East V.S. West

D

dsj

Banned
Let's have a talk by responding to this thread. The time period is from the Ancient to the Renaissance. After that the west dominated. So please talk about the time period I mentioned.
 
I think you're right in that the West's development sped up considerably while the East has started to slow down.
 
im guessing djs means europe vs asia, from time of first established european culture (greeks?) to the point when europe emerged from the dark ages and science, literature, and art flourished (1400s to 1600 AD.)

good luck.
 
I'll make the start. I believe than the western europeans have been the strongest military power since the time of ancient greeks. Some examples include nicopolis where even outnumbered and seperated from the hungarian army, the french knights were able to break all turkish lines but the last. The turkish composite recurve bow that was supposed to shoot over 500 yards proved totally unable to stop the french calvary charges even after it has been weakened after many fights. This shows that the longbows are much more capable.
Siege of vienna-a 325000 ottoman force got defeated by 27000 european troops. the legendary janissaries got again and again defeated by the european arquebusiers and pikemen.
 
dsj said:
I'll make the start. I believe than the western europeans have been the strongest military power since the time of ancient greeks.
Click to expand...
have we forgotten the Mongols and Genghis Khan? Apperently the Mongols from the east, developed better military weapons and strategies on their conquest to create an empire throughout all of Europe and Asia.
 
Darkmb101 said:
dsj said:
I'll make the start. I believe than the western europeans have been the strongest military power since the time of ancient greeks.
Click to expand...
have we forgotten the Mongols and Genghis Khan? Apperently the Mongols from the east, developed better military weapons and strategies on their conquest to create an empire throughout all of Europe and Asia.
Click to expand...
The mongols were nothing but a bunch of barbarians. They did not invent anything except their good old bow. They learned everything from other countries. All they have is their good training, large numbers and the legendary durability which no one else was even close to. The chinese were stronger than the mongolians at the time but they were too corrupt. They were held back by the europeans and retreated. this shows that the europeans are no weaker than them.
 
It doesnt matter if they developed their weapons and tactics or not, all that matters is that the Mongolian military was better prepared to win the war.
 
dsj said:
Darkmb101 said:
dsj said:
I'll make the start. I believe than the western europeans have been the strongest military power since the time of ancient greeks.
Click to expand...
have we forgotten the Mongols and Genghis Khan? Apparently the Mongols from the east, developed better military weapons and strategies on their conquest to create an empire throughout all of Europe and Asia.
Click to expand...
The mongols were nothing but a bunch of barbarians. They did not invent anything except their good old bow. They learned everything from other countries. All they have is their good training, large numbers and the legendary durability which no one else was even close to. The chinese were stronger than the mongolians at the time but they were too corrupt. They were held back by the europeans and retreated. this shows that the europeans are no weaker than them.
Click to expand...

It has to be remembered that but for a freak accident where Ghengis Khan fell off his horse and was killed, these 'barbarians' would have conquered all of mainland Europe right up to the Atlantic. In 1227AD the Mongols had just defeated a combined force of 40,000 Knights in Poland, the cream of European nobility - there was 'nothing' left to stop them laying waste to ALL of Western Europe...

From there it's very likely they would have invaded Britian and conquered that country too and also spread right down into the Iberian peninsula.
 
Doppleganger said:
dsj said:
Darkmb101 said:
dsj said:
I'll make the start. I believe than the western europeans have been the strongest military power since the time of ancient greeks.
Click to expand...
have we forgotten the Mongols and Genghis Khan? Apparently the Mongols from the east, developed better military weapons and strategies on their conquest to create an empire throughout all of Europe and Asia.
Click to expand...
The mongols were nothing but a bunch of barbarians. They did not invent anything except their good old bow. They learned everything from other countries. All they have is their good training, large numbers and the legendary durability which no one else was even close to. The chinese were stronger than the mongolians at the time but they were too corrupt. They were held back by the europeans and retreated. this shows that the europeans are no weaker than them.
Click to expand...

