Don't fault Israel for Palestinians' intransigence

[MontyB]

:bravo:

There is a myth hanging over all discussion of the Palestinian problem: the myth that this land was "Arab" land taken from its native inhabitants by invading Jews. Whatever may be the correct solution to the problems of the Middle East, let's get a few things straight:
...
The Canaanites, who had inhabited the land for thousands of years before they were dispossessed by the Israelites.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

You are missing the point people are trying to make, the belief (and so far it is just a belief) is that for simplicities sake there 3 general groups of people currently in the region currently:

1) Arabs, Palestinians etc. who have lived in the region for thousands of years.
2) For want of a better word "Ethnic Jews" ones that can physically trace their roots back to the region for multiple generations.
3) Non-ethnic Jews ie the lot that showed up from the late 1800s onwards.

It is my theory (and I have no doubt others as well) that groups 1 and 2 share a genetic history more than likely originating with the Canaanites and only vary by what religion they choose to follow where as group 3 has literally nothing in common genetically with either of groups 1 and 2 but have taken over the region through weight of numbers.

To cut a long story short group 1 and 2 have a legitimate claim to the region group 3 does not.

My belief is that if people moved away from tiptoeing around religion and simply looked at genetics which is what should decide this issue you would see a very different picture.

 

[senojekips]

The Canaanites, who had inhabited the land for thousands of years before they were dispossessed by the Israelites.

And where may I ask did the Israelites come from? The point being here, that this was never the Israelites land originally, as stated by others. Not that it has anything to do with the argument, as they almost all left the area for Europe by about 800AD.

All of the above notwithstanding the Jews were a minority at, and prior to that time as previously shown here and never were a majority in that land until 1948+ Recognised sources have been provided on this Forum numerous times to demonstrate this.

There is no legitimacy in the claim of those returning after 1850ish as they had not lived there for 1200 years or more, just as I have no claim on land owned by my ancestors in England 150 years ago. In fact the Jews per se have less claim to the land than almost any of those who have lived there for the last 3000 years.

You have also conveniently overlooked the fact that the British had previously promised this territory to the Palestinians for their own state in return for their assistance against the Turks in WWI.

 

[Del Boy]

Apologies to my friend Seno for my sharp words (knee-jerk reaction) but I am glad to see that I have now engaged attention to discuss the matter of historical presence in the region properly and carefully, and hopefully leaving out the politics for the moment.

I have shown before here :-

That DNA has established the presence of the Jews in the region from -pre-Canaan and Canaan times, beyond 4000 years back. DNA establishes that nearly all Askenazi and Sephardi Jews share this , including European Jews. And that the Jews were part of the multi facetted group Canaanites, those of Canaa, largely traders.

This presence carries through the whole period, to a greater or lesser degree, dependant always on removal by holocaust , never by a wish to abandon their lands.



I have presented an accurate chronological account of the historical presence from then til now, from public domain sources, without reliance on solely biblical references.

They are the only occupants who developed Kingdoms, governments, and a state with Jerusalem as it's capital from some 1300 BC to AD 70, which was destroyed by the Roman holocaust which physically drove them from their lands. Archeological evidence supports all of this.

I presented the detailed description of this devastating genocidal slaughter; from Josephus, the Roman historian, not from biblical source.

None of the above can be dismissed, and no others have any such claim as to who they are or were, other than that they are Arabs drawn from the expanse of Arabia, not of any seperate known stock.

I will be interested in perusing any other such claim.

Today the Arabs have almost all of Israel's kingdoms.

For example, this claim of the Jews to a homeland in a tiny strip of the old kingdoms is a far, far greater claim than even Seno has to live in Australia, by the exact same measure as he puts forward. Even the datelines of 1800 put forward is precise in making that comparison; the timing of the white invasion of Australia.

OK, there's a little start; I am prepared to scroll back through my posts to re-produce the points I have again mentioned here, if I am asked to.


THE WHITE INVASION OF AUSTRALIA. (an Australian view of Australia)

Jan 1788 -- British capitalist invasion of Australia commenced. Indiginous population said to be around 1,000,000, speaking some 300 languages.They are soon to be reduced to beggary in their own country.
From 1790 – white settlements around Sydney attacked. Soldiers sent to destroy all Aboriginal peoples met.
From 1820 - Expanding wool market in Britain results in a huge-scale wholesale land grab by the invaders.
1824 - Martial Law.
By 1842 generalised warfare from Port Phillip into Queensland.

