 22 percent of Palestine. Even after the Oslo process was started in 1993, the settlement policy continued. Between 1993 and 2000 the number of Jewish settlers in the West Bank (excluding East Jerusalem) was increased by almost 100 percent.

Since 1967, each of the successive Israeli governments has invested significant resources in creating and expanding settlements in the occupied territories, both in land and population. As a result of the policy about 380,000 Israeli citizens lives there today in the settlements in the West Bank alone, inclusive East Jerusalem. Israel has used a complex mixture of legal and bureaucratic mechanisms to take control of more than 50 percent of the land of West Bank settlements and the future expansion of settlements. The dramatic change that Israel has carried out in the West Bank blocks the possibility to create an independent, viable Palestinian state as part of the Palestinians' right to self determination.

The core of the current conflict between Israel and the Palestinians are the settlements and the Palestinian refugees' right of return. The issue of final borders and thus the creation of an independent Palestinian state in the rest of the original Palestine. The Israeli foundation for the Jewish state is the Jews right to "return" regardless that most of the world's Jews have never set foot in the area.

 

[grey shadow]

A settlement, you might think as something innocent and natural. But you can’t call the Israeli colonization of occupied Palestinian land that. Here are some facts. Settlements are essentially large housing projects built illegally by Israel on land confiscated from Palestinians in the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza. These settlements are connected with each other and with Israel through "bypass roads" that can only be used by Israelis, and which are also built on land owned by Palestinians, but confiscated by the Israeli government. Israeli settlements affect Palestinian daily life and impact on long-term Palestinian development needs. They cause the Palestinians to live in constant insecurity and fragmentation and therefore prevent economic, social and political development.

There are 205 settlements in the West Bank (including Jerusalem) and Gaza. 190 in the West Bank and 15 in Gaza. At least 74 outposts (homes that are not consistent with the established settlements) were established after the Oslo Accords (1993). The Israeli-controlled areas (including settlements, military and industrial facilities) in the West Bank are 106 square kilometers (2.1% of West Bank's total area). Palestinian built-up areas occupy 283 square kilometers (8.5% of West Bank's total area). The entire rest of the West Bank, including all boundaries, is under Israeli security control. One million Palestinians are living on 360 square kilometers of land in Gaza, making Gaza the most densely populated area in the world. Despite that, 5000 Israeli settlers remain in Gaza and controls 30% of the area. There are 403,249 settlers on the West Bank. 211,788 of these settlers live in Jerusalem.

It is clear to the international community that it would be beneficial for peace in the Middle East if Israel withdrew fully from the occupied territories and let the Palestinians get a coherent state here. But it won’t happen; this settlement policy has created a thorny political issue in Israel. No Israeli leader can give up the settlements and ordering settlers to move without having to confront a very strong alliance of settlers' organizations and right-wing parties. Such a confrontation could face the risk of a large internal shock in Israel. In any case, conditions where the normal political system and its ways of functioning becomes inoperative. It is this scenario, the Israeli leader’s fears, depending on whether they are willing to give up areas or not. And it is this scenario which has held Israeli leaders from giving the necessary concessions in the form of contiguous territory and authority to the Palestinians. This despite the fact that they probably would like to see a so-called land-for-peace solution to the conflict.

And here we see the Israeli strategy. If the Israeli leaders won’t take the necessary confrontation with the settlers, then we export the problem to the Palestinian side, since the Palestinians thus had to accept a process of protracted negotiations and vague agreements and autonomy as a transition to independence. Bigger and faster territorial concessions by Israel would be to invite revolt from the settlers. The Palestinian side probably can’t sustain this pressure, and the opponents of the agreements would be able to do so much resistance that the Palestinian leadership could not live up to the agreements' terms of peace and order in the Palestinian camp. This resistance would frighten the Israelis that they would be even more reluctant to make concessions to the Palestinians. And thus would the situation be fixed.

It is that development we have seen from 1993 until today. Negotiations for the transfer of territories have been sluggish, and the result has been a small and geographically fragmented autonomy for the Palestinians.
As anticipated, this situation has caused great internal unrest in the Palestinian territories. Not at least because the challenge from the settlers are still essential if Israel withdraws fully from all of the occupied territories.

