The Other Guy
Spam King
I marked that check. The government should stay out. No law should be enacted banning it, thus allowing it.
Government Laws on Marriage
Chukpike
Banned
The Government Has No Right To Say Who Someone Can or Can't Marry
So, even though you voted on this you believe the government has the right to say who can get married. You do want it both ways.
senojekips
Active member
So, you feel that all things that are not specifically banned, are automatically allowed.
Not even vaguely true!
For the meantime, just Google, "not specifically banned" law.
As has been stated previously, all of these "Rights" quoted in support of homosexual marriage are not "Rights" at all, but merely the unrealistic expectations of a minority, which is a cat of a completely different colour.
The Other Guy
Spam King
Did I say that?
senojekips
Active member
Yep!...I guess you did. Unless of course you are posting in some language other than English
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Rob Henderson
Banned
So you're telling me marriage is a privilege? That's ridiculous! When the government can tell you what you can and cannot do, it's time for a rebellion. This is insane. The government cannot tell you who to marry. That's completely unfair, and quite honestly, the only reason you're saying that it IS a privilege is because it suits your case.
senojekips
Active member
Rob, I never said it was a "privilege", I just stated the facts, but having said that, Yes,.. I suppose it is a privilege, if it were not, we would not be debating homosexual marriage would we?
If you think that is not the case, tell me, one thing that I said that is not true regarding the laws regarding whom you may marry and whom you may not. I'm not interested in what you think "should" be the case, only the facts.
I "should" have been born rich and famous, but it was not to be. I don't whine about it, nor threaten Rebellion against the State.
For a man of your age and education, naivete astounds me. Where has it ever been said said that life was going to be FAIR,... it's definitely not,... and never will be, you'd better get used to it. You would do well to read Bill Gates, Eleven Rules of Life. http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/read_billgates.html
Of course it suits my case to tell you the facts, why should I ignore the facts, or worse, tell lies to support your unrealistic expectations?
Somewhere in the course of growing up, you have missed at least two vital truths.
"Life is not fair"
"Freedom does not give you the right to just do as you wish"
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Rob Henderson
Banned
You should not have to qualify to marry someone (other than that person's personal qualifications).
But see, that's what this debate is about... With your logic, you say I can't argue, because it's the law... But I say I'm allowed to argue with something I don't agree with. I think it SHOULD be another way. Being on the side of the law doesn't make it the RIGHT side. The law is not quite applicable in debates, because it's an opinion on both sides. You're telling me that because it's the law, I should just back down and accept it? I should call you right because you happen to agree with what the law says?senojekips said:
But you can help whether you are rich and famous. That's something you can attain. The government doesn't help people become rich and famous; you do it on your own. But the government also doesn't try and STOP you from becoming rich and famous... It's all left completely up to the individual. Such should be the case with marriage. I'm not saying that gays are going to rise up and have a rebellion against the state, I'm saying that they should be allowed to fight for what they want same as anyone else. Just because YOU don't like them (or their beliefs) doesn't give you the right or ANYONE ELSE the right to dictate their lives for them!senojekips said:
Seno, if you don't like something, and it's in your power to fight and change it, then you can. I can't change the fact that I'm Irish, that's in my blood, but by Christ if I was an immigrant back in the 1900s, I would have DAMNED sure fought for equal jobs, equal pay, etc. Gays can change whether or not they can marry other gay people, that's something that they (along with other accepting, open-minded people) can change.senojekips said:
Where did I say that it was the facts? I just said that you were saying that something was an opinion because it suited your case. That's not a fact... It's an opinion. Just like MY opinion is JUST an opinion. I've missed no truths, and I'm not terribly naive...senojekips said:
senojekips
Active member
But unfortunately you do. It's like paying tax or any other disagreeable thing, there are things (many of them ) with which we may not agree, but it has been decided by the majority that that is how they want the law framed.
It does make it right when it is the wish of the majority. If being on the side of the law does not make it right, I can tell you quite emphatically that NOT being on the side of the law will be viewed far worse when you end up before the judge.
You may do whatever you like, but if you do that which is against the law, you will suffer the consequences. The only difference here being that I have decided to accept and obey the law, as voted by the people, you feel that you should not have to, and funnily enough, you are not on your own,... the prisons are full of people who think that the law should not apply to them. You may think what you like, but don't be surprised if it comes back in your face.
