Another Abu Ghraib?

[Redneck]

The situation with Hiroshima and Nagasaki was entirely different, it was done to END a war (thereby saving estimated millions of lives) rather than done out of an irrational hatred and bigotry (yes) in claimed retribution for basically simply existing and having influence.
And you have mentioned the "brainwashing" of Americans before and insinuated it in your last post, how are you not showing how brainwashed you yourself are by immediately believing anything negative you are told about the United States? Are you so blinded by your cynicism and hatred for America that you cannot believe that anything we do benefits anyone else?

chewie, the only part of your post I have not responded to is the news show timetable. Nice stopwatch work, I'm proud of you, but I haven't had the chance nor the inclination to do my own yet, and if you are going to repost every post you make until I have categorically responded to every demand you make, you should save yourself the energy. You and Monty seem to be bent on, as I mentioned before, a course of pointing fingers at where the strong have stumbled. It might be a fun hobby, but I fail to see how it helps anyone.

 

[chewie_nz]

chewie, the only part of your post I have not responded to is the news show timetable. Nice stopwatch work, I'm proud of you, but I haven't had the chance nor the inclination to do my own yet, and if you are going to repost every post you make until I have categorically responded to every demand you make, you should save yourself the energy. You and Monty seem to be bent on, as I mentioned before, a course of pointing fingers at where the strong have stumbled. It might be a fun hobby, but I fail to see how it helps anyone.

sweet as...don't blow a gusset there pardner, just thought it would be pretty easy to do a rough estimate (as i have)

me and monty have have an opinion...it happens to be very similar, i think we make a good case to be honest.
as this is a forum for discussing things like this, and for the exchanging of ideas...i don't think it's out of place.

anyway...i'm not going to lose any sleep over this...beddie by's for me...catcha tomorrow redneck

 

[A Can of Man]

Either way just consider this when u think Iraq was about oil 100%.
It's not economically logical. Why wage war which is expensive when u can buy out their governmetn when that's cheap as dirt compared to war? Why????
Okay maybe I'm a bit passionate right now because I've had a few drinks but really ask yourself this
cheaper, less politically controversial option 1
more expensive, more controversial, anti americanism will have an orgasm option 2.
WHICH???
Come on guys. This is almost too easy.

 

[chewie_nz]

Either way just consider this when u think Iraq was about oil 100%.
It's not economically logical. Why wage war which is expensive when u can buy out their governmetn when that's cheap as dirt compared to war? Why????
Okay maybe I'm a bit passionate right now because I've had a few drinks but really ask yourself this
cheaper, less politically controversial option 1
more expensive, more controversial, anti americanism will have an orgasm option 2.
WHICH???
Come on guys. This is almost too easy.

who are you talking to?

 

[03USMC]

the reason the attack(s) on the WTC happened were because of his anger at US troops being stationed in saudi arabia (the holy land) during the first gulf war. he was trained by the US so i don't think that "irrational hate and bigotry" didn't come into it. from his point of view ( as someone who was used by the US as a tool against the russians, and then saw his own land defiled by "infidels) i don't think his hate is irrational at all

To put a point on it. US Forces were/are Stationed in Saudi Arabia at the pleasure of the House of Saud. The ruling Familiy of Saudi Arabia. No troops were/are permitted in Mecca or Medina per the agreement. Bin Laden is not a member of the Saud family he has no ruling stature. So when he appoarched the Monarchy in 91 about not allowing the Coalition Forces into Saudi Arabia and being allowed to form a Mujihdeen /taliban type group to fight Saddam in Kuwait he was told thanks but no thanks. By the Goverment of Saudi Arabia. Thats the slap in the face to Bin Laden .

Regardless of what Bin Laden thinks he swings no weight with the Saudi Goverment.

 

[Big_Z]

Cowards die a thousand deaths but the brave only die once. That pretty much sums up how I feel about this topic and some of the people posting in it. You can sit on your ass bitching and crying or you can step up to the plate and do something about it.