Israel is not so eager for the establishment of a bi-national state which is not surprising, since such a development would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state. There is still time for Israelis to change and reverse this process, but time may be running out faster than we realize, and it requires far more than Sharon's "painful concessions".

:type:

 

[grey shadow]

The meaning of the word "Goyim"

I have noticed some confusion about what the Yiddish word "goyim" means. It is borrowed from Hebrew, in which the singular "goy" and plural "goyim" literally mean "nation, nations". This word is used extensively in the Old Testament, sometimes to refer the nation of Israel and sometimes to other nations. It is this latter usage which is the source of its current meaning. The word "goyim" refers to those of "other nations", in other words "non-Jews" or "gentiles". It is not an intrinsically pejorative or derogatory term. Of course, in the mouth of a Jew being a "goyim" is not a good thing and they know exactly what they mean in the connotation of that word and how it applies to the non-Jew. But in most cases, one should translate the word "goyim" as "gentile" and not see this a negative term.

 

[VDKMS]

@ Grey Shadow
Very nice article about those settlements. I think that almost everyone agrees that the land on wich the settlements are build must be giving back to a Palestinian state. But we must also admit that some international jurists, including someone who worked as a judge of International Court of Justice and Professor of International Law at Johns Hopkins University, dispute that.
I don't know where you got those figures but I got mine from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#West_Bank and they are slightly deifferent. But I think the number of Gaza settlements is incorrect, because they are all gone now (there used to be 21).
Under Israeli law, West Bank settlements must meet specific criteria to be legal. In 2009, there were approximately 100 small communities that did not meet these criteria and are referred to as illegal outposts.(BBC. 25 November 2009).
There is also a minor positive side to the settlements and that is Palestinian labor. 20.000 Palestinians work(ed) there in 2010. I don't know how many there are now because the Palestinian leaders banned that practise. There are also approx 12.000 employed by Israeli and Palestinian conctractors in settlement construction and expansion projects.
So it seems that the average Israeli and Palestinian can get along well together. The problem (as always) is politics and fanatics.

 

[senojekips]

Under Israeli law, West Bank settlements must meet specific criteria to be legal. In 2009, there were approximately 100 small communities that did not meet these criteria and are referred to as illegal outposts.(BBC. 25 November 2009).

That's the whole point, under International Law all Israeli settlements are illegal, if you want to go down that road, Under German law at the time, the death camps were "legal". Sorry, but your childish attempts at squirming around the facts just don't even get off the starting line.

There is also a minor positive side to the settlements and that is Palestinian labor.

Your perverted arguments are an affront to human intelligence. The Nazis used Jews in the building of the the crematoria too, but I hardly feel that they would have seen it in a positive light.

 

[VDKMS]

That's the whole point, under International Law all Israeli settlements are illegal, if you want to go down that road, Under German law at the time, the death camps were "legal". Sorry, but your childish attempts at squirming around the facts just don't even get off the starting line.
Your perverted arguments are an affront to human intelligence. The Nazis used Jews in the building of the the crematoria too, but I hardly feel that they would have seen it in a positive light.

Well you do like to compare Israeli behaviour with Nazi behaviour, just as some people compare apples and oranges.
Do you know that a lot of the international laws are contradictory? I can even give you an example that you won't like.
Those who themselves infringe the International laws (terrorism attacks , attacking a souvereign state, racist laws) are in no position to demand that others have to comply.

About the labor, the jews, gypsies, forced laborers had to work for free. The Palestinians got paid according to Jordanian labor laws and thanks to a Israeli non-profit association they got paid much more under Israeli labor laws, until 2010 when the Palestinian leaders banned working at settlements wich a majority opposed. Thousands of Palestinians lost their job and the Israelis were forced to look for immigrants to do the work.
The Palestinian leaders are to a large extent responsible for the poverty of their own people.

 

[senojekips]

Well you do like to compare Israeli behaviour with Nazi behaviour, just as some people compare apples and oranges.

Not apples and oranges, Nazis and Nazis, plenty of eminent Jewish scholars, Rabbis and academics agree with me including some Holocaust survivors.

