Combat vets and non-combat vets

I'm trying Micha... I'm really trying.

"Mais c'est difficile, je ne peux voir tes yeux d'ici ma douce."
But I will keep searching for light.

That's some nice French there, by the way. Sweet...

Sorry guys, didnt mean to bust your balls or anything... Just trying to have a friendly conversation, forgive the civy I am if I said something distasteful... Just trying to understand.
 
I have absolutely no problem with you trying to understand. I'm very happy when one is legitimately curious about the endeavors of those that are in the military. I really try to tell it the way I see it from my education and from my experience. Understand though, that sometimes some of these issues are quite hot button issues for some of us because they are VERY personal.

I apologize if I have come as abrasive to you, I can see that you are genuinely curious. You must understand that in the military there is kind of an unwritten rule that when it comes to combat....actual combat vets experience trumps anything a book or outside experience says. For a frontline soldier, combat is probably the most significant, personal, and emotional experience that they have ever endured. It is simply beyond comprehension for those that have not experienced it. Therefore it is expremely hard to explain and extremely hard to relate to unless you have been through it.

I can talk to my buddies that I served with in combat about things that I can't even talk to my wife about....she just wouldn't understand...and trust me, she HAS REALLY tried to. I can't explain it. Can anyone else here vocalize this better than me please?
 
No doubt I’m going to piss off LeMask, but I suspect he is trying too hard to convince us and he feels guilty about not serving (or maybe he tried and couldn’t get in). I’m a Army vet of 25 years, including Viet Nam. I came from a upper middle class family with practically no history of military service, I went to college (in S. Calif) from High School and was disillusioned and bored, especially by the anti war, anti military and anti US rhetoric which somehow came into every class.
After I went on active duty I went back to school and I agree that experience reflects on the higher education process, it is great to call out those far left Professors and the students who follow them like lemmings.
I also spent several years as a bartender and bouncer in Texas Nightclubs, anybody who readily admits to being “a normal civilian” who has “kicked ass in several bar fights” and being “wounded several times” has problems beyond what we are addressing, even if he were a Cop. I think maybe he has seen too many movies.
As to equating education to intelligence - makes me wonder how there could have been smart people before there were schools? How did those dumb, uneducated hillbillies and rednecks win so many wars? I read history and I know that few of their leaders went to Ivy League Universities.
Even now neither of our Presidents colleges allow ROTC on campus.

“Human beings didn’t evolve brains in order to lie around...killings the first thing we learned. And a good thing we did, or we’d be dead, and the tigers would own the earth. “ Orson Scott Card, ENDERS GAME
 
Combat Vets if they want to speak of their trials at all don't want to discuss it with non combat vets. and they can tell almost immediately who is faking. There are a lot of fakers out there going all the way back to WWI.
The thousands of men and women did jobs, which may have been done in a "combat Zone" but were not "combat". A mess attendant, while performing a vital task, is not a combat soldier merely because he does he job in a Combat Zone.
Finance and Administrative soldiers are absolutely vital for many reasons and they function in a combat zone, but they are not combat soldiers, we must have
Truck drivers but unless they come under fire, dismount and engage a enemy they are not combat soldiers.
Of course these line are sometimes crossed and a cook, or a clerk or truck diver becomes a combat soldier, but this is the exception not the rule.
Go into most any VFW and count the Viet Nam Vets, ask them how many of them were in combat and match that to the total. Keep in mind that for every combat soldier in Viet Nam at least 10 were behind him for support.
This also applies to the Air Force and Navy in Viet Nam. If the Air Force guy was enlisted it’s likely he'll claim to be an Air Commando. Navy Em were all in the "boats" on the waterways - not on one of the scores of ship offshore in relative safety
Read history, and beware of “war storied” most of them are not true. More than half of guys who claim to have been in Viet Nam are lying. Yet many time the purveyors of the tales have told them for so long and so many times that they, themselves, believe the stories.

"In the final choice a soldier’s pack is not so heavy a burden as a prisoner’s chains." D.D. Eisenhower
 
Again, we are talking about so many things... Easy to get mixed up.

muscogeemike, I dont know... Honestly, If I feel guilty for not serving? I dont think so. Serving who? Joining what army?

