Could Germany have defeated the US?
USAFAUX2004
Active member
Damien435 said:
That is exactly what I was thinking for invasion, or maybe go to Mexico and agree to give them back the land taken 100 years ago and then screw them over also. I think that if the US was to fight at home they would lose. Lets say that in 1941 Germany takes over England and never attacks the USSR. Now I know for a fact from the books i have read that stalin was planning to attack Germany during the Blitzkrieg on France, but since France fell so soon, Stalin could have stoped. Then the soviets would probably try to build up their forces. Maybe by 1943 Russia would feel confident Enough to attack germany, but by that time all of the German Empire probably would have massive armies build up under the swastica. Russia strikes and because of the forces and technology germany possesses they would be pushed back. (The germans would have jets, better tanks and even better guns such as the MP44) Russia would fall back and hitler would finish them off by 1945 (probably Nuclear weapons tested on Russian Cities) Then a HUGE massacre of the Russian would follow and Hitler would be ready to invade america. In 1946 Hitler Agrees with Mexico to Invade the USA thru the south-western states. The US would not think much about the war in europe, because Britain Fell and the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. The US would have trouble with Japan, because the British were not there and the battle of Guadalcanal was probably lost, the japanese control most of the East Coastline up to India and all the Islands, including Australia. When The Germans Secretly move their armies into Mexico, they prepare to strike the USA by 1947. When in 1947 the US gets attacked it does not know where to find the resources (Human power) to fight. Old Men, Women,Children fight with what ever they have, but by 1949 only pockets of resistance are left. I believe this could be the Scenario of WW2 if the war did not go the way it did
Kirill K said:
Thats where CAP comes in and bombs the he-l out of the U-boats
yurry said:
It was the FockeWulf Condor, Germany's sole 4 engined plane that saw action during the war as a maritime patrol/recon aircraft. However the flight to NY you are reffering to took place before the start of WW2 (i think 1937/1938)as a Nazi propoganda stunt. It was stripped of all it's interior and extra internal fueltanks where installed so it could make the trip to NY non-stop.
Damien435
Active member
Dutchy said:
I don't think that is what he was talking about. At the end of WWII Nazi Germany had plans to build a Delta Wing (Stealth Bomber) that could fly from Peenemünde, fly east over Asia, the Pacific, and the US, drop a nuke on New York City, and then coast over the Atlantic while gradually dropping in altitude until it could land again at Peenemünde, given their knowledge on Jet Engines it was well within their abilities to build the planes that could carry the bomb, but they were never able to build the bomb so it was pointless for them to build the plane.
Is it really a FockeWulf and not a Horten build aircraft. To my best recollection Horten was the only German aeroplane manufacturer that extensively developed, built and tested the flying wing concept?!
redcoat
Active member
Damien435 said:
The aircraft that was supposed to have flown within a few miles of New York was the Junkers Ju 390, a six engined development of the 4 engined maritime-reconnaissance Ju 290.
However modern research has cast doubt on whether this flight actually took place.
As for the Delta wing aircraft, apart from the fact it never got beyond the drawing-board stage*, the idea for its useage is a post war fantasy, the Germans had stopped all work on building an atom bomb type weapon by 1943.
* actually that makes it sound more ready than it was. All that it was in truth was a couple of drawings of the idea. They hadn't got around to any more detailed work than that by the time Allied tanks were parked on their front lawn .
Anya1982
Banned
war
If the UK fell and germany invaded, lets face it the amopunt of times they tried and we stood tall for so many years when most countries would of fallen.............
Anyway, US would not of been ready or equipted enough to face germany. If Uk fell and US had to stand it would take longer, germany had the intelligence that the US did not have.
Its a 50/50 shot in the dark really that kind of question. US are respected for coming in on the last yr as we needed the help, money wise and that will never be forgotten but back then US did not have the source to stand on their own against germany. Uk were lucky, but guess its pot luck really
If the UK fell and germany invaded, lets face it the amopunt of times they tried and we stood tall for so many years when most countries would of fallen.............
Anyway, US would not of been ready or equipted enough to face germany. If Uk fell and US had to stand it would take longer, germany had the intelligence that the US did not have.