Auschwitz survivor: ‘Israel acts like Nazis’

• 

• Dr Hajo Meyer’s lecture tour includes three dates in Scotland
• Exclusive: Graeme Murray and Chris Watt

24 Jan 2010
One of the last remaining Auschwitz survivors has launched a blistering attack on Israel over its occupation of Palestine as he began a lecture tour of Scotland.
Dr Hajo Meyer, 86, who survived 10 months in the Nazi death camp, spoke out as his 10-day tour of the UK and Ireland – taking in three Scottish venues – got under way. His comments sparked a furious reaction from hardline Jewish lobby groups, with Dr Meyer branded an “anti-Semite” and accused of abusing his position as a Holocaust survivor.

Do you know that a lot of the international laws are contradictory? I can even give you an example that you won't like.
Those who themselves infringe the International laws (terrorism attacks , attacking a souvereign state, racist laws) are in no position to demand that others have to comply.

There is no contradiction there at all. Firstly, you already know that being a 'Sovereign State has no bearing upon the matter, and secondly that the Palestinians have every right to resist an illegal occupation in any way that they can, and anyway, we have already shown that it was the Zionists who first started terrorising the Palestinians and Brithish administration. So you example flies in your face further implicating Israel.

About the labor, the jews, gypsies, forced laborers had to work for free. The Palestinians got paid according to Jordanian labor laws and thanks to a Israeli non-profit association they got paid much more under Israeli labor laws, until 2010 when the Palestinian leaders banned working at settlements wich a majority opposed. Thousands of Palestinians lost their job and the Israelis were forced to look for immigrants to do the work.
The Palestinian leaders are to a large extent responsible for the poverty of their own people.

Yeah,... like the Judenrat, were responsible for the poverty in the Ghettos, your excuses are those of a five year old.
The Palestinians lost their jobs largely because Israel forced them off their own land, and occupied it, many of those that remained were subjected to having their homes bulldozed, and orchards rripped up and stolen by Jewish "settlers". We know why Palestinians are unemployed and it has little to do with the Palestinian leadership

What really amazes me about apologists like yourself is that you defend the actions of these "Middle eastern Nazis" with childish lies that are so easy to disprove. You have never woken up to the fact that with cheap cameras and the internet, Israeli censorship is now almost non existent and the world is seeing their crimes in real time.

 

[BritinBritain]

My dad was in Palestine, he remembers the King David Hotel being blown up, and the hanging of two British Sergeants Martin and Paice. The bodies of the Sergeants were booby trapped, and mines laid around the bodies. 5 Jews were killed and 15 wounded in Tel Aviv in reprisals by members of the Security forces for the murder of the two sergeants to shouts of unfair, typical NAZI tactics. Kick a dog and it's going to bite back.

There are many more recorded incidents like these. It has to be said that the measure of restraint show by the British forces in Palestine, who were faced by these acts of terrorism, was of the highest standards. There were however a some members of the British forces who took matters of revenge into their own hands. The night after the Tel Aviv car park attack, troops of the 6th Airborne Division stationed at Qastina took the law into their own hands for a short time and damaged several Jewish houses.

The American media were strongly pro Jewish and very anti British. One Hollywood motion picture Mogul declared in the British press that he had a holiday in his heart every time a British soldier was killed in Palestine. and large sections of the American media echoed this sentiment. At one point early in 1945 Winston Churchill became so irritated with continual American shouting about Palestine that he suggested that since the Americans were so unhappy about the way Britain was handling Palestine, "the best solution would be for them to take the job over themselves, I'm not aware that Britain has to vaunt about this painful and thankless task, he said, and someone else should have their turn and the sooner the better".

On the 25th of April 1945 the Stern Gang carried out their most cold blooded attacks to date. A large car park in Tel Aviv was being used by the 6th Airborne Division as a transport deport. The car park was surrounded only by barbed wire and guarded by a section of 8 men and from the 5th Parachute brigade who were billeted in tents near to entrance of the car park. At 20:30 hours, three trucks pulled up unobserved outside a house opposite the car park entrance. From these trucks 25 armed members of the Stern gang got out. The Jewish terrorists entered the house and held to occupants at gun point as they set up firing positions towards the car park entrance. About 15 minutes later a bomb was thrown at the main gate of the car park and the the terrorists opened fire on the British Paratroops.