Until 1890’s unspeakable atrocities against Aboriginals. Solicitor-General of Tasmania:- ‘If you cannot capture them, destroy them’.
Evidence in Victoria government files that ‘ poisoned damper’ was fed to men, women and children.
1839 – ‘For sheep run it was necessary to slaughter natives right and left. Found some 20 bodies in a mass grave. A settler in a new country is obliged to do this or abandon it’.
Australian society had developed “ vicious racism. “
A system of ‘protection’ attempted to control every aspect of the lives of the indigenous peoples, but allowed continuing extermination.
1860- Robert O’Hara Burke,- ‘ I had been born and bred a member of the ruling race in a conquered country and could not bring myself to associate with natives’.

1864- North Australia – profits from cattle brought about the destruction and enslavement of the Aboriginal peoples. Individual’s scores of death tolls were notched on guns, in the hundreds.
By 1888 – Three waves of invasion had been inflicted upon the Aboriginal peoples -- Convicts, Sheep and Cattle occupied the land they had cared for over COUNTLESS THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

2007/8 – It is said that Aboriginal people can still be killed with impunity by forces of the state; vested interests do not want them strong and healthy living on their lands; pastoralists and billion-dollar interests are shoving them off.
In the Northern Territory, governments are still stealing their land and calling it ‘protection’.

The Aboriginal peoples are still demanding justice and recognition that “ EVERY INCH OF THIS COUNTRY IS STOLEN ABORIGINAL LAND.”

 

[MontyB]

The Aboriginal peoples are still demanding justice and recognition that “ EVERY INCH OF THIS COUNTRY IS STOLEN ABORIGINAL LAND.”

I agree 100% Seno you are out of Australia I suggest you have your bags packed and be gone within 48 hours, the good news is that you have a very strong "Historical" claim to vast chunks of England my suggestion is that you pack yourselves on boats sail over there and take up arms to get what you want.

Once you have achieved that you can start importing "Australians" from around the world and use that as a justification to take more land until eventually the locals who were really only rejected French and German descendants anyway can have small blocks of land not required by returning Australians.

If anyone questions this action remember to hide behind the argument that many of your ancestors were moved forcibly to Australia in the first place, I am also aware that many Australians are from other parts of the world but in the end they are still Australians so they have every right to return to their historical homeland of Britain.

There ya go problem solved sure you get lousy weather but think of the cheap European holidays.

Oh and Del Boy if you are planning some form of rebellion remember we don't like terrorists so just be a good lad and hand over the keys when he arrives.

 

[senojekips]

Of course MontyB, I'm about to book my ticket. I'm going to be a wealthy absentee Land lord in Northumberland, Cumberland and Durham who will live in one of my many houses in London. Liverpool street station will have to go as it is built in land owned partly by my Gt Gt Grandfather, and it looks like that gherkin shaped monstrosity at 30 St Mary Axe, will have to be surrendered as that is also partly mine along with the site of the black Lion Inn in Petticoat lane and another on Commercial road.

Did I just hear a Merry go Round?? Ah well, one last ride I guess, it's so hard to resist when the rides are free and the owner so absolutely witless.

The Federal Government now rent this country, as we are paying every Aboriginal person including many whiter than I am, RENT. It is called The Reconciliation Payment and is paid over and above any other payments to any person able to show any Aboriginal blood.

The country was not colonised by myself or my relatives, but it was, if you remember a dumping ground for England's criminals, so I guess the responsible persons had better come back and clean up the mess they left. The earliest of my relations only arrived in 1869 a century after the First Fleet, by which time there had been laws in place making the killing of Aboriginals except as self defence, a hanging offence for nearly 40 years. Unlike Israel where the occupiers still have an Apartheid system in place and are dispossessing, harassing, beating and murdering the legitimate owners to this day, and then totally ignoring criticism from the civilised world at large.The latest affair being the admitted general acceptance within the Army of knowledge of Palestinian children being used as target practice for snipers.

