25 Israeli soldiers speak on Israeli war crimes in Gaza

[Justice]

MY QUESTION IS HOW CAN A CHRISTIAN, GOD FEARING, DEMOCRATIC & HUMAN RIGHT LOVING NATION AS MINE CONDONE THESE ACTS AS IF THEY NEVER HAPPENED?

ISRAEL HAS LEGITIMATE SECURITY GUARANTEES, BUT HOW CAN IT JUSTIFY KILLING SO MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE? HOW CAN THEY WASH THEIR HANDS OF SO MUCH BLOOD AS IF NOTHING HAS EVER HAPPENED? NO AMOUNT OF SECURITY NEEDS CAN JUSTIFY MURDERING INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

http://rtsf.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/breaking-silence-on-israeli-war-crimes/

Following excerpts are from the same BBC report :

Israel soldiers speak out on Gaza

The troops said they had been urged to fire on any building or person that seemed suspicious and said civilians were sometimes used as human shields.

Breaking the Silence, a campaign group made up of Israeli soldiers, gathered the anonymous accounts.

Israel denies breaking the laws of war and dismissed the report as hearsay.

Breaking the Silence described most of the testimonies of soldiers who took part in Operation Cast Lead as “sober, regretful and shocked”.

Many of the testimonies are in line with claims made by human-rights organisations that Israeli military action in Gaza was indiscriminate and disproportionate.

According to testimonies from the 14 conscripts and 12 reserve soldiers:

Rules of engagement were either unclear or encouraged soldiers to do their utmost to protect their own lives whether or not Palestinian civilians were harmed.
Civilians were used as human shields, entering buildings ahead of soldiers
Large swathes of homes and buildings were demolished. Accounts say that this was often done because the houses might be booby-trapped, or cover tunnels. Testimony mentioned a policy referred to as “the day after”, whereby areas near the border where razed to make future military operations easier
According to various reports the overwhelming majority of Israeli troops are aggressive and poorly-disciplined, a fact that was confirmed in the latest “confessions.”

There was widespread vandalism of property of Palestinians
Soldiers firing at water tanks because they were bored, at a time of severe water shortages for Gazans
White phosphorus was used in civilian areas gratuitously and recklessly
Many of the soldiers said there had been very little direct engagement with Palestinian militants
The report says Israeli troops and the people who justify their actions are “slid[ing] together down the moral slippery slope.”

The report obviously assumes many of the readers are ignorant of the crimes of genocide and all other diabolical crimes against humanity committed by Israelis against Palestinians ever since the military occupation of Palestine began in 1947. This begs the question: since when did the Israelis occupy a high place above the “moral slippery slope?”

“This is an urgent call to Israeli society and its leaders to sober up and investigate anew the results of our actions,” Breaking the Silence says.

Israeli officials insist troops went to great lengths to protect civilians, that Hamas endangered non-combatants by firing from civilian areas and that homes and buildings were destroyed only when there was a specific military need to do so.

Israel said the purpose of the 22-day operation that ended on 18 January 2009 had been to end rocket fire from Gaza aimed at its southern towns.

Palestinian rights groups say about 1,400 Palestinians died during the operation. Thirteen Israelis died in the conflict, including 10 soldiers serving in Gaza.

According to the UN, the campaign damaged or destroyed more than 50,000 homes, 800 industrial properties, 200 schools, 39 mosques and two churches.

How did the Israeli military react to the report?

Israeli military spokeswoman Lt Col Avital Leibovich said: “The IDF regrets the fact that another human rights organisation has come out with a report based on anonymous and general testimony – without investigating their credibility.”

Dismissed the document as “hearsay and word of mouth,” she added:

“The IDF expects every soldier to turn to the appropriate authorities with any allegation,” Lt Col Leibovich added. “This is even more important where the harm is to non-combatants. The IDF has uncompromising ethical values which continue to guide us in every mission.”

[And if you don't believe the Israeli Occupation Forces, ask the tens of thousands of slain Palestinians who would, no doubt, verify the Israeli claims.]