Those not killed in this initial hail of fire took cover in the tents. About 20 terrorists then left the house and entered the car park. They entered the first tent and found two British soldiers and a NCO who had been off duty and were now trying to take cover from the fire from the house. All three were shot at close range with machine guns. The NCO was somehow not hit and pretended to be dead. The terrorists then moved on to the next tent were they murdered another two unarmed Paratroopers. In all 7 British soldiers were killed, most were unarmed.

This attack had a serious effect on the British Army, which had previously been very sympathetic to the Jewish cause. The 6th Airborne Division had seen a lot of fighting in Northwest Europe towards the end of the war and had first hand experience of liberating the Nazi concentration camps. As a result the airborne soldiers had arrived in Palestine prepared to help and support the Jewish community. But the Stern gangs attack and the murders of the August 25, 1946 changed all that.

 

[VDKMS]

Not apples and oranges, Nazis and Nazis, plenty of eminent Jewish scholars, Rabbis and academics agree with me including some Holocaust survivors.

You must tell everything not just bits and pieces. Hajo Meyer is a member of the Dutch GreenLeft (anti-Israel and Pro Palestiian - not exactly a neutral source). From after the war untill a few years ago he didn't say anything. His tour is called "Never again for anyone", one attendee likened it to a Ku Klux Klan rally. He praises Hamas and repeatedly attacked the moderate Palestinian Authority. He is not the guy that you want us to believe.

There is no contradiction there at all. Firstly, you already know that being a 'Sovereign State has no bearing upon the matter, and secondly that the Palestinians have every right to resist an illegal occupation in any way that they can, and anyway, we have already shown that it was the Zionists who first started terrorising the Palestinians and Brithish administration. So you example flies in your face further implicating Israel.

Wrong. 1920 April 4–7 Palestine riots : Speeches by Arab religious leaders during the festival, in which traditionally large numbers of Muslims gathered for a religious procession, led to a serious outbreak of violent assaults on the city's Jews, with five Jews killed and hundreds wounded. In response, Jews in Jerusalem organized a self-defense league. That's how it started. Do your homework!

Yeah,... like the Judenrat, were responsible for the poverty in the Ghettos, your excuses are those of a five year old.
The Palestinians lost their jobs largely because Israel forced them off their own land, and occupied it, many of those that remained were subjected to having their homes bulldozed, and orchards rripped up and stolen by Jewish "settlers". We know why Palestinians are unemployed and it has little to do with the Palestinian leadership

22,000 Palestinians were employed in construction, agriculture, manufacturing and service industries, almost all of them lost their jobs because Palestinian leaders banned the practice of working in Israeli settlements, angering Palestinians who depend on this employment. According to Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, 63% of Palestinians oppose PA plans to prosecute Palestinians who work in the settlements. Nice way to treat your people!

What really amazes me about apologists like yourself is that you defend the actions of these "Middle eastern Nazis" with childish lies that are so easy to disprove. You have never woken up to the fact that with cheap cameras and the internet, Israeli censorship is now almost non existent and the world is seeing their crimes in real time.

Prove that my facts are wrong!

 

[senojekips]

You must tell everything not just bits and pieces. Hajo Meyer is a member of the Dutch GreenLeft (anti-Israel and Pro Palestiian - not exactly a neutral source).

No one denies this, your statement is stupid in the extreme, of course he opposes israel that was the whole point of my statement, and In the context of this debate that is a good thing. Did you ever stop to think why a holocaust survivor would become a member of such a group? This fact alone demonstrates the criminality of the Zionist policies and further reinforces my point.

Wrong. 1920 April 4–7 Palestine riots : Speeches by Arab religious leaders during the festival, in which traditionally large numbers of Muslims gathered for a religious procession, led to a serious outbreak of violent assaults on the city's Jews, with five Jews killed and hundreds wounded. In response, Jews in Jerusalem organized a self-defense league. That's how it started. Do your homework!

Well in the description of those riots it is said,

Khalil al-Sakakini witnessed the eruption of violence in the Old City:
"[A] riot broke out, the people began to run about and stones were thrown at the Jews. The shops were closed and there were screams... I saw a Zionist soldier covered in dust and blood.

The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs’ inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.
The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).
The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists’ intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)
In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.

No I'm afraid you've missed the bus again, there was already Jewish terror groups in existence at this time. As you can clearly see, even Jewish people are willing to stand up and defend the Palestinian people against the Zionist atrocities.