I said BORN rich and famous. so I wouldn't have to go through all the rigamarole of working for a living like the majority of people. My whole point being about the pointlessness of wishing for things that are not to be, and saying it should be so. Unfortunately it is NOT, and never will be.
Well,.. here on Earth the law DOES tell you what you can and cannot do, society makes the rules. If you know a place where it isn't so, you'd better go there.
Why would i wish to try and overturn the wishes of the majority just to suit my own selfish desires? That's what you would be asking me to do. This has already been put to the people and decided, Democracy being what it is, that means you must accept it, or pay the price of being an outcast.
Well, you've completely dismissed Democracy and the Law of the land, I'd say that's a pretty good display of naivete for a start.
I said it was the facts because I have gone to the bother of looking up my sources and you have never been able to discredit them or offer a plausible alternative. All you can come up with is, it should be so, I should be allowed to, and the fact is, that it is not so by the vote of the majority, that's the way we work in an Australian democracy, and I'm pretty sure it was the case in the USA last time I was there.
(1) You are willing to sacrifice democratic ideals to get what you want.
(2) You talk of "Rebellion" when you can't legally get your own way.
I'll listen to any new point you can raise in favour of your argument but I refuse to keep going over the past points as you have no answer for any of them, other than it should be so... It's not! if it were, we would not be debating this.
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Rob Henderson
Banned
No... It just means a majority of the people have the same opinion you do. It does nothing to solidify the factuality of the issue at hand.
So now you're comparing anyone who has a different opinion a criminal? Look, you're not in the majority on every issue I'm sure... And you have a different opinion on some of those things. And your opinion is just as valid and correct as those of the majority, but you are not WRONG for going against the majority... It's simply the way you feel about it. I'm not saying that just because Bob thinks molestation is okay, then it should be okay... I'm simply saying that Bob is entitled to his opinion, however misconstrued it may be. By the same token, I am not WRONG about my views on this particular issue, just like you are not any more RIGHT on it.senojekips said:
Tell that to MLK, or Sojourner Truth, or Harriet Tubbman, or Sandra Day O'Connor, or anyone else who dared to speak out against the majority... Change happens Spike... NOTHING is set in stone.senojekips said:
True, but sometimes society's mind can change... Again, referring to the black civil rights movement, or women's suffrage.senojekips said:
Because in this particular case, it doesn't affect you in any way... Why WOULDN'T you? What does it matter to you personally who marries who? Again, as I said in the previous post. You don't HAVE to accept it.senojekips said:
Well you've completely dismissed a written definition of a word earlier in the argument... I suppose I could call you naive then....senojekips said:
Again... There are no facts in this particular issue... There is not defining right and wrong... 2+2=5 is WRONG, because it's been decided that that is not correct... Two people getting married isn't WRONG per say, because it's based on the opinion that the majority of the people decided on... Just like the majority of the people in Massachusetts decided that it was RIGHT to allow homosexuals to marry. That doesn't mean the people in MASS. are right, nor does it mean the people in CALI. are wrong. It's a matter of personal opinion that varies throughout the country, state, and local population. THAT'S why I don't believe it should be decided by anyone other than the people who are getting married at the time...
1... Seno... I love ya man, I'm trying to tell you this as nicely as I can... I DON'T GIVE A FLYING F**K WHO THEY MARRY! It's not my own way, it's the idea that I don't support it. If it doesn't affect me, why should I have a say in it? I think people who are against homosexual marriage are jerks. Hypocritical jerks who interject their own views into other people's lives because it "conflicts with their morals" and then turn around and get pissy when gay people want to get married because they're "shoving their sexuality down their throats."
2.. I don't talk of rebellion... I talk of standing up for something you believe in... There's a large difference between the two... I don't think I've ever used the word rebellion.
I have no new points, and quite honestly, you have no answer as to why it should NOT be so, aside from the fact that more people in California were on your side than were on my side...
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senojekips
Active member
It doesn't affect me if others have criminal acts done against them either, but I don't support those acts based on that fact. Like I've said earlier the majority wish to live in a socialised and civilised world. What you are advocating is that anyone can break the law, or commit antisocial acts, and so long as it doesn't affect you personally, you don't care? well, once again your views are in the minority, and the rest of the world will move on without you.
