Gunman kills 13 in New York siege

Agreed. (Gasp!!!) I think one of the things that really helps out the gun-toters is the idea that this is the internet... Can anyone really say whether or not they would shoot someone without actually being face with the situation? We will never know. Besides, how can you carry a machine gun efficiently?


I think that there are some here that not only could answer that but in fact have had to answer that very question at some point in their career. Might want to increase your situational and enviromental awarness as to exactly what type of site you are on. This ain't college students for a utopian society . org.
 
Certainly the military must use machine guns and other effective weapons to ensure security for our nation, and I'm fine with that... But outside combat with dangerous adversaries, what does the guy down the street need an M-16 for? You can't conceal-carry an M-16, so it absolutely destroys the concept of concealed carry... And do you really think people are going to react favorably to someone walking around with one?



I know what site I'm on, and I realize that's the reason that some people treat me and a few others the way they do. And although it saddens me, I have accepted it and risen above it.
 
Agreed. (Gasp!!!) I think one of the things that really helps out the gun-toters is the idea that this is the internet... Can anyone really say whether or not they would shoot someone without actually being face with the situation? We will never know. Besides, how can you carry a machine gun efficiently?


Thats what I was addressing.
 
Considering that there is no real way to prove how many crimes have been prevented with guns (guns held by ordinary citizens), I don't think a generalization really matters much anyway.
 
No. You are on a military site with a good number of combat veterans. You made a statement that "Can one really say." and alluded to the internet. Your statement was a broad brush and not relevant to this particular site in that many have had to make that decision. Then you chose to split hairs.
 
But I'm making the case for those who DON'T have military experience... There are many more people who have NOT served in the military than who HAVE served in the military. Once again, one corner of the globe does NOT equate to everyone... It's that closed-mindedness that's responsible for a lot of the problems in the world today. Just because it's not true for 1,000 people doesn't mean it's not true for the rest of the billions of people in this world.
 
I wasn't expecting people to think I was ignorant enough to assume that someone with combat experience WOULDN'T be faced with a decision like that.............
 
Once again, Perseus has the graph of the day. It shows a DIRECT correlation between firearm ownership and firearm-related fatalities. Want to limit firearm fatalities? Limit firearms.

Again the graph shown by Perseus is seriously flawed. As I have stated many times before, these gun control people lump together those shootings in legal self defence and those killed due to gangs fighting over drugs and turf wars. Firearms in UK are seriously restricted, handguns are banned yet gang members are getting hold of them as well as selective fire smgs. You can ban guns totally, but it doesnt stop criminals getting hold of them. Thats a fact of life.

As for Kenneshaw, the mandatory gun ownership is a violation of my constitutional rights. It does not say, "Thou Shalt Bear Arms," but it gives me the right to do so if I so please. Don't force my rights on me, if you do then it's not a right anymore.

As far as I am aware, those who do not wish to own a firearm in Kenneshaw for various reasons are not obliged to do so. Personally, if I could I'd move to Kenneshaw in a heart beat if it meant my family would be safe from criminals.

It seems very strange to me that people ignore the evidence of towns like Kenneshaw where firearms are easily obtainable and the extremely low crime rate, and cling to the belief that banning guns or seriously restrict gun ownership will reduce crime, the fact is, it doesnt. This is exactly what is being shown today in South Africa.

Considering that there is no real way to prove how many crimes have been prevented with guns (guns held by ordinary citizens), I don't think a generalization really matters much anyway.

As it happens I have stopped two crimes with my legally held firearm:-
One was an attempted personal attack on myself, drawing my 45 stopped the attack in its tracks.

Secondly my next door neighbour was a young widow with a very young daughter, to cut a very long story short I arrested two young thugs who were attempting to break into her home, whiloe she and her daughter were there. On carrying out a search of the thugs assisted by my son, they were both found to be carrying knives with blades at least 6 inches long. They werent carrying knives to clean their finger nails. I dread to think what could have happened to those two ladies if I hadnt stopped the thugs, possibly rape and murdered, which is all too evident in South Africa today.

In both incidents, I thankfully never had to fire a shot. However, if I was forced to fire I would have done so without hesitation.

I wonder why no one has taken up my offer of crime scene photographs where unarmed victims were murdered in cold blood?
 
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Interesting. Nearly everyone owns rifles or guns around these parts, but hunting purposes.
 
Interesting. Nearly everyone owns rifles or guns around these parts, but hunting purposes.
Owning firearms which have a legitimate use is vastly different to some of these fantasy queens who just have to have the biggest meanest firearm to make then feel "macho", even though they live in the city and there is not an edible animal within 100 miles.

There are also collectors and those who genuinely need firearms for other purposes, (vermin control etc), but the people that worry me are those who think they are some sort of 21st century "cowboy" or "mob hitman" in waiting. And believe me, they are out there, not to mention everyday social misfits, nutters and the seriously mentally deranged.

It really makes you feel safe doesn't it?
 
