Chinese invasion on Taiwan

[xman]

@Flyingfrog

Flyingfrog,

Taiwan would be independent forever whether on paper or not.
Americans will make big show and message for this.
Seven aircrafts are huge power indeed.
Before, I posted to you about this forces to care.
This is a very serious situation.Again, It is a big message for you.

Flyingfrog, forget Taiwan.
Adding Taiwan to your land is not necessary.
You have also a big land.Take it easy.Right?

 

[FlyingFrog]

lol

your posts are simply amuzing :lol:

well, i believe you can talk anything you like nobody can prove it is BS or wrong, because there is no war so we can not judge.

One thing is for sure if war breaks out:
Taiwan will be completely destroyed, so don't underestimate Taiwanese, , they are not stupid as someone may wish

 

[FlyingFrog]

To talk about Taiwan issue, we should have a map of taiwan here

So people may have no clue where to find Taiwan on map :lol:

This is fun, the map of Taiwan put there as the dot :lol:

China readies for war over Taiwan Strait

Beijing is considering appointing military officers to top posts in Fujian province, which is the nearest to Taiwan

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/eyeoneastasia/story/0,4395,257840,00.html

 

[Biantai]

As someone who has lived many years in Taiwan, and studied this country extensively, I can tell you that there is a lot of misinformation by PRC posters, and others, in this thread.

For example:

As for Taiwan, Chinese settlement in Taiwan can be tracked as early as 230 BC according the historical documents, and in 1335 BC the China set up its administration in Taiwan and had the sovereignty of Taiwan. From 1895 to 1945, Taiwan was occupied by Japan by military aggression. Since 1945, Taiwan has again been a part of China, and even though the present US also admit this point and have no doubt!!

These dates, are just plain wrong, as any reading of history texts will tell you. Chinese traders and temporary settlers began arriving in Taiwan in very small numbers only after about 1300AD. Significant migration only occured after Dutch colonisation in the early 17th century. Taiwan became a part of the (Chinese) Qing Dynasty at the end of the 17th century, and remained so until 1895.

The Japanese held sovereignty over Taiwan from 1895 relinquishing it after WW2, but power was never transferred to another Nation. The people of Taiwan at that time were a few non-ethnic Chinese Aborigines and a majortiy population descended from settlers from Southern China (but with a lot of mixed Aborigine blood). The Nationalist KMT took over Taiwan after the Japanese left, and upon loosing the Chinese civil war with the communists, a great number of Northern Chinese settled in Taiwan (making up around 15% of the population). While the KMT government claimed to be the legitimate government of 'China', Taiwan was not a part of the PRC for even one day.

Now Taiwan is a democratic country which no longer claims to govern China. The name is still the Republic of China, as changing the name to Taiwan is recognised as one of the actions that would trigger a war with China. Public opinion in Taiwan is very clear in the fact that the majority of people do not want Taiwan to become part of the PRC, but neither do they want to start a war by declaring independence.

Although Taiwan is unable to declare independence, it is quite obvious that it is an independent country. It elects all its leaders, no other nation receives taxes from it, exercises military contorl over it, shares a currency, shares common laws, has an open immigration policy etc. In no way can Taiwan be called a part of China. That the PRC government wants it to be a part of China does not make it so.

 

[Doc.S]

What PLA seems to be missing in airforce capacity they got up-to-date cutting-edge SAM and AA to compensate for as Pen Lung 9 surface to air missiles or state of the art S-300 SAM and russian built SA-15 Gauntlet systems with SA-15B Tor-M1 missiles. That was something Iraq was missing complete in both Desertstorm as in Iraqi Freedom. Then you have Desert terrain vs Chines/Taiwan terrain, and I have read history and can see that the Korean war and the Vietnam war have two things in common.