What word? This is about Democracy and the Law of the land, which is more than a "word"
BS... If there are no facts why is there a dispute if there are no facts, there is no debate
And society and the law doesn't give a.... about your ideas, you get the idea? The rules are there, ignore them at your peril.
Memory problems too it seems.
That is the answer, we live in a democracy and it appears that this is not good enough for you.
Too Bad! Your views are not supported by the majority, P!ss into the wind if you feel you must, just don't whinge to me that it's not very pleasant.
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Rob Henderson
Banned
Seno, you've said the same things over and over. That I should stop whining and complaining and pissing into the wind because the majority of people in some of the states have said that they don't support gay marriage... And that's it... Quite honestly, you're not even a citizen of the United States... If anything, I should be arguing with Chukpike and Chukpike alone. I don't care what the rest of the United States (as most of the world is not opposed to homosexual marriage/civil unions) says, because the rest of the WORLD has already moved on to be accepting of homosexuality. In fact... New Zealand has no laws against homosexuality, and supports civil unions... INTERESTING, the majority of YOUR people seem to be against you... Perhaps you should stop pissing into the wind of other countries and whine about your own...
Now see, that's where your wrong, society does care about my views, because the old man will die soon, and my vote will replace it... And the stubbornness and conservative nature of this country will slowly start to deteriorate as the country realizes there are more important things to worry about than who is marrying whom.
Again, democracy only "served" in a few states... In the other states, it was the other way around... Was democracy still served? Or is it only because it suits your case that you are suddenly a Freedom Fighter?
Actually, my views are supported by the majority of the WORLD... I'd rather be in touch with the world than the United States... Considering the fact that you view the majority as the most important thing in the world.... YOU should stop pissing into the wind.
Now see, that's where your wrong, society does care about my views, because the old man will die soon, and my vote will replace it... And the stubbornness and conservative nature of this country will slowly start to deteriorate as the country realizes there are more important things to worry about than who is marrying whom.
Again, democracy only "served" in a few states... In the other states, it was the other way around... Was democracy still served? Or is it only because it suits your case that you are suddenly a Freedom Fighter?
Actually, my views are supported by the majority of the WORLD... I'd rather be in touch with the world than the United States... Considering the fact that you view the majority as the most important thing in the world.... YOU should stop pissing into the wind.
Chukpike
Banned
Actually, my views are supported by the majority of the WORLD
Rob, no they are not. Here is a list of your world Majority that supports Homosexual Marriage.
Marriage, as defined by civil law, is currently available to same-sex couples in seven countries. In the United States, same-sex couples can marry in some jurisdictions, but their unions are not recognized nationally. The Netherlands was the first country to legalize same-sex marriage in 2001. Same-sex marriages are also legal in Belgium, Spain, Canada, South Africa, Norway and Nepal. Source Wikipedia.
Still not using sources to support your claims. Try to learn that making unsubstantiated claims will hurt your arguments.
I will let Seno address how New Zealand handles homosexual marriage, but as you can see it does not appear to be allowed.
Have a nice day!:smile:
Rob Henderson
Banned
But you see Chukpike, if you read the post correctly... I stated marriages/civil unions. And from your same source, there is a chart that denotes who has laws against same sex marriages and civil unions...
By the way, there were no unsubstantiated claims... Only waiting on folks to not believe me like you before I post a source. If a source is asked, then I'll give it, but most of the people on here know me well enough to know that I DON'T make unsubstantiated claims. No laws AGAINST marriages or homosexual marriages in MORE than 7 countries, and quite honestly, I'm not worried about Africa before you bring them up... I'm referring to the modernized, evolved countries of the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world
And here is the article stating that New Zealand does allow civil unions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_New_Zealand
By the way, there were no unsubstantiated claims... Only waiting on folks to not believe me like you before I post a source. If a source is asked, then I'll give it, but most of the people on here know me well enough to know that I DON'T make unsubstantiated claims. No laws AGAINST marriages or homosexual marriages in MORE than 7 countries, and quite honestly, I'm not worried about Africa before you bring them up... I'm referring to the modernized, evolved countries of the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world
And here is the article stating that New Zealand does allow civil unions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_New_Zealand
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senojekips
Active member
The reason for this being that I have successfully shown why all of your arguments are false, ranging from unrealistic expectations to complete denial of documented facts. Answers that normally would have satisfied any person above the mental age of 5 years, yet you go on. That's why i've said the same things over and over,... but no more.
I'll leave you cocooned in your own tiny dream world.
Oh, and Chukpike, I'm Australian, not a Kiwi, we Aussies are far better lookin'. I have no idea what their laws are on this subject.
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Rob Henderson
Banned
A tiny dream world that covers almost the entire European continent AS WELL as New Zealand... Funny thing.
Chukpike
Banned
Sorry, I only referenced New Zealand because that was from Rob's post.
Having been to both New Zealand and Australia, I will defer to you as who is better looking. I enjoyed my time in both countries.
Chukpike
Banned
"Actually, my views are supported by the majority of the WORLD"
Quote Rob Henderson
And now the disclaimer
"I'm referring to the modernized, evolved countries of the world."
Quote Rob Henderson
As dead set against what you consider discrimination it is interesting that you would leave out over half of the world. Sounds a little like discrimination on your part.
Out of the 55 countries in the chart listed as Europe only 22 recognise either marriage and/or partnerships. Not quite the majority you make it out to be. While I counted Italy as recognised per your chart, reading further I found that it is symbolic, and Italy does not give benefits to homosexual unions.
I know you were hoping I wouldn't read your source. Like I said, you do yourself a disservice when making claims not supported with facts.
I do not see sexual preference as a right, to me it is a choice. Note the word preference which is used often to describe same sex relationships.
senojekips
Active member
Your humble apology is noted and accepted
.Don't argue any further, denial, lies and misrepresentation of the facts is an artform much in use by the homos and their supporters. You have demonstrated the validity of your argument quite adequately. You have won, on virtually every point.
You will notice how this subject has been studiously ignored by virtually everyone else on the Forum, even the Poll supports your argument (although I would suggest in all fairness it is far too small in cross section to be an accurate indication)
Rob Henderson
Banned
It's the half of the world that would cut off a man's hand for stealing... I don't know if you can call that justice, though getting to know you two better, you might rather enjoy that form of "law."
But there are no laws AGAINST homosexuality either... That's what I have the problem with... They don't have to make a law making it illegal NOT to marry a homosexual couple, just leave it up to the people that the marriage involves.Chukpike said:
Yes, that's it... I was hoping you wouldn't read my source. Of course... That's why I posted it...
I'm going to spell this out for both you and senojekips as clearly as I possibly can...
Pay close attention, the both of you. In this debate, there are no facts. There are only opinions. There is either the opinion of being for homosexuality or being against it. There are no facts that prove homosexuality wrong, and there are no facts that prove homosexuality right. There are only opinions as to what you believe. You cannot prove me wrong, you cannot prove me right; you cannot prove yourselves right, and I cannot prove you wrong. There is no possible way to "win" this argument, because it is simply a matter of opinions... It's the same case with religion... You can't argue religion because it's a matter of opinions.
Senojekips... In addition to the above statement, I would reiterate it to you in response to your last post... Few things first though... Don't talk about me like I'm some outcast for supporting the idea of living and letting live... I'm not lying, I'm not misinterpreting the "facts" (even though there are no facts in this argument) and what am I denying? Chukpike and yourself have both argued just as good a point as I have, no better, no worse... Neither you nor he have "won" this argument, as you continue to have nothing that can prove me wrong other than the law of a few states, which is just an interpretation (aka opinion). This subject is not up for question for many of the members on this forum because, aside from the fact that many of the members here don't post in this particular section, most of the members of this forum are either active duty, retired, reserves, or civilian wanna-be military folk. This forum, this entire forum, has a conservative lean to it, no matter what... You are no exception... Anything that is considered mildly liberal or even moderate is immediately attacked by the majority of this forum, and most eventually whither down and the thread becomes different ways to say "I agree"... Now, when a person like me comes along, with just as valid a point as the next Tom, Dick, or Harry, you get two or three of you to team up and try to break me down. Two people saying the same thing is more scary than one, after all. But I've stood to it. You all cannot prove my point wrong, like I said before, and so you try to find different ways to attempt it, but I've rebuked every single one... You can't show me one place where you've argued your points better than I have. Neither side has won/will win this debate.
And I apologize... I get you and MontyB mixed up some times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Australia
Australia supports Civil Partnerships as well, though...
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