 

[Redneck]

me and monty have have an opinion...it happens to be very similar, i think we make a good case to be honest.
as this is a forum for discussing things like this, and for the exchanging of ideas...i don't think it's out of place.

anyway...i'm not going to lose any sleep over this...beddie by's for me...catcha tomorrow redneck

I am unsure as to why "me and monty" feel abused because of your opinions. I'm glad neither of you are going to lose sleep because I happen to disagree with you, but, as I already told Monty, in the future I need you to refrain from making woe-is-me posts about how good of an arguer you are. Post your arguments and do not clutter the forum with off topic posts about how you feel your arguments are not being taken as seriously as you think they should be.

Thank you and good night, pard.

 

[Corocotta]

Cowards die a thousand deaths but the brave only die once. That pretty much sums up how I feel about this topic and some of the people posting in it. You can sit on your ass bitching and crying or you can step up to the plate and do something about it.

Actually this topic was relationeted with the sistemic violation of the human rights that is going on in Irak and Guantanamo. The cowards are the ones that use their superiority position to humillate people that are tied up and without anydefense, that´s being a coward. If you think that you are going to stop terrorism with torture i think that you are not following that right way. The only thing that you are gonna get is more fanatism & hate to US. I understand that using the force is the only way sometimes, but I am not sure that all people in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib were terrorist.....

[/quote]

 

[Big_Z]

Cowards die a thousand deaths but the brave only die once. That pretty much sums up how I feel about this topic and some of the people posting in it. You can sit on your ass bitching and crying or you can step up to the plate and do something about it.

Actually this topic was relationeted with the sistemic violation of the human rights that is going on in Irak and Guantanamo. The cowards are the ones that use their superiority position to humillate people that are tied up and without anydefense, that´s being a coward. If you think that you are going to stop terrorism with torture i think that you are not following that right way. The only thing that you are goanna get is more fanatism & hate to US. I understand that using the force is the only way sometimes, but I am not sure that all people in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib were terrorist.....

[/quote]

Do you honestly think we pick these guys up off the streets because they are of arab descent? The CIA is probably the most knowledgable organization in existence, if they pick somebody up there is going to be a damn good reason...... Last time I checked the CIA wasn't going after people for check fraud and petty theft...

 

[03USMC]

Cowards die a thousand deaths but the brave only die once. That pretty much sums up how I feel about this topic and some of the people posting in it. You can sit on your ass bitching and crying or you can step up to the plate and do something about it.

Actually this topic was relationeted with the sistemic violation of the human rights that is going on in Irak and Guantanamo. The cowards are the ones that use their superiority position to humillate people that are tied up and without anydefense, that´s being a coward. If you think that you are going to stop terrorism with torture i think that you are not following that right way. The only thing that you are gonna get is more fanatism & hate to US. I understand that using the force is the only way sometimes, but I am not sure that all people in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib were terrorist.....



/quote]

So we should release all the detainees on a promise they won't do anything. Or take a cue from Madrid and surrender? Wheres my Pax card?

Lets see the last accusation from Gitmo that was really big news was that Female interrogators were questioning detainees in T-shirts and OMG rubbing against them! Horror of horrors!

I also fail to see any concrete evidence of the "Systematic Violations of Human Rights" you are alledging. I see isolated incidents of violations that are being dealt with.

 

[Redneck]

I also fail to see any concrete evidence of the "Systematic Violations of Human Rights" you are alledging. I see isolated incidents of violations that are being dealt with.

 

[Corocotta]

I also fail to see any concrete evidence of the "Systematic Violations of Human Rights" you are alledging. I see isolated incidents of violations that are being dealt with.

In guantanamo the violation of human rights are constant:

Interrogation techniques authorized for use in Guantánamo have included stress positions, isolation, hooding, sensory deprivation, and the use of dogs. Among the abuses reported by FBI agents are the cruel and prolonged use of shackling, and the use of loud music and strobe lights. They have also reported witnessing the use of dogs to intimidate detainees in Guantánamo. Yet military officials, including those involved in earlier investigations, have previously given assurances that no dogs have been used in this way in the naval base. A full independent commission of inquiry, as called for by Amnesty International since last May, is clearly required. If this is not violation of human rights then i do not know what it is, may be you should explain me, I think that i must live in another world......


http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGAMR510032005

 

[Redneck]

I think it is pretty clear that you do live in a different world.