I dont believe in nations and governments. So joining a government and taking an oath to protect a nation or following a government's orders isnt an option for me. It's true, I would be court martialed in my first week.

I think that you got me wrong here. But what you said next proves that you were on target at some point.
I went to college and learned about other cultures, about history... And this anti-US rhetoric works on me... In fact, I'm not anti US. I'm Pro-US. I'm as pro-US as they come. But I'm anti-Western Imperialism. I'm anti-colonization. I'm for true democracy. I'm for true politics. I'm for cultural diversity. And I'm an extremist when it comes to protect the poor classes from the upper classes and their capitalist BS ideal...

But most of you guys are anti-Us without even knowing... There is the historic USA, the USA of the constitution... And the US lying in bed with Saudis to get some oil...

There is the hard working America... And then there is financial America, making money out of nothing...

If you dont see the difference between these twos... Then you are a poor American. Even a Taliban could make a better American in these conditions.

This is it, there is honest people and there is SOBs... And I could have joined if I found a Honest people army fighting SOBs... Damn man, I would be the eager type who gets shot in the first seconds... The advantage is that you wouldnt have to listen to me speaking about justice... As you would think that it's annoying and naive... But hell, good for you if you find some peace.

And about the bar fights... That was the point. I never claimed that... I just said that I didnt have to prove myself to join a discussion... Some disagree...
Do I need a violence résumé to be accepted? I dont have enough experience? I have to join a battle to speak up? The little experience I had with violence isnt enough?

For me it's ridiculous... Maybe that I dont have the experience to understand what they meant... Maybe... But I still think it's too bizarre for my little mind. And if it's me being naive... Show some tolerance. Do you get angry when you see a naive kid?

I have no problem with you opinions, but when it comes to the attitude... I just cant handle that...

muscogeemike, if you care about history sir. Know that it was proven that semi-civilized people are the best when it comes to wage warfare and win a battle.
There is many interesting scientific papers on that.
From the Arab/Muslim invasions to your hill-billies...

But I really want to know how these hillbillies could win a battle in the information Era we are in. How to use a satellite link when you cant read? I really want to know if this historic rule still applies.

And I dont want a society of cowards... I want a society with faith in the fight agaisnt crime and corruption. For me, mankind will never achieve this everlasting peace, or this global order... It will never happen, violence is part of us. Some people will fail in respecting the law, and we will have to stop them. But in these days, we installed the corrupt people at the top, and they send honest people at the bottom to fight each others...

And I'm aware about lies... But I respect the liars who do that to get some attention from a lady...
I think it's part of the game ^^
 
LeMask said:
But I really want to know how these hillbillies could win a battle in the information Era we are in. How to use a satellite link when you cant read? I really want to know if this historic rule still applies.
Click to expand...

You should read up on the Millennium Challenge and what happened there, it's fairly interesting.
 
LeMask said:
Again, we are talking about so many things... Easy to get mixed up.

muscogeemike, I dont know... Honestly, If I feel guilty for not serving? I dont think so. Serving who? Joining what army?

I dont believe in nations and governments. So joining a government and taking an oath to protect a nation or following a government's orders isnt an option for me. It's true, I would be court martialed in my first week.

I think that you got me wrong here. But what you said next proves that you were on target at some point.
I went to college and learned about other cultures, about history... And this anti-US rhetoric works on me... In fact, I'm not anti US. I'm Pro-US. I'm as pro-US as they come. But I'm anti-Western Imperialism. I'm anti-colonization. I'm for true democracy. I'm for true politics. I'm for cultural diversity. And I'm an extremist when it comes to protect the poor classes from the upper classes and their capitalist BS ideal...

But most of you guys are anti-Us without even knowing... There is the historic USA, the USA of the constitution... And the US lying in bed with Saudis to get some oil...

There is the hard working America... And then there is financial America, making money out of nothing...

If you dont see the difference between these twos... Then you are a poor American. Even a Taliban could make a better American in these conditions.

This is it, there is honest people and there is SOBs... And I could have joined if I found a Honest people army fighting SOBs... Damn man, I would be the eager type who gets shot in the first seconds... The advantage is that you wouldnt have to listen to me speaking about justice... As you would think that it's annoying and naive... But hell, good for you if you find some peace.