Related Links:

Israel Page of Shame
More Links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_committed_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war
http://web.archive.org/web/20040524234337/http://en.falastiny.net/books/massacres/massacres1.htm
http://www.soundofegypt.com/palestinian/adult/massacres.htm
http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/topic.php?tid=7
http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/home.php
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407072.htm
See also:

List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War
1948 Palestinian exodus
Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus
Exodus from Lydda and Ramla
Jewish exodus from Arab lands
Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine War
List of Israeli military operations in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war
List of villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict
Palestinian refugee camps
Plan Dalet
Transfer Committee
Zionist Genocides Today and Yesterday
Zionist Atrocities

I ASK AGAIN.... ISRAEL HAS LEGITIMATE SECURITY GUARANTEES, BUT HOW CAN IT JUSTIFY KILLING SO MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE? HOW CAN THEY WASH THEIR HANDS OF SO MUCH BLOOD AS IF NOTHING HAS EVER HAPPENED? NO AMOUNT OF SECURITY NEEDS CAN JUSTIFY MURDERING INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

 

[MontyB]

Since there is a distinct lack of activity by our Israeli members and I am not going to hide behind biblical claptrap to justify actions I would put this counter argument forward...

If we put aside the who started it and who did what to whom first arguments, I find it hard to believe that anyone could seriously argue that a government does not have the right to defend its people against this...
http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.3831671/

A memorial in Sderot’s city hall dedicated to those that have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza

Five-year-old Lior Ben Schimmel who was seriously wounded when a rocket directly hit her neighbor’s home, where she was playing Jan. 16, 2008


The part that is continually over looked in this on going battle is that neither side are angels and while groups like Hamas are busy fighting some medieval holy war and the Israeli government play politics civilians on both sides get to suffer.

In the end while my views at times may border on anti-semitic the fact of the matter is that I am sick of both protagonists of this argument and if not for follow on effects of radiation would happily see the entire region removed from the face of the earth.

 

[senojekips]

Ahhh,.. the devil's advocate eh? Not really an enviable position to put yourself in MontyB.

So,... I suppose that the same could be said for the Nazis who were supposedly avenging the Jewish takeover of some German businesses during WWI while the owners were away at war??

Once we disregard all of the pertinent facts, any argument at all can be made look quite legitimate.

Do you feel that perhaps the little girl in your photo is somehow more precious than any of the children in the photos in Post #1, because if it comes down to dead and injured children we know who is "winning" that race by a long shot, don't we?

 

[A Can of Man]

Yeah. I don't think the rockets have been ignored at all.

 

[Wallabies]

According to various reports the overwhelming majority of Israeli troops are aggressive and poorly-disciplined, a fact that was confirmed in the latest “confessions.”

That's what happens when you use conscripts and reservists.

 

[Justice]

Take a moment guys and check this website out: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html

This site shows the disproportionate fatality levels between Israel and Palestine and also the disproportionate reporting between Israeli fatalities and Palestinian fatalities in the American media.

The fact of the matter is even when their was a truce between the Palestinians and Israel, Israel would constantly violate the terms of the ceasefire and disengagement by overflights, incursions, arrests, etc and when the Palestinians retaliate they get blamed for breaking the truce while all along Israel has been poking them and violating the truce but that all goes unreported here in the states and across the west. Take for example the UN brokered truce agreement between Lebanon and Israel, even though their are no hostilities Israel till this day constantly violates the terms of the agreement and Lebanese sovereignty the UN force in Lebanon constantly reports Israeli violations but here in the west that all falls to deaf ear but when Lebanon finally decides to retaliate watch what happens here in the west they would get blamed for breaking the truce when all along we know thats far from the truth.

My point is that Israel commits horrific crimes every day and they go unreported, when a Palestinian attacks Israel every western media outlet would eat it up but we never see the disproportionate Israeli attacks on our tvs. Never hear of the Israeli breaking of truces and we never hear of the hugely disproportionate Palestinian deaths vis-a-vis Israel.