I have already told you that I do not consider the techniques you call "torture" as either unwarranted or abuses of human rights. And again, you cannot go from "alleged" violations to "violations are constant," it just don't work that way.

 

[03USMC]

I also fail to see any concrete evidence of the "Systematic Violations of Human Rights" you are alledging. I see isolated incidents of violations that are being dealt with.

In guantanamo the violation of human rights are constant:

Interrogation techniques authorized for use in Guantánamo have included stress positions, isolation, hooding, sensory deprivation, and the use of dogs. Among the abuses reported by FBI agents are the cruel and prolonged use of shackling, and the use of loud music and strobe lights. They have also reported witnessing the use of dogs to intimidate detainees in Guantánamo. Yet military officials, including those involved in earlier investigations, have previously given assurances that no dogs have been used in this way in the naval base. A full independent commission of inquiry, as called for by Amnesty International since last May, is clearly required. If this is not violation of human rights then i do not know what it is, may be you should explain me, I think that i must live in another world......


http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGAMR510032005

Amenesty International considers most forms of incarceration and interrogation above "Go to bed without milk and cookies." a human rights violation. The FBI Agents you refer to as plural is one Agent read the report again. And just as an aside the FBI agrees with very little they do not control. The FBI wants control of Gitmo even though it is outside CONUS and there for outside the jurisdication of COINTELPRO.
Hooding, Sensory deprivation, Intimadation, stress and sensory overload are accepted methods of interrogation. They are not torture, they are used in varying degrees to extract intel.

Yes you must live in a different world. A world were you safely ensconced in the safe haven of higher education. Where bad guys stop being bad guys because they get a hug and kind word. Where terrorists change their ways and go forth to murder no more because the rest of the world says "we love and understand you" . Must be lovely in that world. Because in the real world Hard men must do hard things to keep their nations safe.

 

[Corocotta]

I also fail to see any concrete evidence of the "Systematic Violations of Human Rights" you are alledging. I see isolated incidents of violations that are being dealt with.

In guantanamo the violation of human rights are constant:

Interrogation techniques authorized for use in Guantánamo have included stress positions, isolation, hooding, sensory deprivation, and the use of dogs. Among the abuses reported by FBI agents are the cruel and prolonged use of shackling, and the use of loud music and strobe lights. They have also reported witnessing the use of dogs to intimidate detainees in Guantánamo. Yet military officials, including those involved in earlier investigations, have previously given assurances that no dogs have been used in this way in the naval base. A full independent commission of inquiry, as called for by Amnesty International since last May, is clearly required. If this is not violation of human rights then i do not know what it is, may be you should explain me, I think that i must live in another world......


http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGAMR510032005

Amenesty International considers most forms of incarceration and interrogation above "Go to bed without milk and cookies." a human rights violation. The FBI Agents you refer to as plural is one Agent read the report again. And just as an aside the FBI agrees with very little they do not control. The FBI wants control of Gitmo even though it is outside CONUS and there for outside the jurisdication of COINTELPRO.
Hooding, Sensory deprivation, Intimadation, stress and sensory overload are accepted methods of interrogation. They are not torture, they are used in varying degrees to extract intel.

Yes you must live in a different world. A world were you safely ensconced in the safe haven of higher education. Where bad guys stop being bad guys because they get a hug and kind word. Where terrorists change their ways and go forth to murder no more because the rest of the world says "we love and understand you" . Must be lovely in that world. Because in the real world Hard men must do hard things to keep their nations safe.

This is torture for every country that signed United Nations Convention Against Torture:

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

I did not see any mention to the cookies, but I am sure that if you read this link you will find it: http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Torture

 

[03USMC]

Nice. In all of your reading of legal issues contained there in did you miss the part that notes. Article 5 of the GCIV? Is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected or engaged of activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present convention as would if excercised in favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such state.