It has to be remembered that but for a freak accident where Ghengis Khan fell off his horse and was killed, these 'barbarians' would have conquered all of mainland Europe right up to the Atlantic. In 1227AD the Mongols had just defeated a combined force of 40,000 Knights in Poland, the cream of European nobility - there was 'nothing' left to stop them laying waste to ALL of Western Europe...

From there it's very likely they would have invaded Britian and conquered that country too and also spread right down into the Iberian peninsula.
Click to expand...
this is what exactly I said was impossible. After Gengis khan's death they countinued into europe. They were defeated by the europeans and where did all the people get the idea that there was nothing left to stop them? The europeans still had every thing left! you are not reading my posts and are making this kind of judgement?
 
DSJ has now been temporary banned, because he has failed too many times to follow the forum rules and the warnings from me and the mods...

It does NOT have anything to do with the content of his posts!!

I'll unlock this post now, so stay on topic from now on...

Please! :)
 
this is what exactly I said was impossible. After Gengis khan's death they countinued into europe. They were defeated by the europeans and where did all the people get the idea that there was nothing left to stop them? The europeans still had every thing left! you are not reading my posts and are making this kind of judgement?

I think what doppleganger was trying to say is that if genghis khan had not died then there was nothing to stop him as he was a better tactician than the europeans and would of won! After genghis khans death the mongols were left without a leader and the possible leaders were arguing among themselves which left the europeans time to regroup and face a weaker mongol army! If GK had not died then the mongols would of been able to press on and possibly conqour europe! I doubt if the mongols could hold it for long though as i cant see britain being conqoured and communication lines would be overstretched and the europeans would rise up and drive them out!
 
Ottoman's power was impresive until they got defeated in front of vieeena
by cristians.Until that moment,they invaded balcan countries..But the mistake they made was that they weren't able to create and manufacture new war weapons...Well,let it alone,there was another fact for fallen of Ottoman Empire..It was that all european countries were enemies of ottomans..However,ottoman's had no friend country...
However,Ottoman's could have been destroyed earlier..Beceuse,european countries couldn't agree on an invasion plan on Ottoman Empire..Beceause,all of them wanted more part's on the empire...
 
dsj said:
Doppleganger said:
dsj said:
Darkmb101 said:
dsj said:
I'll make the start. I believe than the western europeans have been the strongest military power since the time of ancient greeks.
Click to expand...
have we forgotten the Mongols and Genghis Khan? Apparently the Mongols from the east, developed better military weapons and strategies on their conquest to create an empire throughout all of Europe and Asia.
Click to expand...
The mongols were nothing but a bunch of barbarians. They did not invent anything except their good old bow. They learned everything from other countries. All they have is their good training, large numbers and the legendary durability which no one else was even close to. The chinese were stronger than the mongolians at the time but they were too corrupt. They were held back by the europeans and retreated. this shows that the europeans are no weaker than them.
Click to expand...

It has to be remembered that but for a freak accident where Ghengis Khan fell off his horse and was killed, these 'barbarians' would have conquered all of mainland Europe right up to the Atlantic. In 1227AD the Mongols had just defeated a combined force of 40,000 Knights in Poland, the cream of European nobility - there was 'nothing' left to stop them laying waste to ALL of Western Europe...

From there it's very likely they would have invaded Britian and conquered that country too and also spread right down into the Iberian peninsula.
Click to expand...
this is what exactly I said was impossible. After Ghengis khan's death they continued into europe. They were defeated by the europeans and where did all the people get the idea that there was nothing left to stop them? The europeans still had every thing left! you are not reading my posts and are making this kind of judgement?
Click to expand...

Not right away. They had Europe at their mercy and went home because the Great Khan had died. It's true they came back later and the momentum was lost but at that time Europe was ripe for the slaughter. Christianity was in very great danger of being reduced to a mere footnote in history.

