How do we deal with Pirate attacks?

Sometimes the answer is violence and this is probably another case where it is. If you manage to get some pirates, find out where they're from and flatten it. Piracy would end overnight.
 
Looks like this is developing into a well balanced discussion :wink:

So would you support levelling parts of Los Angeles because it is lawless? You should get the drug pushers (except the top dogs in the posh parts) so no matter about the innocent women and children.
 
If you kept the casualties under control. It might.
The problem is always the ones that inflict huge casualties at a level that makes justifying the action difficult.
But crime in Los Angeles is rather contained. If they were sending speed boats to raid maritime traffic coming into California, then you'll have a comparison that makes sense.
 
perseus said:
Looks like this is developing into a well balanced discussion :wink:

So would you support levelling parts of Los Angeles because it is lawless? You should get the drug pushers (except the top dogs in the posh parts) so no matter about the innocent women and children.
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I´m sorry, did you just compare down town LA to Somalia??

The legalsystems in western democracies might not be perfect, but dude, lawless?
Have you ever set foot anywhere near the african continent?
 
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No but I have in LA and some parts could do with a clearout, don't forget such places ultimately affect deaths and lawlessness in Columbia etc. In LA and Somalia I expect 90% of people would be innocent of major involvement in serious crime

Here is another view

There are ways that navies from around the world can plaster over the problems of Somalia but as long as a state with grinding poverty, hunger, no law enforcement and no effective government sits beside a rich trading route, piracy will continue.



The outside world has for too long seen Somalia only in terms of threats to their own security. Targeted missiles and interventions have been used to remove threatening individuals or groups but there has been no serious engagement with the political and developmental problems that allow those threats to take root.
If there is a silver lining to the piracy issue it may be that a deeper, broader and more imaginative engagement with Somalia develops.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8001183.stm
 
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MontyB said:
Well I think the answer is fairly simple, place an exclusion zone around Somalia and sink any vessels found outside it.

If that fails shrink the zone until it does work even if it means sinking any vessel leaving a Somali port hell I dont care if their ports and coastal villages are attacked in the end they will get the idea and stop.
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If some country ever decides to hire my and meet my conditions, your get the first 3 gunboats I recieve :)
 
Perseus, there are some things that will never work in some parts of the world.
Afghanistan will never become a real country with a central government that functions.
Neither will Somalia.
Korea will never truly think globally. Not a damned thing in the world will change that.
Some things you just can't change.
Somalia will be a hole, no matter what you do.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
Perseus, there are some things that will never work in some parts of the world.
Afghanistan will never become a real country with a central government that functions.
Neither will Somalia.
Korea will never truly think globally. Not a damned thing in the world will change that.
Some things you just can't change.
Somalia will be a hole, no matter what you do.
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And the truth was just posted by 13th redneck.
 
MontyB said:
They tried this and it failed because the Somali's didn't want it I see no good reason to try again.
If in the future they decide they want to build a stable country then all they have to do is prove it and take the first steps themselves, I am sure people will be willing to help them out but right now it is a lawless wasteland that sorely needs napalming and forgetting.
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Been to the East Of Africa? Does not sound like, really: "They decide" and "prove it" do not match with the social layout there, I am afraid.

OTOH, UN has done nation/state building before, why not here?: Germany (not strictly UN then), Haiti (everything there is UN, from the top down), Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan (latter maybe not the best example)

Rattler
 
the_13th_redneck said:
If you kept the casualties under control. It might.
The problem is always the ones that inflict huge casualties at a level that makes justifying the action difficult.
But crime in Los Angeles is rather contained. If they were sending speed boats to raid maritime traffic coming into California, then you'll have a comparison that makes sense.
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A Nuke really would take care of that... :horsie:

Rattler
 
rattler said:
A Nuke really would take care of that... :horsie:

Rattler
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I agree usually agree that all problems can be solved with the proper ammount of high explosive, but in this case I think a nuke would be iinadaquate. I'm thinking more down the line of each nations navy doing its job.
Just in case sombody wonders what that job is, that job is to secure safe sea lanes, and to protect that nations people, property, and intrests.
 
I suspect the Christians thought the Vikings could never be civilised, same with the Romans attitude of Germanic Tribes. When the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest the Germans did things to the prisoners that turned the hardened legions stomachs after finding their comrades remains.

What became of the Germanic tribes, well some anyway?
 
rattler said:
Been to the East Of Africa? Does not sound like, really: "They decide" and "prove it" do not match with the social layout there, I am afraid.

OTOH, UN has done nation/state building before, why not here?: Germany (not strictly UN then), Haiti (everything there is UN, from the top down), Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan (latter maybe not the best example)

Rattler
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The UN has tried Operation Restore Hope I&II. Even the UN decided to unass the AO. That with a multinational military force in place.
 
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Having not read much in this thread and wanting to hurriedly get my two cents in and go out for the evening, I've been happy with Obama's crackdown on the pirates; it shows that he is NOT soft on terrorism or has a weak foreign policy. He's shown that he can handle serious situations without starting wars.
 
Small contained incident by criminals (Pirates) not by terrorists. The fact is it was a criminal hostage taking not a strictly terrorist act conducted by individuals from a failed state. Not by terrorists or goverment sponsered group or troops. So not much of a foriegn policy coup IMHO.
 
wolfen said:
I agree usually agree that all problems can be solved with the proper ammount of high explosive, but in this case I think a nuke would be iinadaquate. I'm thinking more down the line of each nations navy doing its job.
Just in case sombody wonders what that job is, that job is to secure safe sea lanes, and to protect that nations people, property, and intrests.
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While straightforward meant sarcastic, in this case I was refering to the L.A. or whatever city criminality mentioned.

As for piracy, view my comments earlier in the thread.

Of cause I agree fully with you if we change the nuke discussion to that subject.

Rattler
 
perseus said:
I suspect the Christians thought the Vikings could never be civilised, same with the Romans attitude of Germanic Tribes. When the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest the Germans did things to the prisoners that turned the hardened legions stomachs after finding their comrades remains.

What became of the Germanic tribes, well some anyway?
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Time solved that one alone. Not nation building.
But you're right, I should have put that in a better way.
And those folks lived in proximity to civilization and traded with them often enough for changes to happen from the inside. If there's going to be change, it's got to happen by them. If you show up as foreigners, that one fact itself is enough to turn everyone against you.
Your idea of changing their way of life radically will not work. They've got to be motivated to do it themselves. There's a few ways to go about doing that but sending them tons of aid will just reduce them to another sub-Saharan Africa - one that simply sits back, does nothing and no longer begs but demands endless aid.

Both the Germanic tribes and the Vikings eventually came around and were influenced by the people they fought. The Afghans haven't actually managed to do this despite having fought against the Indians and other foreigners. So it may actually be a rather different case.
It's like this in a way.
People expect a country that has pretty much become a developed country to have a sort of mentality that is more global, more open and more tolerant. The funny thing is, both South Korea and Japan are extremely xenophobic and racist. But a poorer country like Indonesia is far less so. If there is a kid in either country who is half white half local, in Korea at least it would be a bit of a "scandal." In Indonesia, it's not.
Things don't work very predictably.
 
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perseus said:
I suspect the Christians thought the Vikings could never be civilised, same with the Romans attitude of Germanic Tribes. When the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest the Germans did things to the prisoners that turned the hardened legions stomachs after finding their comrades remains.

What became of the Germanic tribes, well some anyway?
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Were still around (Germanic Tribes) were just a little more civilized now days, or so the govt thinks.
 
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