So I submit to you Counselor that the detainees are not subject to the GCIII nor GCIV. In light of the evidence you have presented yet failed to research completely.

 

[Redneck]

Ouch.
:lol:

 

[chewie_nz]

Nice. In all of your reading of legal issues contained there in did you miss the part that notes. Article 5 of the GCIV? Is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected or engaged of activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present convention as would if excercised in favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such state.

So I submit to you Counselor that the detainees are not subject to the GCIII nor GCIV. In light of the evidence you have presented yet failed to research completely.

The United States has ratified the UN's Convention Against Torture and the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions. Although the Bush Administration has argued that prisoners taken in Afghanistan did not qualify as prisoners of war under international law, Alberto R. Gonzales, counsel to the President, has stated: "Both the United States and Iraq are parties to the Geneva Conventions. The United States recognizes that these treaties are binding in the war for the liberation of Iraq." ("The Rule of Law and the Rules of War", New York Times (op-ed piece), May 15, 2004).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay

The U.S. classifies the prisoners held at Camp Delta and Camp Echo as illegal enemy combatants, but has not held the Article 5 tribunals that would be required by international law for it to do so. This would grant them the rights of the Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV), as opposed to the more common Third Geneva Convention (GCIII) which deals exclusively with prisoners of war. On November 9, 2004 US District Court Judge James Robertson ruled that the Bush Administration had overstepped its authority to try such prisoners as enemy combatants in a military tribunal and denying them access to the evidence used against them.

[/b]

 

[Marksman]

I also fail to see any concrete evidence of the "Systematic Violations of Human Rights" you are alledging. I see isolated incidents of violations that are being dealt with.

In guantanamo the violation of human rights are constant:

Interrogation techniques authorized for use in Guantánamo have included stress positions, isolation, hooding, sensory deprivation, and the use of dogs. Among the abuses reported by FBI agents are the cruel and prolonged use of shackling, and the use of loud music and strobe lights. They have also reported witnessing the use of dogs to intimidate detainees in Guantánamo. Yet military officials, including those involved in earlier investigations, have previously given assurances that no dogs have been used in this way in the naval base. A full independent commission of inquiry, as called for by Amnesty International since last May, is clearly required. If this is not violation of human rights then i do not know what it is, may be you should explain me, I think that i must live in another world......


http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGAMR510032005

Amenesty International considers most forms of incarceration and interrogation above "Go to bed without milk and cookies." a human rights violation. The FBI Agents you refer to as plural is one Agent read the report again. And just as an aside the FBI agrees with very little they do not control. The FBI wants control of Gitmo even though it is outside CONUS and there for outside the jurisdication of COINTELPRO.
Hooding, Sensory deprivation, Intimadation, stress and sensory overload are accepted methods of interrogation. They are not torture, they are used in varying degrees to extract intel.

Yes you must live in a different world. A world were you safely ensconced in the safe haven of higher education. Where bad guys stop being bad guys because they get a hug and kind word. Where terrorists change their ways and go forth to murder no more because the rest of the world says "we love and understand you" . Must be lovely in that world. Because in the real world Hard men must do hard things to keep their nations safe.

This is torture for every country that signed United Nations Convention Against Torture:

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

I did not see any mention to the cookies, but I am sure that if you read this link you will find it: http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Torture

ohh whyeven bother,US controls UN ,which means that those rules that aply for us dont aply for US................trust me dont even bother with standing up for ur rights.........as things are going,we wont have any very soon

 

[Corocotta]

Nice. In all of your reading of legal issues contained there in did you miss the part that notes. Article 5 of the GCIV? Is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected or engaged of activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present convention as would if excercised in favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such state.

So I submit to you Counselor that the detainees are not subject to the GCIII nor GCIV. In light of the evidence you have presented yet failed to research completely.

As I see you do not know the difference betewen Geneve Convention and
UN Convention Agains Torture. The Geneve Convention is for war prisoners and the UN for all Humans on earth, not just Americans.

Article 1
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

Article 2
Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

Is this familiar to you????????????????