22,000 Palestinians were employed in construction, agriculture, manufacturing and service industries, almost all of them lost their jobs because Palestinian leaders banned the practice of working in Israeli settlements, angering Palestinians who depend on this employment. According to Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, 63% of Palestinians oppose PA plans to prosecute Palestinians who work in the settlements. Nice way to treat your people!

Tell me any other country that allows it's citizens to aid and abet their enemy in a time of war?
Had the Israelis not stolen their land they would have had no need of this "work".

Prove that my facts are wrong

I have already done it a dozen times yet you just keep coming back repeating the same old rubbish. e.g. the "Sovereign State" LOL

You see I have history plus video evidence of present atrocities, and the present rulings of the ICJ and UN to back me. What do you have other than Zionist propaganda?

 

[RayManKiller3]

No one denies this, your statement is stupid in the extreme, of course he opposes israel that was the whole point of my statement, and In the context of this debate that is a good thing. Did you ever stop to think why a holocaust survivor would become a member of such a group? This fact alone demonstrates the criminality of the Zionist policies and further reinforces my point.

That don't reinforce your point. There are always sympathizers on both sides. During WW2, there were American sympathizers for Japan and Germany. During War of 1812 there were sympathizes for U.S and Britain. To say somone on the other side agree with you don't mean you are correct.


In order for your point to be reinforced like that would mean majority of the other side disagree with what they are doing. Hell, there are sympathizers for Afghanistan (not many will speak though, especially in U.S as we all know it won't end pretty for them lol).

And I disagree that in this century, that one being occupied must do everything they can to stop occupating forces. Terrorism should be treated with nothing but contempt, as it is now. This is why Palestine do not have the support it needs, because Hamas screws them over (not to mention bad relation with other Arab nations). Turkey do not help Palestinian plight either, with their exaggerated actions on the Flotilla raid incident.

 

[VDKMS]

No I'm afraid you've missed the bus again, there was already Jewish terror groups in existence at this time. As you can clearly see, even Jewish people are willing to stand up and defend the Palestinian people against the Zionist atrocities.

Since when is buying land legally an act of terror??
Part of Palestine's land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. About 80 percent of the Palestinian Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins with no landownership at all. When you buy a home from a homeowner you have the right to expel the people who live in it if they have no legal contract.
The Peel Commission's report (1937) found that Arab complaints about Jewish land acquisition were baseless.

Tell me any other country that allows it's citizens to aid and abet their enemy in a time of war?

What war? There was a peace agreement. The Oslo Accords , remember?

Had the Israelis not stolen their land they would have had no need of this "work".

Silly answer.

I have already done it a dozen times yet you just keep coming back repeating the same old rubbish. e.g. the "Sovereign State" LOL

You haven't proven a thing.
BTW, a "sovereign state" isn't rubbish. It's only rubbish to you because it is a FACT that Israel is one. ( UN , remember)

You see I have history plus video evidence of present atrocities, and the present rulings of the ICJ and UN to back me. What do you have other than Zionist propaganda?

Facts.

On the internet you can find articles and videos pro and contra anything.
Here is one you don't like.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdH0XxDEjG4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdH0XxDEjG4[/ame]

 

[senojekips]

Since when is buying land legally an act of terror??

When it is done with the intent of locking the owners out. This has been judges by the ICJ as "ethnic cleansing" and is illegal. Source: http://www.israellawresourcecenter.org/internationallaw/studyguides/sgil1i.htm

The Peel Commission's report (1937) found that Arab complaints about Jewish land acquisition were baseless.

Well, it just shows how bad the decisions of a commission run in a country 3000 miles away can be, doesn't it. As you read in the statement posted yesterday even Jews admit that there has always been a Zionist plan to "Buy up Palestinian land and lock them out" See Ethnic Cleansing above.

What war? There was a peace agreement. The Oslo Accords , remember?

Israel has never honoured any peace agreements made and has always used then to further steal land and secure previously stolen land. The Palestinians may have been talked into an agreement, but they knew it's purpose, and they knew it couldn't last. They broke no law either Palestinian nor International in forbidding their citizens to aid and abet their enemy.

Silly answer.

Only because you know it's true and can't disprove it.

