Bullpup vs. classic rifle designs?
The Other Guy
Spam King
It's shorter, but has the same length barrel, thus it's just as accurate as a long rifle but easier to carry.
major liability
Active member
From what I've read over almost a decade of online debates is this:
Bullpups are advantageous in CQC thanks to their shorter overall length, but since the trigger is not directly connected to the mechanism the trigger pull is usually just not as good as a rifle of conventional layout. They can also be more difficult to fire from the prone position because the magazine is sticking out. Lastly, people who have used a lot of firearms of the conventional layout seem to have a bit of difficulty adjusting to reloading and handling bullpups.
That's just what I've heard, I've never had a chance to actually fire a bullpup rifle yet.
Bullpups are advantageous in CQC thanks to their shorter overall length, but since the trigger is not directly connected to the mechanism the trigger pull is usually just not as good as a rifle of conventional layout. They can also be more difficult to fire from the prone position because the magazine is sticking out. Lastly, people who have used a lot of firearms of the conventional layout seem to have a bit of difficulty adjusting to reloading and handling bullpups.
That's just what I've heard, I've never had a chance to actually fire a bullpup rifle yet.
senojekips
Active member
You may as well ask why did we change from the black powder to smokeless propellant, or from muzzle loaders to bolt action.
c/Commander
Active member
You think it's that much of an improvement? I've got to tell you...I've fired bullpups and I have a hard time getting over how awkward it is to reload them. You may be able to cram more accuracy into a smaller package, but if you can't do a quick combat reload during CQB all the accuracy in the world doesn't help.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
That's my problem. I am so ingrained with the AR-15 platform (M16) that I cannot work with other rifles. Only other system I might be able to go to is something that is laid out like the AR-15.
The Bullpup is a smaller platform with the same ballistic power as the full size service rifle. They're great for CQB and modern day urban combat. Sadly I will be a dinosaur with the coming revolution. I'm only 24 but the AR-15 is MY RIFLE. I don't ever see myself changing to another platform. Maybe a piston system AR but that's about it.
The MSAR STG-556, Bushmsater M17, Sig Sauer 556, TPD AXR, FNH SCAR, FN 2000, Robinson XCR, AK Series, L85 (SA-80), FAMAS, and Steyr AUG will never replace the AR-15 for me as my go to rifle.
It all comes down to training. I've trained with some brits that work with the L85 (SA80). They can work that weapon pretty well... I'm like a drunk monkey. When they worked with our M4A1s they had issues doing fast reload drills also.
senojekips
Active member
That's a personal problem, nothing to do with firearms design. Like any piece of unfamiliar equipment, you must learn to use it properly. Practice until it becomes second nature.
c/Commander
Active member
On the other hand, if it's not broken, don't fix it - retraining troops is expensive and results in a temporary drop in combat proficiency. Maybe during peacetime we could switch, but as long as we're engaged as heavily as we are, any weapons changes will still keep the AR-15 layout.
That said, I'd be interested in seeing some sort of limited trial go into effect with some of the more skilled units - 75th Rangers, maybe?
That said, I'd be interested in seeing some sort of limited trial go into effect with some of the more skilled units - 75th Rangers, maybe?
senojekips
Active member
I think that you are letting your personal preferences get in the way here. Hundreds of thousands of troops have successfully changed to bullpup type weapons and other than ejection problems for left handers on some early types they have been widely accepted as a great improvement.
Like any new weapon they must undergo usage and firing trials, but that focuses on a much wider range of potential problems than just the fact that the weapon has been made into a shorter and handier unit.
Like any new weapon they must undergo usage and firing trials, but that focuses on a much wider range of potential problems than just the fact that the weapon has been made into a shorter and handier unit.
c/Commander
Active member
True, but imagine having to retrain 3 million active and reserve military personnel...
AussieNick
Forum Digger
Why do you need to change. Eg, the US uses the M4 and Australia uses the F88 Steyr... it works for both nation so why would either swap platforms.
To address 2 issues:
1. I find the prone position easy to fire in with the Steyr. If you use the prone supported position it is incredibly stable with the magazine supporting the rear of the rifle.
2. Mag changes... an interesting debate, but I've always found it easy. I find it very intuitive and easy to access close to the body creating an easy mag change situation especially in the dark or while running.
To address 2 issues:
1. I find the prone position easy to fire in with the Steyr. If you use the prone supported position it is incredibly stable with the magazine supporting the rear of the rifle.
2. Mag changes... an interesting debate, but I've always found it easy. I find it very intuitive and easy to access close to the body creating an easy mag change situation especially in the dark or while running.
senojekips
Active member
So I guess you think that it's preferable to stay in the past?
Every new piece of equipment ever issued requires re training, if it were not for that, we would still be throwing stones at one another and chasing around with sticks.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Bullpup seems like a good idea.
How does the FN P90 type of magazine feed work? The reloading does look like a b*tch but it does hold more ammo, which you can see through the transparent magazine just by looking down. That might be the next direction for automatic weapons.
Also I too can see the great benefit of having the ammunition CLOSE to your body's center. It'll feel a heck of a lot lighter than having a magazine or two hanging away.
How does the FN P90 type of magazine feed work? The reloading does look like a b*tch but it does hold more ammo, which you can see through the transparent magazine just by looking down. That might be the next direction for automatic weapons.
Also I too can see the great benefit of having the ammunition CLOSE to your body's center. It'll feel a heck of a lot lighter than having a magazine or two hanging away.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
That's probably THE best thing about the standard AR layout. A lot easier to modify.
senojekips
Active member
99.999% of which is totally unnecessary for the average infantryman. Looking at the "we'll sell you a million things that you'll never need" advert above, the word "frivolous' immediately comes to mind.I'll stick with my platform thank you very much..
An infantryman needs a weapon that is sturdy, easy to carry and clean needing an absolute minimum of maintenance. This is about having the most practical weapon, not the most "bling". Which is not to say that the same stuff couldn't be made for a bullpup.
Go,go gadget vapouriser!
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5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
Hey, I like my bling..... My service rifle had a Eo-tech, BUIS, VFG, PEQ II, and a Streamlight M6... I was able to bring everything home except the PEQ II.
As for the bullpup platforms and bling... yeah. Have of the useless crap out there for the AR-15 is out there for everything else.
c/Commander
Active member
But we've reached a point where it really doesn't matter as much anymore. This isn't a revolutionary new design; it's merely an evolution in current firearms technology. For a force as large as the US military, I'd say the current cons outweigh the pros.
senojekips
Active member
Imagine if they would have said that about the adoption of breech loading rifles. Many improvements are not big things in themselves, but when combined with other advances, that how we got to where we are now.
You can't just stop the advancements in any sphere hoping the world will remain the same. If we stop, the rest of the world will just steam on past us.
Tell me about the cons you see.