Its a 50/50 shot in the dark really that kind of question. US are respected for coming in on the last yr as we needed the help, money wise and that will never be forgotten but back then US did not have the source to stand on their own against germany. Uk were lucky, but guess its pot luck really
Young Winston
Banned
A straight out land battle between the Germans (at their best) in say 1941/1942 and the US. The Germans would have won!
But to win the War they could not have successfully beaten the US as a sea invasion would have been necessary.
But to win the War they could not have successfully beaten the US as a sea invasion would have been necessary.
Byzantine
New Member
The US would win a drawn out war against the Nazi's but it would have definately been America's most strongest and toughest advesary since Great Britain in the Revolution and 1812.
First of all Germanies tactics were lighting fast, but on the plus side America at that time copied their tactics like how General Patton used his methods.
German tanks were the best..case closed.
In order for America to have beaten their tanks we needed to roll out the Pershings and any new developments early and stop screwing around with shermans and wolverines.
But on the other hand also know that Germany developed their super tanks when fighting against Russia. So if there was no Russian front then the Nazi's would still be using their little Panzer III's against our Sherman's and Wolverines.
But the battle of who would win would definately have been credited to which navy could knock out who. America would not have given up just due to one land defeat, we would have returned with our navy (Think deadly carrier based aircraft but using against the germans!) Uboats and pocket battleships wouldn't have a chance.
So all in all it would depend on who could set their troops on who's land and hold off.
First of all Germanies tactics were lighting fast, but on the plus side America at that time copied their tactics like how General Patton used his methods.
German tanks were the best..case closed.
In order for America to have beaten their tanks we needed to roll out the Pershings and any new developments early and stop screwing around with shermans and wolverines.
But on the other hand also know that Germany developed their super tanks when fighting against Russia. So if there was no Russian front then the Nazi's would still be using their little Panzer III's against our Sherman's and Wolverines.
But the battle of who would win would definately have been credited to which navy could knock out who. America would not have given up just due to one land defeat, we would have returned with our navy (Think deadly carrier based aircraft but using against the germans!) Uboats and pocket battleships wouldn't have a chance.
So all in all it would depend on who could set their troops on who's land and hold off.
That is the plan the Germans had for WW2, but USA knew this would be the case so they gave aid to those countrys, Cash and Carry being one, and then To Protection Cash and Carry. Out of the 100 million tonnes of supplys, 1 million was been lost. The more the Aid the Better, America was in no dirrect involvment with War and could stay Nutrual.
In 1939 out of 100 People in USA. 91 said they wanted to have nothing to do with war in Europe.
In 1940, 85 said the same.
In 1941, before PH, 80 said the same.
Figures could be one or 2 out.
So now if Germany didn't invade USSR, and finished of England, if Japan didn't Attack Pearl Harbour, this plan could have worked. Using the real time info we had on USA's war production up untill PH
I think if Germany invaded England and won, taken Ireland also, then there would no where to land in europe. Iceland also. Covered by both captured fleets and Air Support. Europe was in no danger from any country from invasion. And stops supplys to USSR. Full sub fleet, No support available to USSR. Both seas in control of enemy. Finland axis with Germany, because of USSR Invasion.
The Japanese have started there run in Asia, then If a push from both sides of Russia, Japan from the East and the Finish attacking into Leningrad and cut off the northern front with German Soldiers, Then pushed down to Moscow, and to the Oil fields. metting up with German troops all across the 3 Fronts , The USSR would have been busy with enemy on all borders.
Middle east oil fields would be next, and with unlimited supplys of Oil from USSR and Arab oil, Africa be the next target, when in complete domination of Europe, Middle East, Asia and Africa, Germany and Japan would control 2/3 of all the land mass in the world, and 6/8 of the population of thw world. With unlimited supplys of Labour, Oil, Wood, Coal, Gold, metal, iron, and just about everything you can think off.
By this stage the Americans were not involved in the war, Pearl harbour didn't happen yet, so the Americans were not full strength with the Army, and they were not in full gear for war. But with the continuous expansion of Hitler, they would have start increasing the army and navy. America knows that an attack will come, as American borders are surrounded by the enemy.
As with America in full swing and moving up gears, all industry for the axis powers are in War drive, over 6/8 of world population enslaved. Axis decide that South America is next, and Japan will move on to Canada through Alaska, with Canada been taken, and most of the Nazi groups in S America would welcome Germany like Austria. In S America, alot of the wealthy were from German decent.