It's a pretty good sign that the Israelis know that they are on notice from the free world when they won't even send their Military representatives overseas for fear of them being dragged before war crimes tribunals or the International Courts of Justice.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/14/israeli-moshe-yaalon-visit-arrest

Australia was colonised 200 years ago when colonisation was an accepted practice, not after WWII when virtually all other countries were divesting themselves of their colonies. So in short, there is no comparison whatsoever. Also the aboriginals know that if the whites left, they would immediately become an Indonesian province or Chinese colony, and they know what that would mean. So the present arrangement is very willingly accepted.

Tell me more DB, as the people you speak of are probably more closely related to you than I.

 

[ScarabVenom]

Following the 1967 Six Day War, Israel temporarily occupied and built settlements in the Sinai - only to completely abandon them, relocate thousands of settlers and return sovereignty to Egypt as part of a peace agreement with Egypt signed in 1979.

I got a few pointers on this quote,

"Israel temporarily occupied and built settlements in the Sinai - only to abandon them." So, they built it to abandon it? That's kinda weird, isn't it?

The last thing, I find your article completely biased. At the very least, look what you spoke of, 1967 war and 1979 treaty. Where did the 1973 war go? Which is a direct reason for the treaty? How did the outcome of this war affect the treaty? Had Israel won this war, probably there wouldn't be a treaty and Israel would keep enjoying Egyptian oilfields in the Sinai? If also they intended to leave, why on the 15th of July, 1967 the Israelis went to the center of the Suez canal raising their flag and demanding their "right" of half of the canal?

Let me tell you something, Israel might be willing to give land back, but when? When others sign a "peace" treaty with Israeli terms. Either, keep the land they steal or tell you what you should surrender in return. Maybe Israel wants peace. But, they want peace that comes through military dominance. If other countries want their militarily stolen land back, they have to agree to all Israel's conditions if they refuse, Israel keeps the land.

 

[VDKMS]

I got a few pointers on this quote,

"Israel temporarily occupied and built settlements in the Sinai - only to abandon them." So, they built it to abandon it? That's kinda weird, isn't it?

The last thing, I find your article completely biased. At the very least, look what you spoke of, 1967 war and 1979 treaty. Where did the 1973 war go? Which is a direct reason for the treaty? How did the outcome of this war affect the treaty? Had Israel won this war, probably there wouldn't be a treaty and Israel would keep enjoying Egyptian oilfields in the Sinai? If also they intended to leave, why on the 15th of July, 1967 the Israelis went to the center of the Suez canal raising their flag and demanding their "right" of half of the canal?

Let me tell you something, Israel might be willing to give land back, but when? When others sign a "peace" treaty with Israeli terms. Either, keep the land they steal or tell you what you should surrender in return. Maybe Israel wants peace. But, they want peace that comes through military dominance. If other countries want their militarily stolen land back, they have to agree to all Israel's conditions if they refuse, Israel keeps the land.

Prove that Israel stole that land from the palestinians.

 

[Del Boy]

A little reminder of the FACTS of the matter.

I have shown before here :-

That DNA has established the presence of the Jews in the region from -pre-Canaan and Canaan times, beyond 4000 years back. DNA establishes that nearly all Askenazi and Sephardi Jews share this , including European Jews. And that the Jews were part of the multi facetted group Canaanites, those of Canaa, largely traders.

This presence carries through the whole period, to a greater or lesser degree, dependant always on removal by holocaust , never by a wish to abandon their lands.



I have presented an accurate chronological account of the historical presence from then til now, from public domain sources, without reliance on solely biblical references.

They are the only occupants who developed Kingdoms, governments, and a state with Jerusalem as it's capital from some 1300 BC to AD 70, which was destroyed by the Roman holocaust which physically drove them from their lands. Archeological evidence supports all of this.

I presented the detailed description of this devastating genocidal slaughter; from Josephus, the Roman historian, not from biblical source.

None of the above can be dismissed, and no others have any such claim as to who they are or were, other than that they are Arabs drawn from the expanse of Arabia, not of any seperate known stock.

I will be interested in perusing any other such claim.

Today the Arabs have almost all of Israel's kingdoms.

For example, this claim of the Jews to a homeland in a tiny strip of the old kingdoms is a far, far greater claim than even Seno has to live in Australia, by the exact same measure as he puts forward. Even the datelines of 1800 put forward is precise in making that comparison; the timing of the white invasion of Australia.