And about the bar fights... That was the point. I never claimed that... I just said that I didnt have to prove myself to join a discussion... Some disagree...
Do I need a violence résumé to be accepted? I dont have enough experience? I have to join a battle to speak up? The little experience I had with violence isnt enough?

For me it's ridiculous... Maybe that I dont have the experience to understand what they meant... Maybe... But I still think it's too bizarre for my little mind. And if it's me being naive... Show some tolerance. Do you get angry when you see a naive kid?

I have no problem with you opinions, but when it comes to the attitude... I just cant handle that...

muscogeemike, if you care about history sir. Know that it was proven that semi-civilized people are the best when it comes to wage warfare and win a battle.
There is many interesting scientific papers on that.
From the Arab/Muslim invasions to your hill-billies...

But I really want to know how these hillbillies could win a battle in the information Era we are in. How to use a satellite link when you cant read? I really want to know if this historic rule still applies.

And I dont want a society of cowards... I want a society with faith in the fight agaisnt crime and corruption. For me, mankind will never achieve this everlasting peace, or this global order... It will never happen, violence is part of us. Some people will fail in respecting the law, and we will have to stop them. But in these days, we installed the corrupt people at the top, and they send honest people at the bottom to fight each others...

And I'm aware about lies... But I respect the liars who do that to get some attention from a lady...
I think it's part of the game ^^
Click to expand...

Because speed bump. It takes a man with a rifle to hold freakin ground and close with and destroy the enemy tech missed.
 
I believe that every nation/human group have a number of men capable of being good soldiers.

The big difference is often the technique used and technology available.

It takes men to hold the ground, it's true. But even the infantry can enjoy the technology. From thermal vision and all the high tech sensors to CAS that give them the ability to ask for the gods of death to land on their enemies...

There was a documentary speaking about how an Iraqi unit tried to use the cover of a sandstorm to engage US troops in the beginning of the war.
Took some serious balls and brains to use the sandstorm as cover to engage the enemy...

But the US troops asked for air support and the Air Force dropped some smart bomb capable of finding its target in a sand storm... A single drop neutralized the whole attacking Iraqi unit.

You can have all the balls and brains you want... When it's impossible...

And soon, there will be tools to hold the ground without putting boots in harm's way.
Intelligent mines with sensors, unmanned combat vehicles, unmanned turrets etc...
 
You want the benefits of a society, but none if the personal responsibilities.
Weare born with a sort of social contract.
You make too much out of separating roles-society is a cooperative effort.
Those who choose to take without giving anything back are generally known as freeloaders and not highly regarded.
There is no existing perfect society, most of us just do as best we can to help maintain it.

I think you are starved for attention and strive for the beatings you get here with the unrealistic premises you post.
Feeding trolls.
 
Yeah, but if I put a gun on your head and force you to sign a contract, this contract have no value.

Same for the social contract. If I have no other choice but to accept it. Then I refuse it as a principle.

Give me a viable alternative, and I will accept it. And yes mate, I rather live in the Far West than in such a world.
And of course I will use the system I live under actually. Damn right I will take the benefits, it would be stupid to do otherwhise.

And welcome mate in a democratic world, it's a world of conflicts and opinions.

And many things can seem ridiculous. They thought that Columbus was a fool. That he was going to fall from the planet...

The Spanish wasted millions of people in South America thinking they are soulless apes we could kill without punishment.

A lot of **** happens because some people dont see how wrong it is... Slavery, genocide etc etc...

And I add national borders and nations to the list. And many other things... They call me an anarchist, but I dont think I am.

Call me crazy, freeloaders, or whatever you want... Even attention *****. In fact, I like this one. It's funny to call people that in a forum.

Yeah, go to a forum, and call everybody a troll and an attention *****. Everybody would shut up, to not get any attention. And let people agree with each others, to not be called trolls.

Wow, you are genius. Please, do that in a parliament. If someone says "may I speak" Call him an attention junky... And if someone speaks about a sensitive topic, call him a troll...

It would be hilarious. And then call me a disturbed person. I beg you to do that.
 
Good for you, LeMask, get all you can while you can, somebody else can pay your way.

There is the hard working America... And then there is financial America, making money out of nothing...