An aggrement held by all of the countrys in South, Central, and North Americas to Stop Hitler steping foot on any part of any America.
Argentina gives German support, a landing spot with out land casulity, and industry not been distroyed, start the buildup of Armys of Argentina and Germany.
Germany Delclars war on America. The USA in Full Swing now. Some of the countrys in S America decide to axis with Germany fearing what will happen to them after the war, some fight and are dystroyed. Germany is a well trained Army, with constant supplys and good equipment as unlimited supplys gives you the best of everything.
South America is Taken.
Canada are putting up on massive fight, with USA building up forces and sending some to help Canada and South America, homeGuard is created.
With combined forces take Pacific from USA. Atlantic is covered by French, German, British ships from different countys covering USA from Greenland, Iceland, Ireland, to Fortress Europe to Mexico. Japan on the other side.
So Hitler with his new Navy, Aircraft carriers, with help from Japan's navy designers, unlimited resources, This with Combined forces with Japan and all axis Countrys would hold USA on 2 fronts with no help from anyone would eventaly have to fall.
In 1939 out of 100 People in USA. 91 said they wanted to have nothing to do with war in Europe.
In 1940, 85 said the same.
In 1941, before PH, 80 said the same.
Figures could be one or 2 out.
So now if Germany didn't invade USSR, and finished of England, if Japan didn't Attack Pearl Harbour, this plan could have worked. Using the real time info we had on USA's war production up untill PH
I think if Germany invaded England and won, taken Ireland also, then there would no where to land in europe. Iceland also. Covered by both captured fleets and Air Support. Europe was in no danger from any country from invasion. And stops supplys to USSR. Full sub fleet, No support available to USSR. Both seas in control of enemy. Finland axis with Germany, because of USSR Invasion.
The Japanese have started there run in Asia, then If a push from both sides of Russia, Japan from the East and the Finish attacking into Leningrad and cut off the northern front with German Soldiers, Then pushed down to Moscow, and to the Oil fields. metting up with German troops all across the 3 Fronts , The USSR would have been busy with enemy on all borders.
Middle east oil fields would be next, and with unlimited supplys of Oil from USSR and Arab oil, Africa be the next target, when in complete domination of Europe, Middle East, Asia and Africa, Germany and Japan would control 2/3 of all the land mass in the world, and 6/8 of the population of thw world. With unlimited supplys of Labour, Oil, Wood, Coal, Gold, metal, iron, and just about everything you can think off.
By this stage the Americans were not involved in the war, Pearl harbour didn't happen yet, so the Americans were not full strength with the Army, and they were not in full gear for war. But with the continuous expansion of Hitler, they would have start increasing the army and navy. America knows that an attack will come, as American borders are surrounded by the enemy.
As with America in full swing and moving up gears, all industry for the axis powers are in War drive, over 6/8 of world population enslaved. Axis decide that South America is next, and Japan will move on to Canada through Alaska, with Canada been taken, and most of the Nazi groups in S America would welcome Germany like Austria. In S America, alot of the wealthy were from German decent.
An aggrement held by all of the countrys in South, Central, and North Americas to Stop Hitler steping foot on any part of any America.
Argentina gives German support, a landing spot with out land casulity, and industry not been distroyed, start the buildup of Armys of Argentina and Germany.
Germany Delclars war on America. The USA in Full Swing now. Some of the countrys in S America decide to axis with Germany fearing what will happen to them after the war, some fight and are dystroyed. Germany is a well trained Army, with constant supplys and good equipment as unlimited supplys gives you the best of everything.
South America is Taken.
Canada are putting up on massive fight, with USA building up forces and sending some to help Canada and South America, homeGuard is created.
With combined forces take Pacific from USA. Atlantic is covered by French, German, British ships from different countys covering USA from Greenland, Iceland, Ireland, to Fortress Europe to Mexico. Japan on the other side.
So Hitler with his new Navy, Aircraft carriers, with help from Japan's navy designers, unlimited resources, This with Combined forces with Japan and all axis Countrys would hold USA on 2 fronts with no help from anyone would eventaly have to fall.
USAFAUX2004
Active member
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damien435 wrote:
Lets not forget that Canada would make a nice backdoor enterance into the US, Germay could in all likelyhood invade Canada with little resistance and then move towards the US.