You haven't proven a thing.
BTW, a "sovereign state" isn't rubbish. It's only rubbish to you because it is a FACT that Israel is one. ( UN , remember)

It is rubbish in the context of this debate as I have shown you that Terra Nullius does not apply in this situation. The land was already occupied, so why do you keep raising it?

On the internet you can find articles and videos pro and contra anything.
Here is one you don't like.

I see no live footage backing a single point you have tried to make. It' all p!ss and wind, another attempt by the Zionists to try and distort history,

And all of the above notwithstanding,... when it's all said and done, no matter what you say, the World's highest Court on International Affairs has deemed it illegal so nothing you say to this end will change the facts. Not to mention Jewish Rabbis, holocaust survivors and organisations within Israel. (B'tselem etc). Your story is a fabrication and clearly shown to be so in the eyes of the world.

 

[VDKMS]

When it is done with the intent of locking the owners out. This has been judges by the ICJ as "ethnic cleansing" and is illegal. Source: http://www.israellawresourcecenter.org/internationallaw/studyguides/sgil1i.htm

Your source also says:
Even though no international convention has been developed to condemn and punish the crime of ethnic cleansing.
And another thing, most owners of the land the jews bought weren't even living there. They lived in Damascus and Cairo. The ones who lived on that land didn't own it.
BTW , the ICJ only provides advisory opinions and your scource gives only their anti-jewish opinion, no facts about etnic cleansing.

Well, it just shows how bad the decisions of a commission run in a country 3000 miles away can be, doesn't it. As you read in the statement posted yesterday even Jews admit that there has always been a Zionist plan to "Buy up Palestinian land and lock them out" See Ethnic Cleansing above.

see my reply above

Israel has never honoured any peace agreements made and has always used then to further steal land and secure previously stolen land. The Palestinians may have been talked into an agreement, but they knew it's purpose, and they knew it couldn't last. They broke no law either Palestinian nor International in forbidding their citizens to aid and abet their enemy.

Fatah Official Says Our Goal Has Never Been Peace
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2HUKphZ38w"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2HUKphZ38w[/ame]

It is rubbish in the context of this debate as I have shown you that Terra Nullius does not apply in this situation. The land was already occupied, so why do you keep raising it?

The land was occupied by the Turks. The allies drove them away and the British got a mandate to administrate it. On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favour of the Partition Plan. The Jews accepted the Arabs rejected. How can you steal land from someone who doesn't want it???

I see no live footage backing a single point you have tried to make. It' all p!ss and wind, another attempt by the Zionists to try and distort history,

UN testimony of Col. Richard Kemp on October 16, 2009 at the UN Human Rights Council Special
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo[/ame]

Palestinian Religious Leader: Muslims Will Rule Entire World
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDiC6KVBZUk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDiC6KVBZUk[/ame]

Reuters - Palestinians Terrorists use UN Ambulance
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRmYYSp0-B8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRmYYSp0-B8[/ame]

Remembering a Canadian murdered by a Palestinian terrorist
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmrUuXk3qRA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmrUuXk3qRA[/ame]

And all of the above notwithstanding,... when it's all said and done, no matter what you say, the World's highest Court on International Affairs has deemed it illegal so nothing you say to this end will change the facts. Not to mention Jewish Rabbis, holocaust survivors and organisations within Israel. (B'tselem etc). Your story is a fabrication and clearly shown to be so in the eyes of the world.

Fact is not one resolution asked for the removal! Why?

 

[senojekips]

Your source also says:
Even though no international convention has been developed to condemn and punish the crime of ethnic cleansing.

Because the term "Ethnic cleansing" is only a recent, however the practice is clearly defined and contravenes a number of previous International laws and covenants including Universal Declaration of Human Rights (10 December 1948).

And another thing, most owners of the land the jews bought weren't even living there. They lived in Damascus and Cairo. The ones who lived on that land didn't own it.

That is exactly the point I made??? This has no bearing upon the judgment that the purchases were illegal as they were part of an admitted plan to ethnically cleanse Palestine an admitted aim of Zionism. Some of the very same people have admitted that the land belongs to the Palestinians.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.""
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

BTW , the ICJ only provides advisory opinions and your scource gives only their anti-jewish opinion, no facts about etnic cleansing.