They both had great number of airforce casualties. And there is a lot of dead young americans. I would not be to self-assured when it comes to the airforce alone ability to win a war like this one. The airwar yes the americans would probaebly win if they can have any planes in the air that is. But a war on the ground? Well there is a big difference there. You would need a coalition two or three times bigger then Desertstorm and that is something I have hard to see US manage on their own in these days.

That is another reason why I don´t think there will be any skirmish between China and US. There would not be sufficent with men to fight a war like that. Well a lot of compulsory military service men then but that would be greater numbers of deaths then americans are ready to loose. It would be a political suicide. And if Nukes would be involved the whole war is death sentence anyway. Pakistan, India, Israel, North Korea, Iran, Russia, lot´s of countries there that would be involved in more nukes and we would live our last days in this world in a state of atomic winter I think. Because every country that has a renegade plan they would start it up. It´s all there in the history books but yes we all also know that humans are kind of a repeating box when it comes to war. They never learn do they? :| :lol:

Cheers:
Doc.S

:viking:

 

[FlyingFrog]

These dates, are just plain wrong, as any reading of history texts will tell you. Chinese traders and temporary settlers began arriving in Taiwan in very small numbers only after about 1300AD.

BianTai:

The original post claimed 1350 BC, it was just a typo, the guy meant 1350 AD actually

Well, ROC is indeed an independent country, called Republic of China, nothing wrong with it.

Since the people in Taiwan would not choose the direction of declaring independence, so just think about: independent of what? Obviously the CHINA to which they are dependent.

PRC (People's Republic of China)'s idea of ONE CHINA is: Mainland + Taiwan.

Oh yes, ROC (Taiwan) still claims Outer-Mongolia as part of CHINA

 

[FlyingFrog]

One thing just comes up to my mind:
I think USA wil abandon Taiwan when the real war is started.
Just like 25 years USA abandoned their ally Taiwan to choose Communist PRC to establish diplomatic relationship.

If you are really an Ally of some country, you shouldn't abandon them at all. I really doubt what USA's "promise" to Taiwan security. They can abandon you once, then they can abandon you twice.

I just hope people in Taiwan will stay smart now, just make their economy good and have a happy life, don't be used by others like a fool.

 

[SAINT]

It dosent matter. Even if the entire Chinese air-defence will be at the scene(highly unlikly) its not a match to the USAF.

Agree... :rambo:






"Carlos, Master Terrorist"

 

[SHERMAN]

Allright...I dont want to go into this again but oh well.....

SAMs are not a good solution for having bearaly-flight-worthy aircraft. Look at the Syrians in 1982. Look at the massive Iraqi system in 1991...All those SAMs are just no good when the other side has B2s and F117s punching holes through the radar cover. The Korea war had high amonts of Airforce casualties because the US fought some of the war with lousy equipment. The USSR sent its best pilots in brand new Mig-15s and gave a good fight...But still the USAF achived a high kill ratio by the end of the war, when the Siber jets came in....Oh, and the USA won...Vietnam is diffrent....Here we have the very first use of massive SAM systems in a war....The americans learned the lessons and now have the trainning and hardware to match modern SAMs.


Anyways, this all dosent matter...The Chinese still cantassamble a big enough fleet to carry the bulk of the Chinese army across the strights. The Chinese cant use their entire army against the US, they might them selves with a very opertuntist Russian Bear crashing down on them....Not to speak of India....They simply are not up to it....We heard all thios talk before 1991..."The Iraqis have the 5th largest army in the world..." "The Iraqi SAMs will bend US air-power....The Mig-29s flown by Iraqi pilots are a match to US F15s..." "SCUDs will rain over Tel-Aviv..."....BS!!!!
The Chinese have a very large, mostly poorley equipped army. They have advanced missiles but poorly trained radar operators, New tanks but a fleet of T55 copies as their main force, great new J10 fighters in small noumbers, backed by Mig-19 and Mig-21 copies...They are yet to mechanise the bulk of their Infantry. THEY ARE NOT UP TO IT.

 

[Spartan]

And, as Flying Frog has mentioned several times, better to make friends then enemies.