That is exactly what I was thinking for invasion, or maybe go to Mexico and agree to give them back the land taken 100 years ago and then screw them over also. I think that if the US was to fight at home they would lose. Lets say that in 1941 Germany takes over England and never attacks the USSR. Now I know for a fact from the books i have read that stalin was planning to attack Germany during the Blitzkrieg on France, but since France fell so soon, Stalin could have stoped. Then the soviets would probably try to build up their forces. Maybe by 1943 Russia would feel confident Enough to attack germany, but by that time all of the German Empire probably would have massive armies build up under the swastica. Russia strikes and because of the forces and technology germany possesses they would be pushed back. (The germans would have jets, better tanks and even better guns such as the MP44) Russia would fall back and hitler would finish them off by 1945 (probably Nuclear weapons tested on Russian Cities) Then a HUGE massacre of the Russian would follow and Hitler would be ready to invade america. In 1946 Hitler Agrees with Mexico to Invade the USA thru the south-western states. The US would not think much about the war in europe, because Britain Fell and the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. The US would have trouble with Japan, because the British were not there and the battle of Guadalcanal was probably lost, the japanese control most of the East Coastline up to India and all the Islands, including Australia. When The Germans Secretly move their armies into Mexico, they prepare to strike the USA by 1947. When in 1947 the US gets attacked it does not know where to find the resources (Human power) to fight. Old Men, Women,Children fight with what ever they have, but by 1949 only pockets of resistance are left. I believe this could be the Scenario of WW2 if the war did not go the way it did
Kirill K wrote:
IMO the German U-boats were very strong at that time and controlled most of the Atlantic Ocean, and would probably stop the US boats, and would gradually push froward towards the coasts of US.
Thats where CAP comes in and bombs the he-l out of the U-boats
Damien435 wrote:
Lets not forget that Canada would make a nice backdoor enterance into the US, Germay could in all likelyhood invade Canada with little resistance and then move towards the US.
That is exactly what I was thinking for invasion, or maybe go to Mexico and agree to give them back the land taken 100 years ago and then screw them over also. I think that if the US was to fight at home they would lose. Lets say that in 1941 Germany takes over England and never attacks the USSR. Now I know for a fact from the books i have read that stalin was planning to attack Germany during the Blitzkrieg on France, but since France fell so soon, Stalin could have stoped. Then the soviets would probably try to build up their forces. Maybe by 1943 Russia would feel confident Enough to attack germany, but by that time all of the German Empire probably would have massive armies build up under the swastica. Russia strikes and because of the forces and technology germany possesses they would be pushed back. (The germans would have jets, better tanks and even better guns such as the MP44) Russia would fall back and hitler would finish them off by 1945 (probably Nuclear weapons tested on Russian Cities) Then a HUGE massacre of the Russian would follow and Hitler would be ready to invade america. In 1946 Hitler Agrees with Mexico to Invade the USA thru the south-western states. The US would not think much about the war in europe, because Britain Fell and the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. The US would have trouble with Japan, because the British were not there and the battle of Guadalcanal was probably lost, the japanese control most of the East Coastline up to India and all the Islands, including Australia. When The Germans Secretly move their armies into Mexico, they prepare to strike the USA by 1947. When in 1947 the US gets attacked it does not know where to find the resources (Human power) to fight. Old Men, Women,Children fight with what ever they have, but by 1949 only pockets of resistance are left. I believe this could be the Scenario of WW2 if the war did not go the way it did
Kirill K wrote:
IMO the German U-boats were very strong at that time and controlled most of the Atlantic Ocean, and would probably stop the US boats, and would gradually push froward towards the coasts of US.
Thats where CAP comes in and bombs the he-l out of the U-boats
WorldWatcher
Active member
Irish said:
If UK was invaded then your figures at the top would be waaay different.Besides it would take a massive amphibious invasion of Britain to take it and would cost Germany alot of troops,weapons,and money. Britain had excellent AA so thats why it was never wiped out in bombings. It also has a powerful navy which could act as a barrier around Britain. The US would start war production as soon as the UK was taken and Germany would seriously have to resupply. Plus dont forget all the guerilla activity going on in France and Britain if they were captured. The Free french forces would also fight for Britain so thats even more troops,tanks and ships.