Again the graph shown by Perseus is seriously flawed. As I have stated many times before, these gun control people lump together those shootings in legal self defence and those killed due to gangs fighting over drugs and turf wars. Firearms in UK are seriously restricted, handguns are banned yet gang members are getting hold of them as well as selective fire smgs. You can ban guns totally, but it doesnt stop criminals getting hold of them. Thats a fact of life.
BritinAfrica, correct me if I'm wrong here, but has anyone, in the last 10 gun control debates that have been started here, actually said ANYTHING positive about banning guns totally? NO!! No one has said ANYTHING about banning guns altogether; throwing that argument completely out the window.


As far as I am aware, those who do not wish to own a firearm in Kenneshaw for various reasons are not obliged to do so. Personally, if I could I'd move to Kenneshaw in a heart beat if it meant my family would be safe from criminals.

It seems very strange to me that people ignore the evidence of towns like Kenneshaw where firearms are easily obtainable and the extremely low crime rate, and cling to the belief that banning guns or seriously restrict gun ownership will reduce crime, the fact is, it doesnt. This is exactly what is being shown today in South Africa.
Because, as I've said to other members before, what happens in one small corner of a state does NOT indicate the situation for the entire country... If that were the case, I could say racism is still open and thriving in the world because of a few back woods towns in Tennessee... But that's not the case for the vast, overwhelming majority, is it? Just like gun crime in the United States as a whole is increasing, regardless of stricter gun control laws.

I wonder why no one has taken up my offer of crime scene photographs where unarmed victims were murdered in cold blood?
Because this forum is open to all ages, and I highly doubt Redleg would appreciate you putting those types of graphic images up.
 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If these figures are to be believed, it would seem as if the problem could be greatly curtailed by ensuring better enforcement and punishment of suppliers.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Guns in the Wrong Hands[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Americans for Gun Safety produced a 2003 report that reveals that 20 of the nation’s 22 national gun laws are not enforced. According to U.S. Department of Justice data (FY 2000-2002), only 2% of federal gun crimes were actually prosecuted. Eighty-five percent of cases prosecuted relate to street criminals in possession of firearms. Ignored are laws intended to punish illegal gun trafficking, firearm theft, corrupt gun dealers, lying on a criminal background check form, obliterating firearm serial numbers, selling guns to minors and possessing a gun in a school zone. To access The Enforcement Gap: Federal Gun Laws Ignored, visit http://w3.agsfoundation.com/. For a state-by-state chart of gun crimes (FY 2000-2002), click here.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Studies show that 1 percent of gun stores sell the weapons traced to 57 percent of gun crimes. According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), the dealer that armed the DC area sniper is among this small group of problem gun dealers that "supply the suppliers" who funnel guns to the nation's criminals. (Between 1997 and 2001, guns sold by this dealer were involved in 52 crimes, including homicides, kidnappings and assaults. Still open today, it also can't account for 238 guns or say whether they were stolen, lost or sold, or if their buyers underwent felony-background checks.) As a result, these few gun dealers have a vastly disproportionate impact on public safety. The ATF can recognize such dealers based on: (1) guns stolen from inventory; (2) missing federal sales records, needed by police to solve crimes; (3) having 10 weapons a year traced to crimes; (4) frequently selling multiple guns to individual buyers; and (5) short times between gun sales and their involvement in crimes. Yet ATF enforcement is weak due to a lack of Congressional support and resources. For more details, click here.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Terrorists have purchased firearms at gun shows, where unlicensed sellers are not currently required to conduct background checks or to ask for identification. According to the Middle East Intelligence Report, for example, a Hezbollah member was arrested in November 2000, after a nine-month investigation by the FBI's counter-terrorism unit. Ali Boumelhem was later convicted on seven counts of weapons charges and conspiracy to ship weapons and ammunition to Lebanon. Federal agents had observed Boumelhem, a resident of Detroit and Beirut, travel to Michigan gun shows and buy gun parts and ammunition for shipment overseas. Boumelhem was prohibited from legally purchasing guns as gun stores because he was a convicted felon. Additional cases involve a Pakistani national with an expired (1988) student visa; a Lebanese native and Hamas member with numerous felony convictions; and a supporter of the Irish Republican Army. (USA Today, Wednesday, November 28, 2001 Americans for Gun Safety)[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]According to Americans for Gun Safety (December 2002), gun theft is most likely in states without laws requiring safe storage of firearms in the home and where there are large numbers of gun owners and relatively high crime rates. Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars, most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage. To access "Stolen Guns: Arming the Enemy" visit www.agsfoundation.com.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The American Medical Association reports that between 36% and 50% of male eleventh graders believe that they could easily get a gun if they wanted one. [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In 1998-99 academic year, 3,523 students were expelled for bringing a firearm to school. This is a decrease from the 5,724 students expelled in 1996-97 for bringing a firearm to school. (U.S. Department of Education, October 2000) [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]According to a report by the Joshephson Institute of Ethics (2000 Report Card: Report #1), 60% of high school and 31% of middle school boys said they could get a gun if they wanted to (April, 2001).[/FONT]
[/FONT]
http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/statistics.htm
 
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