To this - “If you believe that when the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, than you believe that creating wealth cause poverty, and you’re an idiot.” Michael Medved

I don’t believe in nations and governments. So joining a government and taking an oath to protect a nation or following a government's orders isn’t an option for me. It's true, I would be court martialed in my first week.


No, I'm not a military, and I dont want to be a military. Because It's against my principles. I dont understand why should I join a government organ to fight troublemakers... I believe in independence, I dont want to join a government force.

This attitude is becoming all too prevalent in the US. So called citizens feel entitled to all the benefits of a free society without any obligation. This has happened to every civilization throughout history, and foretells the downfall of that civilization.

I'm for true democracy.

The US is not a Democracy, it is a Democratic Republic. The founding fathers were aware that where ever “true democracy” has been attempted the result has been disaster. Good examples are now in the news daily. In Europe the “people” have voted themselves entitlements to the extent their countries are collapsing (which I guess pleases you).

But I really want to know how these hillbillies could win a battle in the information Era we are in. How to use a satellite link when you cant read? I really want to know if this historic rule still applies.


I don’t quite understand what your are trying to communicate here. Are all who have served in the military “hillbillies”? Are all who serve now “hillbillies”? Do you assume I’m a “hillbilly”? If you assume this due to my ID, “muscogeemike”, you are mistaken. Muscogee identifies a group of Native American people and this is how I use it. I am a member of the Muscogee Nation and if I am a “poor American”, as you say, at least I’m a Native American.

And there is a difference between a man and the same man after years of academic training. A soldier who went to war after high-school is a dumb-ass compared to himself after some year in an university
And science, told us that dumb people are fragile people. They get confused easily. Their minds arent trained to handle informations..

I’m not going to state the obvious – but use another quote “Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by education.” Bertrand Russell

 
Can you please tell me what do you mean by "pay your way"?

If you mean military service, know that if I try to equip myself to war and to join a battle, I would be arrested, as it is illegal.
You cant do much at the individual level. You always have to submit like a slave to someone before doing anything that matters.

And tough luck, I'm a free man, I dont stand in attention in front of officers. I'm poorly disciplined, I refuse orders as a principle. I dont trust other people to follow them, I ask for proofs and believe just what I can see and hear.

If you are speaking about economy and finances. I'm doing my part. In fact, I'm working hard on isolating myself from the rest of society. Until then, I'm using the system like everybody else. And you cant blame me, as there is no other alternative.

And creating wealth out of nothing, is in fact creating poverty. In fact, it's stealing.

I'm not an American. Even if I feel like one. I believe in the principles that founded this proud country they call the USA. But now, the USA I knew is dead... Way before I was born in fact.

If a "true democracy" cant exist... Then let's return to the savage state then. Death before dishonor, ever heard of that?

I didnt call anybody a hillbilly... I just asked how can a "hillbilly" (stereotype of a backward racist farmer with a rifle and bad teeth) achieve anything in this information Era.

And nice quote from Bertrand Russell. But, speaking of stating the obvious, it doesnt mean that education turns people into idiots.

I believe that we are in the information Era. We need smart people. People with education, a good ability to question their vision of the world etc...
Micha gave us links of a Chinese officer talking about how the Chinese forces are evolving. They said that officers who went through an academic training learn and adapt faster.

And in our era, where the battlefield can change very quickly... This ability to adapt is very important.

and muscogeemike have no meaning for me whatsoever. I didnt pull any conclusion from that. So take it easy chief. Didnt mean any disrespect whatsoever.

This is a room for confrontation of ideas...
 
@Lemask:

I didnt call anybody a hillbilly... I just asked how can a "hillbilly" (stereotype of a backward racist farmer with a rifle and bad teeth) achieve anything in this information Era.

Does a backward rascist deserve a place in a society that believes every man is created equal? I say no. You may claim they are entitled to thier freedom of this view; I just cannot respect that opinion.

However, back to the subject of combat vets and non-combat vets. I can see both sides of the argument for people who are in service today. I have seen a fellow officer dodge a deployment. I find that atrocious as you have signed up to be in the military and must understand the requierments of this service. On the other side, my unit has recieved orders twice in the last year and subsequently had them cancelled. Granted, people in this situation have not gaied the experience of combat, but this cannot be held against them because of personell managment issues.

As for people serving today who have deployed versuses people serving when there were no wars going on. I see no difference between people who were not able to deploy today and had no quam with up holding their duty and people who have deployed.
 