Also the USSR might invade Germany too. The USSR made the pact mainly because it had to improve it's military. When Barbarossa occured it took Russia by surprise and Germany fought an uncompleted Russian army. Once the Russian army was completed its a very real possibility USSR could declare war on Germany just because of the huge distrust between them. Ireland and Iceland were also neutral nations. If Germany invaded them it sends a signal that none of the neutral nations are safe. That may make Sweden and Turkey possibly side with the USSR if it declared war on Germany.(this is just if's and maybe's because no one knows because it never happened 8) )
Also at that point Japan might have attacked the USSR instead of the USA. Japan would be stopped in Siberia and totally obliterated by the Siberian special forces because they are trained in the environment. Meanwhile while the USSR is putting up a hell of a fight the USA is now strong enough to fight them too so while Germany mass sends troops from the western front to the eastern front, an invasion could be planned. Also don't forget the British forces in Africa and Greece. Those can be handy for an invasion.
That's my input anyways.
:rambo:
The Grill Instructor
Active member
A question that is defenately not easy to answer. Too many "if´s".
- If Keitel wouldn´t have called Hitler "The graetest strategic of all times" after the first victories, would Hitler have taken more time for other countries to invade and concentrate
- If the US would have been the first country to invade, would the US have been prepared for that.
- And what would european countries do in that case.
As I said : too many "if´s" to answer that question, but I think the chances wouldn´t have been that low. Hitler even lost the war against Stalin, but in fact, the train for Stalin to escape from Moscow was ready and Germany almost won that war too.
Too many factors to answer that question for sure.
Just don´t forget the fact that Japan was Germany´s allied and even Japan gave the US a hard time.
- If Keitel wouldn´t have called Hitler "The graetest strategic of all times" after the first victories, would Hitler have taken more time for other countries to invade and concentrate
- If the US would have been the first country to invade, would the US have been prepared for that.
- And what would european countries do in that case.
As I said : too many "if´s" to answer that question, but I think the chances wouldn´t have been that low. Hitler even lost the war against Stalin, but in fact, the train for Stalin to escape from Moscow was ready and Germany almost won that war too.
Too many factors to answer that question for sure.
Just don´t forget the fact that Japan was Germany´s allied and even Japan gave the US a hard time.
Damien435
Active member
The Grill Instructor said:
The United States in WWII decided that Germany was the greater threat and that Hitler needed to be defeated first, so we focused most of our attentin on Germany while Japan was allowed to do basically whatever they wanted in the eastern Pacific. We were fighting a two front war and focusing on defeating Germany first, only after it became obvious that Germany was going to be defeated did the United States start shpping troops from Germany to the Pacific.
Something interesting we learned about Japan, in 1940 this was how they thought of the world's super powers.
1. Japan
2. Germany
3. United States
They could have been right, but they under estimated the resolve of America, which is something I think many people today do also, a lot of people say stuff like "America is to scared to attack country X." but yet we have a history of pulling together in tough times and being victorious in the end.
The Grill Instructor
Active member
Damien435 said:
1. Many Nations underestimated Germany in those times.
2. What if Germany would have been invented the A-Bomb first ?
3. How long could the war against Japan have been taken without the A-Bomb ?
4. If Germany would have never been invaded the USSR and England would have been fallen (like your first posting said), Germany would have been able to rebuild it´s airforce and also never had material losses like occured in the fight against the USSR, also more sources for research and technical improvement.
Damien435 said:
Remeber Vietnam ? Another Nation that was underestimated by the US.....victorious in the end ? I heard other stories
Alot of scenarios about the end of ww2 are possible. History have shown us, that America and Hitler have at least one thing in common : The believe in their undefeatable nation. Both already found out that they´re wrong.
T.G.I.
Damien435
Active member
The Grill Instructor said:Remeber Vietnam ? Another Nation that was underestimated by the US.....victorious in the end ? I heard other stories
Alot of scenarios about the end of ww2 are possible. History have shown us, that America and Hitler have at least one thing in common : The believe in their undefeatable nation. Both already found out that they´re wrong.
T.G.I.
