Enhanced Interrogation and the "torture memos"

senojekips said:
Remember, we are supposed to be convincing the world that we are "the good guys" not the same as those whom we criticize for their uncivilised behaviour.
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Yeah. And we chose to be the good guys and it's hard being the good guy. It just looks like we're proving not to be up to the task. The public has a lot of guilt in this part as well... I remember how the public was so panic stricken after 9/11. It was quite pathetic. That's where all that weakness and lack of courage ends up.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
Sometimes you can think of it this way.
More lives will be lost of we do not interrogate with those methods..
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+1

I don't support being the "nice guy" and taking one for the team because we might not be viewed as "the good guys" anymore.

I'd rather our government tortured those they knew had something to hide than to sit back and watch as innocent people are killed.

I say torture away. This world would be a better place if bad guys feared [us] more...imho.
 
Pixie, you obviously don't read the news.

Even the CIA has admitted that information gained through torture is useless, for all the reasons that the world has known about for a hundred years or more. http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...icials_torture_confessions_not_proven_useful/
In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida - chiefly names of Al Qaeda members and associates - was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.
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Torture is merely frustrated people who realising that they are useless at their jobs who then use their prisoners as etertainment and to vent their anger like school children who can't have their own way. Read the reports and look at the photos of Abu Ghraib. (is that something that makes you proud).

In many cases, it has turned into plain straight out murder of their prisoners, and that is a war crime.

Do you wish to see your country viewed by the world as morally no better than places like those Muslim countries we hold up to the world as morally bankrupt, or Germany and Japan during WWII.

You personally have proclaimed on this forum that you are a christian and believe in god,... now you might see why atheists like myself think so little of people who make such claims. Beating people to death or near death is no more "Taking one for the team" than it was for those who poured Zyklon B into the gas chambers, it is a crime against humanity, something that should have ended in the 1500s.

Personally I think you should work out which side of the fence you are on, are you a christian, or are you no better or maybe worse than the muslims, as an atheist I have no difficulty whatsoever in reconciling my views on the subject.
 
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senojekips said:
Pixie, you obviously don't read the news.

Even the CIA has admitted that information gained through torture is useless, for all the reasons that the world has known about for a hundred years or more. http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...icials_torture_confessions_not_proven_useful/
Torture is merely frustrated people who realising that they are useless at their jobs who then use their prisoners as etertainment and to vent their anger like school children who can't have their own way. Read the reports and look at the photos of Abu Ghraib. (is that something that makes you proud).

In many cases, it has turned into plain straight out murder of their prisoners, and that is a war crime.

Do you wish to see your country viewed by the world as morally no better than places like those Muslim countries we hold up to the world as morally bankrupt, or Germany and Japan during WWII.

You personally have proclaimed on this forum that you are a christian and believe in god,... now you might see why atheists like myself think so little of people who make such claims. Beating people to death or near death is no more "Taking one for the team" than it was for those who poured Zyklon B into the gas chambers, it is a crime against humanity, something that should have ended in the 1500s.

Personally I think you should work out which side of the fence you are on, are you a christian, or are you no better or maybe worse than the muslims, as an atheist I have no difficulty whatsoever in reconciling my views on the subject.
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I didn't say we should kill them or use them as "entertainment." However, I do think if being the nice cop doesn't work it's time to be the bad cop.

I don't think torture should be used in every case (I believe it should be used seldom in fact - but I do think it needs to be an option). If the person isn't talking the government needs to untie some hands so they can find out information that could potentially save innocent people.

Being a Christian doesn't mean that I am afraid of hurting people or that I am a perfect image of Christ. If something will save my [future] children or some other innocent person I will walk on the fence with some of my views.



p.s. I would personally shoot or hurt anyone within my ability if they were trying to hurt another I loved...I never claimed to be a perfect Christian and honestly, I don't want to change that part of myself. Having faith and trust in God is all well and good, but God also gave one the power and choice to fight back. I would fight back.
 
pixiedustboo said:
I didn't say we should kill them or use them as "entertainment." However, I do think if being the nice cop doesn't work it's time to be the bad cop.

I don't think torture should be used in every case (I believe it should be used seldom in fact - but I do think it needs to be an option). If the person isn't talking the government needs to untie some hands so they can find out information that could potentially save innocent people.

Being a Christian doesn't mean that I am afraid of hurting people or that I am a perfect image of Christ. If something will save my [future] children or some other innocent person I will walk on the fence with some of my views.



p.s. I would personally shoot or hurt anyone within my ability if they were trying to hurt another I loved...I never claimed to be a perfect Christian and honestly, I don't want to change that part of myself. Having faith and trust in God is all well and good, but God also gave one the power and choice to fight back. I would fight back.
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So when and where is the right of Habeus Corpus applied? Only to US citizens, do they have a particular colour, religion, sexual preference or are height distinction?

You have a law, you either apply it or not, it is not a case of it is Wednesday so I get to pull over all motorists in blue cars - 'cos I don't like blue!!
 
Well, in view of the fact that torture has been admitted as being useless for the gathering of information, I would say that your decision about torture is about as un christian as I have ever heard. As it clearly demonstrates that torture is no more than entertainment for those who can do nothing else.