OK, there's a little start; I am prepared to scroll back through my posts to re-produce the points I have again mentioned here, if I am asked to.


THE WHITE INVASION OF AUSTRALIA. (an Australian view of Australia)

Jan 1788 -- British capitalist invasion of Australia commenced. Indiginous population said to be around 1,000,000, speaking some 300 languages.They are soon to be reduced to beggary in their own country.
From 1790 – white settlements around Sydney attacked. Soldiers sent to destroy all Aboriginal peoples met.
From 1820 - Expanding wool market in Britain results in a huge-scale wholesale land grab by the invaders.
1824 - Martial Law.
By 1842 generalised warfare from Port Phillip into Queensland.

Until 1890’s unspeakable atrocities against Aboriginals. Solicitor-General of Tasmania:- ‘If you cannot capture them, destroy them’.
Evidence in Victoria government files that ‘ poisoned damper’ was fed to men, women and children.
1839 – ‘For sheep run it was necessary to slaughter natives right and left. Found some 20 bodies in a mass grave. A settler in a new country is obliged to do this or abandon it’.
Australian society had developed “ vicious racism. “
A system of ‘protection’ attempted to control every aspect of the lives of the indigenous peoples, but allowed continuing extermination.
1860- Robert O’Hara Burke,- ‘ I had been born and bred a member of the ruling race in a conquered country and could not bring myself to associate with natives’.

1864- North Australia – profits from cattle brought about the destruction and enslavement of the Aboriginal peoples. Individual’s scores of death tolls were notched on guns, in the hundreds.
By 1888 – Three waves of invasion had been inflicted upon the Aboriginal peoples -- Convicts, Sheep and Cattle occupied the land they had cared for over COUNTLESS THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

2007/8 – It is said that Aboriginal people can still be killed with impunity by forces of the state; vested interests do not want them strong and healthy living on their lands; pastoralists and billion-dollar interests are shoving them off.
In the Northern Territory, governments are still stealing their land and calling it ‘protection’.

The Aboriginal peoples are still demanding justice and recognition that “ EVERY INCH OF THIS COUNTRY IS STOLEN ABORIGINAL LAND.”[/QUOTE]

 

[senojekips]

A little reminder of the FACTS of the matter. ---all previously answered and disproved several years ago,... Alzheimer's DB?---

You had better catch up a bit, (a great deal, actually) virtually all of your post is many years out of date. Also I believe this country was settled by English settlers, (not Australians,... we were still effectively under British rule until 1st Jan. 1901) who did so at a time when it was the accepted thing and no International laws disallowed it. You had also better read what was said on this Forum about this matter several years ago showing exactly how out of touch you are. It has been a capital crime to murder an Aboriginal in Australia since 1832.

you invader of the British Isles.:lol:

 

[BritinBritain]

Prove that Israel stole that land from the palestinians.

What no answer?

Why don't you move to Israel get tooled up and bump off a few Palestinians like your Israeli mates?

 

[senojekips]

Prove that Israel stole that land from the palestinians.

​

• Major Legal Principle Violated -
  • 2. Parties to military conflict and occupation, are required to allow civilians to return to their homes following the end of fighting no matter what their reasons for leaving.
• As Per International Law -
  • Geneva Conventions IV (1949), articles 45, 46 & 49 (full text) (relevant articles - see below)
  • Geneva Conventions Protocols I (1977), article 85(4d) (full text) (relevant articles - see below)

• This refusal amounts to illegal acquisition of Land and possessions (Theft)

 

[Del Boy]

You had better catch up a bit, (a great deal, actually) virtually all of your post is many years out of date. Also I believe this country was settled by English settlers, (not Australians,... we were still effectively under British rule until 1st Jan. 1901) who did so at a time when it was the accepted thing and no International laws disallowed it. You had also better read what was said on this Forum about this matter several years ago showing exactly how out of touch you are. It has been a capital crime to murder an Aboriginal in Australia since 1832.

you invader of the British Isles.:lol:

I know that this thread was revived recently- not by me. But I reckon I might as well jog your memory, since the opportunity was here. But you are b/s me again - don't try - I shelved a great deal of stuff out of respect to Australia or Australians; I have no problem at all with them - just you and your bigotted measure. I may look further into the status of this thread, I think there is more to come.