 

[SAINT]

Allright...I dont want to go into this again but oh well.....

SAMs are not a good solution for having bearaly-flight-worthy aircraft. Look at the Syrians in 1982. Look at the massive Iraqi system in 1991...All those SAMs are just no good when the other side has B2s and F117s punching holes through the radar cover. The Korea war had high amonts of Airforce casualties because the US fought some of the war with lousy equipment. The USSR sent its best pilots in brand new Mig-15s and gave a good fight...But still the USAF achived a high kill ratio by the end of the war, when the Siber jets came in....Oh, and the USA won...Vietnam is diffrent....Here we have the very first use of massive SAM systems in a war....The americans learned the lessons and now have the trainning and hardware to match modern SAMs.


Anyways, this all dosent matter...The Chinese still cantassamble a big enough fleet to carry the bulk of the Chinese army across the strights. The Chinese cant use their entire army against the US, they might them selves with a very opertuntist Russian Bear crashing down on them....Not to speak of India....They simply are not up to it....We heard all thios talk before 1991..."The Iraqis have the 5th largest army in the world..." "The Iraqi SAMs will bend US air-power....The Mig-29s flown by Iraqi pilots are a match to US F15s..." "SCUDs will rain over Tel-Aviv..."....BS!!!!
The Chinese have a very large, mostly poorley equipped army. They have advanced missiles but poorly trained radar operators, New tanks but a fleet of T55 copies as their main force, great new J10 fighters in small noumbers, backed by Mig-19 and Mig-21 copies...They are yet to mechanise the bulk of their Infantry. THEY ARE NOT UP TO IT.

I like that, sherman 105...

I think China's government is being too arrogant and bullying to small countries like Singapore. As always, China is afraid of superpower USA but likes to bully smaller democratic countries like Taiwan or Singapore. Recently when the deputy prime minister of Singapore went for a private visit to Taiwan, Singapore got a beating from both the China government and the China people. Some China people are even saying that China should invade Singapore, or train and arm Singapore's neighbouring Muslim countries to take over Singapore.

That, i think is really the problem with China. She will attack smaller weaker countries like Taiwan or even Singapore if it likes to. But this dream is not possible because of the presense of the US, which China cannot offend.

"Carlos, master terrorist"

 

[Doc.S]

Well I still think that history is a good lesson to have in mind when it comes to the people and armys of the Bengal bay, south China sea and Yellow sea to the sea of Japan. The peoples over there are not going to give anyone an easy fish in a barrol fight that`s for sure. And Vietnam I think speaks alone for itselfe. They didn´t crack down because of tactical bombings. There are just not enoght bombs to make a country as China to give itselfe up. Nukes? Yes there is a chance there but then I think US would have to taste there own medicin. :|


There will not be another Hiroshima or Nagasaki. In the open desert and with systems 30 years or older yes I think that 200.000 airsorties can change alot. But a conventional war against China mainland would be devastating for any nation to be involved in. Good training or not. I can just imagine what a handful of terrorist have done the last months in Iraq. That is a horrible example on technology vs religious fanatics. :2guns:


Another important thing is that not US or any other country in the world will be able to bribe to many Chinese army officers and make perfect tactical bombings with some help from the ground and sattelite phones as in Iraq. China is growing and it has the fastest growing economy in the world at this time 10% a year I think that speaks for itselfe. And the defensive systems and tanks they are using is simply to simular to our own systems and in some cases even better then the nations they are "threatening" :?

 

[SAINT]

People are usually awed by the size of China and probably its massive army... Let me give an assessment of its software -- soldiers.

Firstly, the modern PLA is made up of soldiers from 'one child' families. The males join the PLA to enjoy some privileges in civilian employment when they finish their service in the military. So the main aim to be soldiers is for the sake of the individual future prospects. Don't talk to them about patriotism.. it's outdated and silly to their ears.