 

[Wolf]

I hear about how evil the Israelis are all the time. In fact, according to what I've gathered from internet discussion, "they're hateful, blood-hungry, murderers who take delight in killing children and destroying homes. They tend to fire missiles for no apparent reason, and seem to manage fooling the world despite all being mentally retarded."

 

[Justice]

Listen I'm reasonable I'm not here to vilify Israel or slander Israel cuz it's the new fad or whatever other reason, what I am saying is I understand Israel has legitimate security concerns but that shouldn't justify disproportionate massive attacks against civilians, UN workers and installations as we had seen in Gaza or the forceful attack of humanitarian workers as we have recently seen. No security concern can justify collective punshiment of civilians, no security concern can justify the humanitarian disaster Israel created in Gaza, no security concern can justify the open air prison Israel turned into Gaza, no security concern can justify the mass arrest of over 10k Palestinian prisoners languashing in Israeli prisons without knowing what they been charged with, without having access to legal representation and without setting foot in a court of law, no security reason can justify the thousands of Palestinians that die without access to proper clean water, adequate food, medical care, no security reason can justify the massive human rights violations occuring everyday in Gaza.

 

[senojekips]

I hear about how evil the Israelis are all the time. In fact, according to what I've gathered from internet discussion, "they're hateful, blood-hungry, murderers who take delight in killing children and destroying homes. They tend to fire missiles for no apparent reason, and seem to manage fooling the world despite all being mentally retarded."

Only because they have the backing of the most powerful country in the world.

It would make one wonder wouldn't it??

What makes me wonder is how people with a brain and any sense of morals could have allowed it to happen, let alone encourage it.

 

[MontyB]

Ahhh,.. the devil's advocate eh? Not really an enviable position to put yourself in MontyB.

So,... I suppose that the same could be said for the Nazis who were supposedly avenging the Jewish takeover of some German businesses during WWI while the owners were away at war??

Once we disregard all of the pertinent facts, any argument at all can be made look quite legitimate.

Do you feel that perhaps the little girl in your photo is somehow more precious than any of the children in the photos in Post #1, because if it comes down to dead and injured children we know who is "winning" that race by a long shot, don't we?

Yeah I doubt I will do well at playing Devils Advocate in this instance but it has to better than a bunch of people agreeing with each other because the opposition failed to show up.

As for the girl injured in the photo, no she is no more "precious" than anyone else in the region but that is my point there is no real difference between either side here, you cannot vilify Israel for injuring or killing a kid and then completely ignore the fact that Palestinian rockets are doing the same thing.

It is my opinion that all of the kids in all of these pictures would have been able to coexist happily together if not for the extremists on both sides.

That's what happens when you use conscripts and reservists.

I am not sure I agree, I think there is a different driving force here and I think it is racial/religious superiority one and it is the same driving force that separated actions of well trained soldiers on the Eastern Front from the Western Front during WW2, in the east they were fighting a war of annihilation where barbaric actions were tolerated because they were fighting inferiors, in the west a totally different mindset prevailed.

 

[Justice]

If other nations did have the things Israel does on daily basis that countries whole leadership would become a pariah, their may even be a warrant from the international court for their crimes against humanity and war crimes. I'm sick and tired of Israel being above the law and committing crimes with impunity and my tax dollars going to support these crimes. The U.S leadership was elected to take care of the American people and American interests above everything else not Israeli interests above American interests, they were elected to serve the American people not the Israeli people. Why should I an American citizen be despised for crime Israel committed?

 

[MontyB]

If other nations did have the things Israel does on daily basis that countries whole leadership would become a pariah, their may even be a warrant from the international court for their crimes against humanity and war crimes. I'm sick and tired of Israel being above the law and committing crimes with impunity and my tax dollars going to support these crimes. The U.S leadership was elected to take care of the American people and American interests above everything else not Israeli interests above American interests, they were elected to serve the American people not the Israeli people. Why should I an American citizen be despised for crime Israel committed?