BS,... try telling that to Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic. All the laws and findings relating to Ethinc Cleansing have been previously posted with sources.

Fatah Official Says Our Goal Has Never Been Peace

Which is hardly surprising, Fatah only came into being in 1959 as a result of similar much earlier declarations by the Israeli's
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

The land was occupied by the Turks. The allies drove them away and the British got a mandate to administrate it. On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favour of the Partition Plan. The Jews accepted the Arabs rejected. How can you steal land from someone who doesn't want it???

They never rejected it because they didn't want it, they rejected it because they did not want only part of what was legitimately all theirs. Exactly as you would reject an offer of only a small part of your possessions if I should just turn up and take them from you.

UN testimony of Col. Richard Kemp on October 16, 2009 at the UN Human Rights Council Special

His personal opinion is clearly flawed as there have been numerous examples given showing that he was clearly wrong in his assessment. These examples include numerous admissions by members of the Israeli defence forces.

Palestinian Religious Leader: Muslims Will Rule Entire World

And exactly who is this nutter. he has about as much influence as you do. Very vocal, but ultimately powerless.

Reuters - Palestinians Terrorists use UN Ambulance

Is this any worse than the Israelis deliberately denying Palestinian ambulances access to wounded women and children in Gaza and Nablus and a dozen other places?[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3rnHouu8j8"]Ambulance denied access invasion - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCWL3UwCv-s"]In The Name Of Humanity - YouTube[/ame]

Remembering a Canadian murdered by a Palestinian terrorist

Remember Rachel Corrie? what about the Irish Noble Peace Prize recipient, Mairead Maguire who was shot and wounded by Israeli troops?

Fact is not one resolution asked for the removal! Why?

Only because they are Vetoed by the US. What about Resolution 3236? That clearly recognises the right of Palestinian return which would in effect preclude the Israeli occupation of their land.

Sorry, but your continued excuses have still not changed any of the findings of either the UN or the ICJ, so how about we get back to the subject of the thread.

 

[VDKMS]

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

Abdul Aziz Shaheen- PA Minister
Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, January 4, 1998
"The Oslo accord was a preface for the Palestinian Authority, and the Palestinian Authority will be a preface for the Palestinian state, which in turn will be a preface for the liberation of the entire Palestinian land."

Imad Faluji, PA cabinet minister, Rally in Lebanon rally, March 3, 2001
The violence "had been planned since Chairman Arafat's return from Camp David..."

IN THE MARCH 1976 issue of Falastin a-Thaura, then the official journal of the Beirut-based PLO, Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen"), PLO spokesman, wrote: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live."

BS,... try telling that to Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic. All the laws and findings relating to Ethinc Cleansing have been previously posted with sources.

They were taken to court with an arrest warrant.

Which is hardly surprising, Fatah only came into being in 1959 as a result of similar much earlier declarations by the Israeli's
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

At the Nuremberg Trials in July 1946, Dieter Wisliceny testified:
"The Mufti (Hajj (Muhamed Effendi) Amin al Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz."

They never rejected it because they didn't want it, they rejected it because they did not want only part of what was legitimately all theirs. Exactly as you would reject an offer of only a small part of your possessions if I should just turn up and take them from you.

The Arabs rejected the plan because it would have forced them to accept the creation of a Jewish state and required some Palestinians to live under "Jewish domination."
Arab League Secretary Azzam Pasha on September 16, 1947.
The Arab world is not in a compromising mood. It's likely, Mr. Horowitz, that your plan is rational and logical, but the fate of nations is not decided by rational logic. Nations never concede; they fight. You won't get anything by peaceful means or compromise. You can, perhaps, get something, but only by the force of your arms. We shall try to defeat you. I am not sure we'll succeed, but we'll try. We were able to drive out the Crusaders, but on the other hand we lost Spain and Persia. It may be that we shall lose Palestine. But it's too late to talk of peaceful solutions.

His personal opinion is clearly flawed as there have been numerous examples given showing that he was clearly wrong in his assessment. These examples include numerous admissions by members of the Israeli defence forces.

It's not flawed, it's the truth , but you won't accept that.

And exactly who is this nutter. he has about as much influence as you do. Very vocal, but ultimately powerless.