My interpretation of the bible overall, (Yes, I have read the bible) would put your views a odds with the perceived views of christianity. Either you are or you aren't because torture and christianity are mutually exclusive.
 
senojekips said:
Well, in view of the fact that torture has been admitted as being useless for the gathering of information, I would say that your decision about torture is about as un christian as I have ever heard. As it clearly demonstrates that torture is no more than entertainment for those who can do nothing else.

My interpretation of the bible overall, (Yes, I have read the bible) would put your views a odds with the perceived views of christianity. Either you are or you aren't because torture and christianity are mutually exclusive.
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Having the ability to torture wouldn't be useless though, because people would just spill their guts before they were tortured, wouldn't they?

I don't know the minds of terrorists and criminals but I'd talk before being tortured if I knew having someone torture me would be an option for them.

I'm not excited about the idea of torture, nor do I think it should be widely used, however I am frightened of the idea that it will be GONE forever and how people will walk all over us.



p.s. God says He loves me the way I are. :mrgreen:

p.s.s. I am tired of being drawn and quartered about this whole Christianity thing. I am pretty sure you are leaning towards torture.
 
Partisan said:
So when and where is the right of Habeus Corpus applied? Only to US citizens, do they have a particular colour, religion, sexual preference or are height distinction?
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Does not apply to this topic of torture but for clarification. Guantanamo was set up because it is not in the United States. There fore Habeas Corpus does not apply. This would be a whole different topic.
 
I am definitely not leaning towards torture, no more than I would just kill someone for the fun of it.

If I were so p!ssed off, that I had to torture someone to get my jollies off, at least I would not try to hide behind the fairy story that I was doing it to get information. That is like an alcoholic saying he drinks because he is thirsty..... BS.

The first step in becoming a worthwhile human being is in being honest with yourself. After that being honest with others is no problem.
 
pixiedustboo said:
Having the ability to torture wouldn't be useless though, because people would just spill their guts before they were tortured, wouldn't they?

I don't know the minds of terrorists and criminals but I'd talk before being tortured if I knew having someone torture me would be an option for them.

I'm not excited about the idea of torture, nor do I think it should be widely used, however I am frightened of the idea that it will be GONE forever and how people will walk all over us.



p.s. God says He loves me the way I are. :mrgreen:

p.s.s. I am tired of being drawn and quartered about this whole Christianity thing. I am pretty sure you are leaning towards torture.
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Pixie, if you're going to torture me I'll tell you want to hear - I did kill **** Robin & yes it was me on the grassy knoll - does that let me off? No? what else do you want to know, because I'll make it up as I go along. Torture is wrong, by any measurement of humanity. It is not something that you can do a little bit of.

I am seriously concerned because the argument keeps coming up, what if the prisoner had vital information that could save other lives. Do you realise how long it takes to properley torture someone? How to find their weak spots, set their mind into one of total fear? By the time you've done that the event has more than likely happened, so as Senjo says you're just having fun, might as well put it on PPV.
 
Pixie, you misread my point as you only read half.
I said that although torture may lead to saving a few more lives, it means we have to contradict a lot of things that we have already decided as unethical. Many countries who do use torture live under the gun far more seriously than the United States does, yet the US condemns torture in many of those countries. If America tortures key prisoners when the stakes are even lower it basically classifies itself as a bad country.
Like I've already said, the US has classified waterboarding as torture and has tried many people under that ruling.
I think it is important that we be the good guys. What do you think the average German soldier was guilty of in World War II? Yet because the country they were serving for was without question bad, they do not get the sort of treatment that allied veterans of World War II get.
I don't want the same to happen to us. I would rather die with my name and service honored than live knowing that the people I fight against are better than the people I serve and protect.
 
pixiedustboo said:
+1

I don't support being the "nice guy" and taking one for the team because we might not be viewed as "the good guys" anymore.

I'd rather our government tortured those they knew had something to hide than to sit back and watch as innocent people are killed.

I say torture away. This world would be a better place if bad guys feared [us] more...imho.
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Just wondering what you would say if they tortured you though you had not done nothing except being in the wrong place at the wrong time and got sold for a few bucks as a "top terrorist" by your "friends" (i.e. being *perfectly* innocent)???

There is no other way than to do the *right* thing, whatever the cost, in lives (I wopuld value *your* life in above scenario as high as that of a service man, that is what we are there for), dollars or whatever...

If you don´t follow up on your pretenses, you might win battles, but will lose the war.

It is the beliefs and morale that win you the wars in the end.

My 2c,

Rattler
 
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rattler said:
Just wondering what you would say if they tortured you though you had not done nothing except being in the wrong place at the wrong time and got sold for a few bucks as a "top terrorist" by your "friends" (i.e. being *perfectly* innocent)???

There is no other way than to do the *right* thing, whatever the cost, in lives (I wopuld value *your* life in above scenario as high as that of a service man, that is what we are there for), dollars or whatever...

If you don´t follow up on your pretenses, you might win battles, but will lose the war.

It is the beliefs and morale that win you the wars in the end.

My 2c,

Rattler
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Agree with Spike, very well said Rattler.
 
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