But they effectively are pariahs, you just need to see the diplomatic fall out over the assassination of the Hamas leader in Dubai to see how little tolerance there is for Israeli leaders and assurances, the problem is that for as much as the western world dislikes these guys there are several important factors preventing action against Israel:

1) Is obviously US protection but this is going to become less and less of a factor as economic and military power moves toward the likes of China and India, but right now no one wants to take a regional issue to a world war.

2) For the most part we just don't care, if it doesn't directly affect us why worry.

3) Why would the west want to crush Israel because in the end the other guys in the region are not a hell of a lot better and while the Israelis and Palestinians are busily killing each other they are not trying to kill us.

As far as the US propping up Israel goes, that is a matter for the US people to determine and if you guys want to spend billions there instead of on your own infrastructure then good for you but until it becomes an internal political issue then the policy isn't going to change.

 

[mmarsh]

All innocent lives lost whether they be Israel or Palestinian are deplorable. But the fact remains that whenever IDF and Hamas go at it, the victims are Overwhelming Palestinian civilians.

Take the last round in Jan 2009.

1300 Palestinians had been killed, 300 of which were children. Only 300 Palestinean fighters were killed

vs. 13 Isrealis were killed. 3 Civilians, 10 military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War#Casualties

Yes the Israels lose people too but its an enormously one-sided affair. Thats why nobody buys the "poor Israel, we are the victims" excuse anymore.

 

[MontyB]

All innocent lives lost whether they be Israel or Palestinian are deplorable. But the fact remains that whenever IDF and Hamas go at it, the victims are Overwhelming Palestinian civilians.

Take the last round in Jan 2009.

1300 Palestinians had been killed, 300 of which were children. Only 300 Palestinean fighters were killed

vs. 13 Isrealis were killed. 3 Civilians, 10 military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War#Casualties

Yes the Israels lose people too but its an enormously one-sided affair. Thats why nobody buys the "poor Israel, we are the victims" excuse anymore.

Hey come on I am only trying to provide a counter argument and doing it somewhat half heartedly to indicate that there are two sides to a story and the truth is somewhere in between, if we had some of our usual members taking part in these discussions I could happily abandon this thread but right now I can't see a point in a thread where 10 people sit around agreeing with each other and going "boo Israel".

 

[Wallabies]

1300 civilians die because 300 Hamas fighters each require 4 human shields, the more women and children the better for them.

 

[senojekips]

1300 civilians die because 300 Hamas fighters each require 4 human shields, the more women and children the better for them.

Yeah,... and all the pigs are armed, fueled and ready to fly.

IDF Using Human Shields

There are plenty more where that came from.

 

[Wallabies]

They seemed to do that at their own free will.

 

[senojekips]

They seemed to do that at their own free will.

When you are ordered to do something by a couple of enemy soldiers who are armed, it's no longer free will is it?

More Of The Same

You forget Wallabies, that this is an old ollllddd subject and has already been shown to be true on this forum. It has also been published in the world press including Israeli papers. http://www.btselem.org/english/human_shields/20060720_human_shields_in_beit_hanun.asp

If you want to say something controversial, please at least make it something not so easily shown to be untrue. It was known to be official IDF policy prior to 2005 and although officially outlawed by the Israelis it has still been shown to be prevalent under the name "The Johnny Procedure"

IDF soldier: We used Gazans as human shields / Amos Harel

15/7/2009
The Israel Defense Forces used Palestinians as human shields during Operation Cast Lead last January despite a 2005 High Court ruling outlawing the practice, a Golani brigade soldier says.

Source: http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/press_item_e.asp?id=168

 

[ravager]

and all been asking ....... why would extremisme surge's growing despite all the aids n assist given ..... :mrgreen:

seriously mate .... the longer scenes are running .... the more jihadis would join the fields .... n trust me ..... ain't gonna be good for all of us around ....


afganistan ?? .... simply a testing ground for all jihadis ..... and they not even al qaeda associated ....




sorry for re ..... simply a matter of opinion from the under .....:twisted: