Favorite Military Leaders
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I am of the opinion that while a very good commander Guderian was the writer of his own history and as such made himself out to be far better than he actually was.
If you want to pat any Germans on the back for Blitzkrieg you have to look back to the reconstruction of the German military in the early 1920s, to men like General Hans von Seeckt, armour tactician Ernst Volckheim and air tactician Helmut Wilberg who essentially laid the foundations of the Wehrmacht and combined operations through to the end of WW2.
As for my favourite General I will pick a Kiwi in the form of major general Howard Karl Kippenberger, he served in WW1 as an under-aged soldier and led elements of the New Zealand 2nd Division during WW2 until he lost both his feet at Monte Cassino...
CairnCross
Active member
I love this person as a great Military leader (356 – 323 BC) As King of Macedonia, he established an Empire from the Ionian Sea to the Himalayas in India. Alexander the Great remained undefeated in battle.
MarshalManstein1
New Member
Generalfeldmarschall Manstein( pretty obvious) but for a reason. He is arguably one of the most brilliant military minds that had ever existed. His Manstein plan and the invasion of France beats 9/10 of all military minds because France fell in just 6 weeks. Next, he breached the world’s most heavily fortified city in the Siege of Sevastopol. He is also famous for the backhand blow in the Third Battle of Kharkov. He would have helped win Stalingrad and Kursk and the Dneiper if it weren’t for Hitler’s stupidity. This all combined beats 98/100 of all military minds. Finally, his book Verolene Siege(Lost Victories) is a must read and Manstein is objective and not biased in this autobiography. My second choice would be Generaloberst Heinz Guderian( who actually didn’t invent Blitzkrieag as it has been around since the Ancient Chinese) because of his mastery of the Battlefield. My favorite Russian is Marshal Georgy Zhukov for his contributions in Stalingrad and the collapse of Generalfeldmarschall Paulus’ army. Also, a lot of the American and British Generals are overrated so my favorites would be Eisenhower and William Slim.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Manstein was an excellent leader and strategist but I believe he was wrong in his accessment that Kursk could be won using the limited plan they had for the battle in fact its lack of vision and rather timid outlook made it the Verdun of the Eastern front.
Sadly Hitler was right in sacrificing the 6th Army at Stalingrad to protect the forces withdrawing from the Caucuses and realistically by the time Hoths relief force were within striking range it was too weak to have broken out anyway.
Manstein like many Generals was a shameless self promoters and after the war it was easy to write flourishing accounts of what should have happened especially since you had a ready scapegoat for failure in Hitler who was not going to argue back.
MarshalManstein1
New Member
I disagree with your belief with Kursk. I believe that it could be won after the Battle of Prokorovkha if Hitler didn’t wait and he should have kept his tanks at Kursk instead of moving it to Italy. Also, Manstein was a modest man and his trial at Nuremberg proves that.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
With what were the Germans going to use to exploit Prokorovkha?
They had been entirely wrong in their estimation of Russian numbers, they had stripped pretty much every other front to achieve the numbers they had and still made almost no headway and worst of all German planners had seemingly lost their nerve in pushing such plan of limited scope.
The only way Germany "might" have won at Kursk was a bold easterly pincer around the Kursk salient and not a timid north-south attempt to pop the pimple and to prove my point about losing their nerve as soon as they enountered stiff resistence on their original lines of attack they adjusted to a further north-south line limiting the scope of the attack even further.
Lets assume though that the pincers had met and the Russian forces in the Kursk salient had been cut off, Germany still never had the manpower to maintain the encirclement and at the same time the Russians were beginning attacks at other areas of the line where the Germans had reduced manpower and material to supply the Kursk assault.
Manstein was an excellent leader (most likely Germanys best one) I am not doubting that but he was in my opinion wrong in his assumption that they could have won at Kursk.
Kursk was a huge mistake and an unmittigated disaster for the Germans in my opinion, largely due to a realisation on the German side that the war was lost.
MarshalManstein1
New Member
I understand you now:bravo: However, I believe that Manstein supported the full on assault instead of waiting and then attacking and many historians agree that Kursk would have been won if Hitler hadn’t given the Soviets enough time to build those tanks, as you mentioned. Also, this was on 1943, and the Germans were already demoralized. The Germans were in a financial crisis and the Soviets had many more troops and tanks and artillery. Thank you for the info though.:bravo:
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
The problem with that notion is that both the Russians and Germans built tanks during that time so the comparitive strengths remained the same, time in my opinion was not decisive either.
What you have to ask yourself with Kursk (and any battle you think is decisive) is what was the best case scenario for both sides had the battle gone either way.
Would a Russian defeat at Kursk changed the outcome of the war in the east?
In my opinion it would at best have given the Third Reich another 6 months and a complete German failure would have changed little.
MarshalManstein1
New Member
In my opinion, yes it would have changed the eastern front because then the Russians have lost a major city, especially after the Third Battle of Kharkov. Manstein’s forces would have supported and crushed Kursk and even Georgy Zhukov, Konstantin Rokossovsky, Nikolai Vatutin, and Ivan Konev can’t stop Günther von Kluge, Hermann Hoth, Werner Kempf, and Walter Model.
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BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Air Vice Marshal Keith Parks Air Officer commanding 11 Group during the Battle of Britain fought the battle as it should have been despite being stabbed in the back once the battle was won, along with Air Officer Commanding Fighter Command Hugh Dowding by Douglas Bader and Air Officer Commanding 12 group Leigh-Mallory.
Keith Parks became AOC (Air Officer Commanding) of RAF LUQA in Malta, his skill and determination ensured Malta managed to fight through attacks by Axis forces to its conclusion.
Leigh Mallory because of his arrogance managed to get he, his wife and the crew of a York transport aircraft killed.:-
On 16 August 1944, with the Battle of Normandy almost over, Leigh-Mallory was appointed Air Commander-in-Chief of South East Asia Command (SEAC) with the temporary rank of air chief marshal. But before he could take up his post, on 14 November, he and his wife were killed en route to Burma when their Avro York MW126,flown by Squadron Leader Charles Gordon Drake Lancaster DFC and Bar, crashed in the French Alps, killing all on board. A court of inquiry found that the accident was a consequence of bad weather and might have been avoided if Leigh-Mallory had not insisted that the flight proceed in such poor conditions against the advice of his aircrew. His replacement at SEAC was his Battle of Britain rival Air Marshal Sir Keith Park. I call that Karma
Keith Parks became AOC (Air Officer Commanding) of RAF LUQA in Malta, his skill and determination ensured Malta managed to fight through attacks by Axis forces to its conclusion.
Leigh Mallory because of his arrogance managed to get he, his wife and the crew of a York transport aircraft killed.:-
On 16 August 1944, with the Battle of Normandy almost over, Leigh-Mallory was appointed Air Commander-in-Chief of South East Asia Command (SEAC) with the temporary rank of air chief marshal. But before he could take up his post, on 14 November, he and his wife were killed en route to Burma when their Avro York MW126,flown by Squadron Leader Charles Gordon Drake Lancaster DFC and Bar, crashed in the French Alps, killing all on board. A court of inquiry found that the accident was a consequence of bad weather and might have been avoided if Leigh-Mallory had not insisted that the flight proceed in such poor conditions against the advice of his aircrew. His replacement at SEAC was his Battle of Britain rival Air Marshal Sir Keith Park. I call that Karma
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I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
In my opinion, yes it would have changed the eastern front because then the Russians have lost a major city, especially after the Third Battle of Kharkov. Manstein’s forces would have supported and crushed Kursk and even Georgy Zhukov, Konstantin Rokossovsky, Nikolai Vatutin, and Ivan Konev can’t stop Günther von Kluge, Hermann Hoth, Werner Kempf, and Walter Model.
Hi, MarshalManstien1, Nice meet you here and I am glad you are here. Please check out our discussions about the Second World War and jump in if you find something interesting and feel free to create your own threads about the matter.
I agree with Monty about Kursk, even if the Germans had been successful, I doubt they had the resources to gain the initiative on the eastern front. The Germans had lost a huge amount of troops and vehicles even if they had won the battle. I have said it another thread (I don't remember which right now) the Germans were on a slippery sloop toward the defeat even before Kursk. There were many factors influencing the final outcome. The Russian mud, the Russian winter, the Russians were too many, the lend lease, the US and Commonwealth activities, the German inability to do anything about the Russian war production while their own production had the attention of the RAF and the USAAF. The intelligence worked for the Ruskies as well. All these things combined prevented the Germans to gain the initiative on the eastern front and the commanders on the German side couldn't do anything about it. Manstien implemented a really good defense in the south prior Kursk and that makes him a talented German commander. However, to rely on what Generals and other commanders were/are writing can provide with a biased perception of the events.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
The sad thing is that Park is not as well known in New Zealand as he should be, we focus on Feyburg and Upham and little else.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Thats sad Monty, Keith Parks in my mind is the stuff heroes are made out of, he and Hugh Dowding saved Britain during the battle and later on Keith Parks, saved Malta.
Having said that, Frank Whittle got more recognition in the USA then he did in Britain.
MarshalManstein1
New Member
Hello Viking (finally someone else), Let me direct your attention towards Manstein’s skill, and if he would have won Kursk and held it if all troops were equal. I believe yes, Manstein would have won not because I am biased, it because he has more military experience than anyone else. Also, intelligence isn’t always the best, as we know the enigma failed. Finally, if the japs weren’t idiots to attack the US, and if Hitler sent more troops to North Africa, then Hitler would have most of his troops at the USSR and all failures irl wouldn’t happen. I salute your opinion though. It is a privilege.:salute2:
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I have often wondered how Morshead would have done on Crete instead of Freyburg.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
There are a couple of threads in the WW2 section that cover both Kursk and Manstein where this level of discussion is more suited as it covers areas I would like to continue.
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
I think we can move this discussion to the World Wars Section so we don't delude this thread. There is a thread created by George about Kursk, we can continue there if you like. Manstein was an experienced commander, no doubt about that. However, I doubt he had any chance to be successful at Kursk. The Germans didn't have the logistical strength to launch an all out offensive toward Moscow or any other strategical targets in Soviet Union at the time.