Here's another one:
Khaled Mashal's address at the Al-Murabit Mosque in Damascus
The address was delivered following the Friday sermon at the mosque and was aired on Al-Jazeera TV on February 3, 2006.
Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing. Apologize today, before remorse will do you no good. Our nation is moving forwards, and it is in your interest to respect a victorious nation.

Only because they are Vetoed by the US.

There NEVER was a resolution that asked or demanded the removal of the Israeli settlements. Vetoed or not vetoed!

Sorry your continued excuses have still not changed any of the findings of either the UN or the ICJ

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 was rejected by the Arabs !

 

[senojekips]

Once again I see that none of your questions or answers have anything to do with the subject of the thread and are just more obfuscation to hide the fact that Israel is a rogue state and that they have been judged as having committed numerous breaches of International law and have repeatedly ignored the recommendations of the UN.

Abdul Aziz Shaheen- PA Minister
Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, January 4, 1998
"The Oslo accord was a preface for the Palestinian Authority, and the Palestinian Authority will be a preface for the Palestinian state, which in turn will be a preface for the liberation of the entire Palestinian land."
---snip---

None of which disproves my point that the Palestinians were considered the owners of Palestine, which I believe was the original point.

They were taken to court with an arrest warrant.

As will be many Israeli War criminals as soon as the US sickens of supporting a rogue state. One of their many charges will relate to Ethnic Cleansing as it did with the two persons mentioned.

At the Nuremberg Trials in July 1946, Dieter Wisliceny testified:
"The Mufti (Hajj (Muhamed Effendi) Amin al Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz."

He was alive after the war, can you find me a judgement against him, even, in absentia?
Although he supported Hitler's crimes he was in no way responsible for them and could not be even said to be an initiator, and there is not the slightest evidence to show that his talks with the Nazis had any effect on their plans.

The Arabs rejected the plan because it would have forced them to accept the creation of a Jewish state and required some Palestinians to live under "Jewish domination."

Which in itself is an entirely sensible and legitimate reason for them to reject the proposal.

If I were to offer you a token part of what was yours in it's entirety, would you accept my offer

It's not flawed, it's the truth , but you won't accept that.

Because there are dozens of eyewitness accounts to the contrary including thiose of the IRC, Medcines sans Frontieres, and a team of Norwegian Surgeons, not to memntion dozens if mot hundreds of independent persons.

Here's another one:
Khaled Mashal's address at the Al-Murabit Mosque in Damascus
The address was delivered following the Friday sermon at the mosque and was aired on Al-Jazeera TV on February 3, 2006.
Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing. Apologize today, before remorse will do you no good. Our nation is moving forwards, and it is in your interest to respect a victorious nation.

Here's another what? Please show me any connection to the subject of the thread. Anyway the thoughts of independent firebrands trying to incite religious fervour for a war against an Illegal occupation hardly surprises anyone. It's no worse that the Israeli rabbis prior to the Gaza invasion

Speaking Thursday at the Hesder yeshiva in the West Bank settlement of Karnei Shomron , Rontzki referred to Maimonides' discourse on the laws of war. That text quotes a passage from the Book of Jeremiah stating: "Cursed be he that doeth the work of the Lord with a slack hand, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood."

There NEVER was a resolution that asked or demanded the removal of the Israeli settlements. Vetoed or not vetoed!

Which in no way gives them legitimacy, and this is thr main reason why the acceptance of Palestine will be resisted if not vetoed by the USA.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 was rejected by the Arabs !

And why not? It effectively called on them to give up their own land merely so a murderous invader with admitted aims of Ethnic cleansing could live in peace, as I have said several times if you were in the same position you would do the same?

 

[RayManKiller3]

Once again I see that none of your questions or answers have anything to do with the subject of the thread and are just more obfuscation to hide the fact that Israel is a rogue state and that they have been judged as having committed numerous breaches of International law and have repeatedly ignored the recommendations of the UN.

I never knew the U.N ruled the world..... Most U.S citizens don't even like the U.N.

The best way to resolve this conflict is for Palestinians to accept the fact that Israel will be there as a Jewish state, so that way we can move forward.

I already stated what actions that is best for Palestinians if they truely want a state in todays world. The only way for them to get a state without negotiating with Israel, is if something radical happens that turn the world against Israel. U.S is for Israel and will not agree in any way with a resolution that removes Israel.