Secondly, a majority of the PLA is made up of males who have little exposure to the modern world. They are trained in their county and will be stationed there. They will not be able to fight in a modern warfare. The more up-to-date soldiers are within the major cities' area and the number is small.

Thirdly, the morale of the soldiers and possible defection to the richer enemy. There is a very great possibility that whole battalions and even large portions of the PLA may not want to sacrifice their lives in battle. Their officers or commanders, down to the ordinary soldier may defect to the other side -- to Taiwan. From 1949 till now, there are many cases of PLA officers defecting to Taiwan. That's during peace. During war, there is even greater chance to defect or surrender. Nowadays, people in China value greatly their own lives. No more foolish following over certain political ideology like in Mao's time that does not benefit the individual. The new Ideology of China is to Chase After Money. The GDP per capita between the rich and poor is too far apart. Will the ordinary people want to sacrifice their lives for the rich ones and their politicians or country. What for?

An assault on Taiwan will just bring about a huge social change in China -- a revolution will take place. Their opposition to the current government will appear as a result and take the opportunity to seize power. The common people are all too unhappy about the way their communist government officials receive bribes from the rich to further oppress the poor.

Any attack on Taiwan by China is bound to fail as China's internal cracks will take effect at that time. :twisted:

 

[Biantai]

The original post claimed 1350 BC, it was just a typo, the guy meant 1350 AD actually

Still wrong. Taiwan did not come under Chiense control or administration until the 1680s. Previously it had spent some 20 years under the control fot he Ming loyalist Koxinga (Zheng Chenggong) and his descendants, and before that soem decades under the Dutch (with brief, limited Spanish influence int he North).

Since the people in Taiwan would not choose the direction of declaring independence, so just think about: independent of what? Obviously the CHINA to which they are dependent.

Of course, there is no real need to declare independence, as Taiwan IS independent. It's just a lot fo misguided people think otherwise. I'm curious as to how you believe Taiwan is dependent on China?

Oh yes, ROC (Taiwan) still claims Outer-Mongolia as part of CHINA

No it doesn't. About two years ago the Ministry of Foreign Affairs cleared up this historical anomaly. Yet sadly, the ROC Constitution still claims all of 'China', including Mongolia as territory, despite the fact that the ROC government says otherwise. This is because any change to the Constitution is 'forbidden' by China (in that they say they will invade should Taiwan change the consitution in any way that includes changes of name, status or territoriality (and are not happy with any changes whatsoever) - ironic really).

 

[SHERMAN]

The peoples over there are not going to give anyone an easy fish in a barrol fight that`s for sure

may I remind you that the people of Taiwan are from the same region...

 

[Doc.S]

sherman105

may I remind you that the people of Taiwan are from the same region...

Sir you are so right

And no I am not a friend to the communist China in such a matter that I like what they are standing for. I am living in a socialist country and that is bad enough. War history and things sorrounding the war subject is the things thats stops me from dying of boredness. A Green Card or a million bucks and I would not stay another minute in Europe thats for sure. But I still think that the greatest enemy of our lifestyle and our way to live is not China. It´s Iran, Saudi Arabia, Palestina, Libanon, Indonesia and those that live in the past and walk backwards all the time with there religious fanatics ruling or controling the simple citizens. And when religion is not there its the wide spread illiterate that are killing people. If our leaders did want to help this world they could start with those nations that give birth to terrorism. A modern crusade that once and for all kill this myt of good vs evil. :lol: :twisted:

Cheers:
Doc.S

And the devil on his shoulder

:viking:

 

[desijatt]

My first post here.
I think China is bluffing. No way can they go to war in 3 years. It's gonna be harder to take Tiawan than it was to take Tibet :roll: . There economy is all forign investment and if a war does occur with the island Taiwan, Japan, America and the rest of the western world will just have a trade embrego screwing over these neo commies. Tiawan could lose everything exept the war. China will wait until 2020 or something like that to invade but by then Tiawan will have US backing and Japan as a very close allie. Any PLA troop that lands on Tiawan will get slaughtered. Remember, China has NO modern warfare experience.