 

[senojekips]

I know that this thread was revived recently- not by me. But I reckon I might as well jog your memory, since the opportunity was here.

You don't need to jog my memory,.... you are the one with memory problems.

Of course,... you don't remember all of the circular arguments, or the "the Merry go Round" or the "March of the Clowns" music that backed all you posts?

That was why everyone put you on ignore the last time you were out of the mental hospital.

Bye bye,...

 

[Del Boy]

You don't need to jog my memory,.... you are the one with memory problems.

Of course,... you don't remember all of the circular arguments, or the "the Merry go Round" or the "March of the Clowns" music that backed all you posts?

That was why everyone put you on ignore the last time you were out of the mental hospital.

Bye bye,...

Oh, nice one Tweedledum. If that is all you've got, you've already lost it.:cheers:
I doubt they'll ever let you out though.

 

[VDKMS]

​

• This refusal amounts to illegal acquisition of Land and possessions (Theft)

You didn't dig far enough.

UN resolution 194 :

that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which under principles of international law or in equity should be made good by Governments or authorities responsible. Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of refugees and payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the Uited Nations Relief for Palestinian Refugees, and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations."​

 

[MontyB]

You didn't dig far enough.

UN resolution 194 :

that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which under principles of international law or in equity should be made good by Governments or authorities responsible. Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of refugees and payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the Uited Nations Relief for Palestinian Refugees, and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations."​

So you make it easier:
- Are those Palestinians who want to return allowed to?
- Have those that don't want to return received compensation?

If the answer to any of those questions is No then Spike is right it is theft, you could of course argue that the "earliest practicable date" has not yet been reached but then that would be admitting that it is still Palestinian land.

Now I am sure I know where you are going with this but I will wait and see but needless to say other conflicts require other resolutions.

 

[ScarabVenom]

Prove that Israel stole that land from the palestinians.

Did you see me mentioning Palestine anywhere in my post? If so, please remind me.

I've stated before that I'm not a Palestinian-Israeli conflict expert. But, I did state my opinion regarding Israel more than once, as well. Had I known more of the conflict, I'd happily discuss. But, I don't discuss matters that I'm not knowledgeable about.

 

[senojekips]

You didn't dig far enough.

UN resolution 194 :

In your vain attempt to make any excuse at all, you dug too deep,... Firstly, UN resolutions have no bearing whatsoever on International law?

Other than that nothing has changed, it's still theft, or in the case where the thief makes the return of the items conditional it then becomes theft with extortion.

 

[VDKMS]

So you make it easier:
- Are those Palestinians who want to return allowed to?
- Have those that don't want to return received compensation?

If the answer to any of those questions is No then Spike is right it is theft, you could of course argue that the "earliest practicable date" has not yet been reached but then that would be admitting that it is still Palestinian land.

Now I am sure I know where you are going with this but I will wait and see but needless to say other conflicts require other resolutions.

Well, most Palestinian refugees are hostile to the Jews and the reolution also says : "live at peace with their neighbors". If they can't do that they are not allowed to return.

Did you know that Israel declared its readiness to pay compensation for real properties left behind by the refugees. It also offered to take back into Israel up to 100,000 Arab refugees: (an offer later withdrawn, after the Arabs had steadfastly refused to negotiate with Israel).
VI- THE ARAB REFUGEES- INTRODUCTION

In your vain attempt to make any excuse at all, you dug too deep,... Firstly, UN resolutions have no bearing whatsoever on International law?

Other than that nothing has changed, it's still theft, or in the case where the thief makes the return of the items conditional it then becomes theft with extortion.

Theft? From who? Palestinians? Most of them left voluntarily. Do you know who the thief is? The Arabs who confiscated all Jewish properties and expelled them (like the Nazis did) and later on cried foul because they turned up in Israel. Or the Jordanians who confiscated everything from the Jews and expelled them, destroying all synagogues.

 

[senojekips]

Theft? From who? Palestinians? Most of them left voluntarily. .

[SIZE=+1]INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW
(applies during wartime and to military occupations)[/SIZE]​

2. Parties to military conflict and their armed forces are required to allow civilians to return to their homes following the end of fighting no matter what their reasons for leaving (related International Laws, Israeli violations, and references)