About Vietnam, America was not united in seeing victory in the end, most American's didn't even want to be involved with that part of the world, and that was not a military defeat, if all that had mattered was our army against theres it would not been a NC, no contest, but no, we had hippies in America, incredibly biased reporters on the ground in Vietnam, and all this was over a country thousands of miles away that most American's had never heard of before. Vietnam was a political loss, not a military defeat, when we finally got that big victory we needed to defeat the VC we were told by the reporters that it was a great loss for America, the Viet Cong suffered as high as 80% casualties duing the Tet offensive and yet that battle that was an American victory was the decisive battle of the war.
Am I the only one here who thinks that the world would be better off if the press would be a little more responsible in their reporting? I have heard WWII vets say that if the media during WWII was the same as the media today we would have lost that war.
CABAL
Active member
There have been numerous brilliant but yet controversial scientists working for Nazis Germany during that time. Their new "miracle" weapons", as Hitler have put it, might turn the tide of the war. But, it's debatable.
During the end of the war, Hitler's objectives shifted from military targets to Civilian targets.
Here is an outline:
1. There were plans for a Ramjet aircraft reaching to the edge of the outer atmosphere and will deliver it's nuclear payload detonating at several kilometers above New York City/Chicago to increase the effect. However, this plan was immediately discontinued because of limited resources and the Allied Advance.
2. During the late years of World War II, experiments with guided rockets and missiles were at it's infancy. However German scienstists and pilots worked out a more suicidal approach in creating a long range guided missile. The V-2/V-3 Rocket was later converted into an aircraft. From there, the voluntered pilots would guide the aircraft onto the specific target. This is similar to the Japanese Cherry Blossom but has a more advanced rocket propulsion system that have given longer range for the convereted V-2. Again, this project have been cancelled because of the the death of the first test pilot.
3. You think the American B-2 was pure American design? No. The Horton Brothers have ingenuisly built their first prototype based on German Sailplanes. Since sailplanes have a wide wingspan and does not require an abundant amount of fuel to travel at certain distances, the idea of sending squadrons of this type of aircraft and shower destruction upon American Industrial Cities appeals to Hitler. With the aide of Jet Propulsion, the distance would certainly be increased dramatically and can make a round trip from Germany to America. The Horton Brother's prototype was an ideal weapon to conduct their bombing missions...quite possibily in America. However, the first prototype was destroyed due to technical difficulties with one of the engines failing to re-ignite that made the aircraft spun out of control and crash.
If these three type of weapons have been in full production along with Atomic Weapons at their disposal, the Nazis would indeed shower unspeakable destruction among the Allied Cities forcing them to abdicate. Fortunetly, it never happened.
During the end of the war, Hitler's objectives shifted from military targets to Civilian targets.
Here is an outline:
1. There were plans for a Ramjet aircraft reaching to the edge of the outer atmosphere and will deliver it's nuclear payload detonating at several kilometers above New York City/Chicago to increase the effect. However, this plan was immediately discontinued because of limited resources and the Allied Advance.
2. During the late years of World War II, experiments with guided rockets and missiles were at it's infancy. However German scienstists and pilots worked out a more suicidal approach in creating a long range guided missile. The V-2/V-3 Rocket was later converted into an aircraft. From there, the voluntered pilots would guide the aircraft onto the specific target. This is similar to the Japanese Cherry Blossom but has a more advanced rocket propulsion system that have given longer range for the convereted V-2. Again, this project have been cancelled because of the the death of the first test pilot.
3. You think the American B-2 was pure American design? No. The Horton Brothers have ingenuisly built their first prototype based on German Sailplanes. Since sailplanes have a wide wingspan and does not require an abundant amount of fuel to travel at certain distances, the idea of sending squadrons of this type of aircraft and shower destruction upon American Industrial Cities appeals to Hitler. With the aide of Jet Propulsion, the distance would certainly be increased dramatically and can make a round trip from Germany to America. The Horton Brother's prototype was an ideal weapon to conduct their bombing missions...quite possibily in America. However, the first prototype was destroyed due to technical difficulties with one of the engines failing to re-ignite that made the aircraft spun out of control and crash.
If these three type of weapons have been in full production along with Atomic Weapons at their disposal, the Nazis would indeed shower unspeakable destruction among the Allied Cities forcing them to abdicate. Fortunetly, it never happened.
EagleZtrike
Active member
German navy wasn't all that powerful I think. The United States fleet had a better advantage I think.