There is a lot of rivalry between Cbt Vets and Non Cbt Vets. I believe that this rivalry comes from jelousy that goes both ways. Even people who join the Military to be Mechanics join to be a soldier first. When deployed overseas and left behind as the Cbt Troops go out to get the "glory", to some degree they are jeleous and resentful that the other guys are getting all the press while they are doing their best to support the efforts from the rear.

Meen while all the Cbt Troops see is the perks in the rear that they are not getting up front. Mattresses, Tim Horton's Coffee, one day off a week and frequent phone calls back home. When the troops do get back in the friction starts, big time! The resentment both ways seems to fuel the others hate. It's not that the combat troop can't see the need for Logistics, They just don't understand the need for as many Logistics as there seems to be behind them. They appreciate the guys that are doing something for them, but the rest are useless in their minds.

I got to be a neutral observed of the hate on my last tour. After being flown back into KAF by an American Blackhawk, I spent 29 Days with little or no duties while the surgeons removed peices of Toyota from places they shouldn't have been. I saw the worst of both sides. I saw Cbt Arms treating the Rear Ech like they owed them something, and I also saw some in the Rear Ech that didn't realise there was a war on. "It's after 1600hrs, come back tommorow." After leaving the Orthopedic Surgeon's Office after my final check up I had to report to the Canadian Medics to tell them what the Doc had said. (Dutch Doc at the International Hospital) The Medic on Reception at the time didn't even look up when I came in. I had never seen her before and I asked to see the Doc. Her response was that "Sick Parade was over", I asked to see the Doc again and was handed a bunch of paper work to fill out. Never mind that I had shrapnel in my right hand, arm and chest, I sat down and filled it out. Took a while but it was ledgible. It said "Blown Up By IED, Please Help". The medic actually looked at me for the first time, saw all the stitches and burns and I was in the Doc's office within the same minute.

I don't remember what any of the people that patched me back together looked like. I don't remember the name of the Supply Tech that got me dressed again after they burned all my gear. I don't remember the Officer who handed me a phone and told me to call my wife. But I remember that Medic. And there for I painted my reality with a negitive brush. It's sad to say, but one negitive experience at the rear and they're all a bunch of idiots.

But the reality was that when I went out, I was in an Leopard Main Battle Tank. I had fuel, bullets and 4" of armour, all delivered by some Log type in a 10 ton with 1/2" of kevlar. If anything, this man was braver than anyone of us. Sure he only came out a couple times a week, but he used the same roads I drove over in a tank. The Medics that carried me off the chopper never said a word about my 225lb fat a## as they carried me off the airfield or that it was 0200 in the morning. The clerks were nervous wrechs by the time I got out of surgery, they were so worried. Why do we hate them? Because we are jealous, that's all.
 
Conditions are different for non-combat soldiers. If you are an infantryman you normally have no bed to sleep in, no clean clothes, no protection from the rain, no hot food, you carry a weapon at all times, and are much more likely to be killed or injured than a soldier in the rear just to name a few. Such are the terms and I would not have it otherwise. I myself have chosen this profession. I love the primitiveness associated with being in the infantry. I'm not jealous.

I don’t want to make light of anyone's job in a war zone. All had dangerous moments in Iraq and Afghanistan and they were all necessary to get the job done. There are cowboys who herd cattle, mend fence and brand cattle and there are those who compete in bull riding. Both are in the same profession but one has a much more dangerous job. Every veteran of war played an integral part in the mission but if you look at the list of dead and wounded you will find the majority of casualties come from a small handful of MOS's.

I can only shake my head at those who have not been in combat that have an attitude and behave like Ass****s and tell you that you're not special because now you're on my territory. And if you talk the talk but never walk the walk, then I don’t bother to spend time on it. What matters to me is the comrades who have been out there with me and we don’t need respect from others. We need not talk about it - we just look each other in the eyes and we know. All of you who have seen combat will understand. Those who have not will ever understand. Therein lays the big difference in my opinion. I am fully aware that I can’t do my job without the support I receive and we are all a cog in a big machine. That we sometimes become frustrated is linked with the fact that if something fails in the hinterland then it’s my ass that may be in danger. But that's it. I could just have chosen a different MOS
 