 

[proteinxx]

China invade Taiwan? a view from a Chinese

Hello, friends, I really like this forum. I myself barely post anything, but I don’t feel good when I see some people showing strong hostile to China, so I want to make some comments here:

First: I think China is just trying to stop losing what originally belongs to them.----Remember: China never said they are eagerly take that province back unless that province eager to declare dependence. Why China can be just little open mind and just let it go? Go to library and read some books, I am sure you can find some answers. And why China these time show such strong desire to stop this? Check some news happened in last few months.

Second: Every empire dies----NO EXCEPTION, most of them die from being arrogant---again, dear friends, read some history books. I understand American do not have history but I wish American at least try to read some history books---even just a high school history textbook. 200 years as for a country is very short period of time, 50 years as super power is just a simple glimpse second in the time of history. This world is much more broad than most American think

Third: Do not talk nuclear war like a PC game, your girl friend and my girl friend both could really die if there is going to a nuclear war. A person still can survive for a while even he is arrogant----- but if he is arrogant AND ignorant, he is just running straight into his tomb and record of his life is a piece of joke.

Forth: There are devil Chinese and devil American, don let them fool us and doom the future. Try to think with our own brain and stop conflicts.

Fifth: China is evolving, even communists there are still calling themselves communists, China is overall becoming free world step by step. Considering its size and population please give it time---Just don’t take it for granted and think China as communist evil. Nobody like Communist---that is the reason they are chaning!! Try to think about China society like 1900s USA. And don’t forget Chinese and American were allies again Japs in WWII. The nature of people from both sides is not hostile to each other at all. But if you push it too hard, you are creating a real enemy. If you really want to talk about war----think about Chinese shadow in war in Vietnam and war in Korea the same time when you think about war in Iraq. America is developing, changing and improving, the world around you are also changing and improving. There is no single big country that is really ruled by a bunch of stupid guys and just sit there let you kill them if you do not like them anymore. Beside, look around everything selling in Walmart, if it is just one or two items produced from one place, it is not big deal, but when you talk about almost EVERYTHING and EVERYDAY from the SAME PLACE!! ---THAT IS NO MORE JUST “NOT A BIG DEAL!” And it happened just in 20 years. Think about what will be like in next 20 years. Nobody wants war, but arrogant and ignorant definitely will create one. Everybody lose in such a war between two big countries.

Last: again, dear friends, watch less Hollywood movie, read more books and you will begin to understand what is arrogant and what is ignorant.

 

[desijatt]

The way I see it its like this, Taiwan has been independent for a long time...it makes its own decisions and made its own industry flourish. Why is China so eager to take Taiwan which helped them enter the industrail revolution? China took Tibet,Hong Kong, and now Taiwan. Many Chinese feel China should take the Korea's and Veitnam plus nuke the Japanese (understandable in a wa :lol: y). Is this not Imperialism? China needs to slow down on expansion and think. By there same logic Canada should have be in control of Britian and all common wealth nations! These are crazy claims and if the people of Tiawan vote for independence let them. Economy wise they are Chinese with more freedom. No need to kill them for a pathetic cause.

 

[SHERMAN]

Why is China so eager to take Taiwan which helped them enter the industrail revolution?

Taiwan dident help China with anything...There is almost no cooperation between the 2 sides.. The Chinese want Taiwan back because they see it as a part of China.

China took Tibet,Hong Kong, and now Taiwan

Hmmm...China did not take Hong-Kong, the 99 years of lease to the UK ended, and Hong-Kong wqas rightfully given back to China.

nuke the Japanese (understandable in a wa:lol:y).

How is that understandable? what is understandable about using WMDs on someone who is no threat to you. I suggest that you rethink that.

By there same logic Canada should have be in control of Britian and all common wealth nations!

How is that the same logic?