Perhaps some reading is in order:

http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/WestEurope/MongolEurope.CP.html

Allow me to quote from this source:

"In March of 1241, it began. King Boleslav V (the Brave) of Poland was the first to meet the thundering Asian cavalry archers at the city of Krakow. The battle was a disaster, ending in the death of Boleslav and the shattering of his army, the remnants of which fled west to the city of Liegnitz, where the Teutonic Knights (a German Christian military/crusading order founded about a hundred years after the First Crusade) were desperately trying to form an army to stop the Asian advance. Khaidu, leader of the Mongol northern army, led his forces in hot pursuit. On April 9, in Anno Domini 1241, Christendom watched in horror as its proud knighthood, wearing the cross of Christ, was utterly annihilated at the hands of Khaidu. The ruler of Silesia, Grand Prince Henry II, was killed in the battle. The nearby realm of Silesia was swiftly ransacked, but the Bohemian Army finally stopped Khaidu's advance. Undeterred in the least, he merely headed south, for Hungary. The last great hope to stop the Mongols was gone, and the way lay open into Central Europe."

http://historymedren.about.com/library/prm/bl1mongolinvasion.htm

http://www.io.com/~tenzil/rpgs/invasion.htm

So to reiterate again. The Mongols initially left Europe because the Great Khan had died and tradition demanded they return home to their capital to appoint a successor and NOT because any European armies had repulsed them.
 
To be fair - both East and West, each to their own, have had their own technological advantages against one another. I believe as does mostly everyone else, the greatest General the world has ever seen was Alexander the Great, who came from Macedonia.

The family essentially was split apart irreparably when Philip married a woman named Cleopatra, a Macedonian. At the wedding banquet, Cleopatra's father made a remark about Philip fathering a "legitmate" heir, i.e., one that was pure Macedonian. Alexand er took exception and threw his cup at the man, and some sources say Alexander killed him. Enraged, Philip stood up and charged at Alexander, only to trip and fall on his face in his drunken stupor. Alexander, rather upset at the scene, is said to have shouted:

"Here is the man who was making ready to cross from Europe to Asia, and who cannot even cross from one table to another without losing his balance."
Click to expand...
Source: the great home of Alexander...

He ruled Macedonia while his father was at war and even had his first kill at age 16.

Now Alexander the Great's father Philip created the following:

Philip's military innovations created the fighting power that Alexander inherited, making it a force to be reckoned with. Philip introduced the 12 cubit (6 meter) sarissa, a wooden pike with metal tip, for use by his infantry in the phalanx. The sarissa, when held upright by the rear rows of the phalanx (there were usually eight rows), helped hide maneuvers behind the phalanx from the view of the enemy. When held horizontal by the front rows of the phalanx, it was a rather brutal weapon. People could be run through from 20 feet away, giving quite an advantage to the phalanx in hand-to-hand combat.
Click to expand...

Alexander fought with the finest military machine that Asia or Greece had ever seen, primarily because of the amount of time and effort spent on maneuvers.

In addition to the basic phalanx, Philip and Alexander used light auxiliaries, archers, a siege train, and a cavalry. With all of these working well together, both Philip and Alexander rarely, if ever, lost any battle.
Click to expand...
 
The mongols were nothing but a bunch of barbarians. They did not invent anything except their good old bow. They learned everything from other countries. All they have is their good training, large numbers and the legendary durability which no one else was even close to. The chinese were stronger than the mongolians at the time but they were too corrupt. They were held back by the europeans and retreated. this shows that the europeans are no weaker than them.
Click to expand...

Barbarians, yes. Large numbers, no. One of the greatest ficticious rumors about the Mongols is the idea that they had overwhelming numbers. They almost never had the numerical advantage. It is quite interesting how Ghengis and company managed to play Song Dynasty against the Chin, and ultimately defeated both by getting them to wage war on each other.

Also, the Mongols did not "retreat" from Europe. There was a LOT more to it than that. Now, from a PURELY EUROPEAN perspective, I'm sure the Europeans decided that they were in some way responsible for stopping the Mongols. Fact is, they DIDN'T stop them, they Europe just got damn lucky. I already posted the details of this in "Which culture circle possessed the greatest military power?" and I'm much to lazy to repeat it all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top