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You're right of course. The people who risk their lives every day deserve allot of credit. So let's here it for the Engineers and Medics, who by pecertage of boots on ground, have suffered more than any other in the War on Terrorism. Let's here it for the Armour Recce Units, the highest rate of injury or death per capita on my last tour. Lets here it for the Tank Crews, enduring 65+ degree temperatures every day trying to shield thier charges from the full effects of enemy action. Not to mention acheiving the highest percentage of confirmeds on my last tour. Let`s here it for the guy who drove the fuel hauler, I hope he can walk again someday. Let`s here it for all the people who put themselves in harms way, they are many, and most are not infantry. Yes the Infantry have received the most dead or wounded, but they out number the other trades in the field. Canadian Armoured Crewmen have lost 10 Comrades in Afghanistan, 7% of our loses, dispite only being 5% of the boots on the ground.
 
Well lots of good feedback here. So many different views on this touchy subject.

I am sure we can all come to an agreement on one thing though, a movie depicting soldiers in war time will always sell more than depicting them in peace time.

So I say we argue some more about our seperate plights and hopefully somebody takes notice, turns it into a book or movie and watch the stoic public nod and shed a fake tear over our plight for the duration of the story.

Once they finish their popcorn after the ending they will go back to not caring again and wondering whose next up on American Idol.

Nobody really cares about my story, your story or the story you heard from a friend of a friend. You decided to put on that helmet, live with the consequances. Listening to war stories from new guys I meet around the Army doesn't spark my interest anymore. Everybody got a story, join the f__king club.
 
It's hard to relate to if you haven´t been there. Our stories often seem surreal to most people.

I'm still listening to veterans' stories. Just listening can be enough for them. There are still many that have scars on their souls and can I help just a little bit by listening, then I do.

Otherwise it´s; been there, done that!
 
We had a rough go my last tour. We Lost 26 Comrades in our 6 months. We were under the Command 4 Differant Infantry Companies during the 6 Month Tour. We got along well with 3 of the Companies, but the last Company treated us like SH##.

It was while we were with that Company that I went on my 29 day "Vacation" at the Inter-National Hospital. At the end of the Tour the OC of the "Fun" Infantry Company bragged that he hadn't lost a single soldier under his command. This was a very touchy subject, and something he should have known better than to brag about. But he didn't stop there, he went on to say that every man that had been injured while under his watch had been injured because they were out of shape.

I'm not sure if a faster running pace would have really helped me dodge a 1 Ton VBIED full of Propane, but I do know that we did not feel part of "His Team". There were a lot of MOS there on that Mission. Yes, the Infantry out numbered the other trades, but we were all there together. But that Company really had a way of pointing out that we weren't Infantry. I know that it was really just the opinion of their command but you could taste the poison whenever you worked with them. If we can't even co-operate together as Fellow Combat Arms Soldiers, then no wonder the support trades feel that they are not respected. We were all there together, and we are all Vets. Yes, some of us have differant stories, but we all went into harms way to some degree.

As for the soldiers that stayed back and did not deploy outside Canada, they are not Vets, and I beleive that none of them would say they were. Let's face it, anyone who wears the uniform would have to much pride to pretend that they were there. The people out there that are pretending were either never in the Military, or were released soon after the joined as unworthy. They were unworthy for a reason, and their current actions demonstrate this point.
 
I'm feeling the "infantry sting" right now. It's actually quite funny.We're ripping with an infantry battalion right now and they have a pretty big attitude about an FA unit replacing them. What's funny is that my Battery is taking over their entire Battalions AO....One of their PLs called me a pog yesterday. He didn't have the balls to say it while out on mission...he waited until right before we cleared our weapons at the gate. It doesn't matter what you do it seems...to some people, they're just better in their minds than you. He was cocky because he spent a 11 months in Iraq as a PL...with beds...and AC....and a kickass DFAC...and internet....and cell phones....who's the pog again? Since I pointed that out I was especially pogish...lol...All I know is that while we're bickering....the Airforce people living next to me in the much better quarters are laughing at us and complaining about the occasional smell of crap....it's all relative.

Koponkof is right...in the end...those who are oblivious really don't care. And those that do care don't want to talk about it. It's hard to care when there is no vested interest in it.
 
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