Waffen SS (Moved from the mottos forum)

[JoePeiper]

i don't like the SS...

but it is an alright motto, pitty they took it a little to literally...

Interesting. Politics aside, I believe the Waffen SS was a superior fighting force, especially during that time period. They were in superior athletic shape, and fiercely loyal to their superiors. I know some say they were "fanatical", but to me, that just shows they were extremely dedicated, and extremely loyal!.......Hence, "Meine Ehre Heisst Treue"!

I don't see anything wrong with their motto. I actually think those are exceptional words to live by, no matter who you are, or what army/organization you belong to.
But, that's just my humble opinion.

 

[Chukpike]

Interesting. Politics aside, I believe the Waffen SS was a superior fighting force, especially during that time period. They were in superior athletic shape, and fiercely loyal to their superiors. I know some say they were "fanatical", but to me, that just shows they were extremely dedicated, and extremely loyal!.......Hence, "Meine Ehre Heisst Treue"!

I don't see anything wrong with their motto. I actually think those are exceptional words to live by, no matter who you are, or what army/organization you belong to.
But, that's just my humble opinion.

If you consider soldiers who spent time murdering unarmed prisoners as a superior fighting force, then whatever floats your boat.

Also their loyalty was to Hitler and not the country. I guess if you are into fanatical dictators you could appreciate the motto.:lol:

I suspect you don't know much about them, and just think their uniforms are cool.

 

[MontyB]

If you consider soldiers who spent time murdering unarmed prisoners as a superior fighting force, then whatever floats your boat.

Do you have any sources to back the claim that they were were all (or even a majority) involved in murdering unarmed prisoners?

Also their loyalty was to Hitler and not the country. I guess if you are into fanatical dictators you could appreciate the motto.:lol:

This I agree with although the motto does not specifically state that they are loyal to anything in particular.

I suspect you don't know much about them, and just think their uniforms are cool.

I am not sure he is the only one in this category as there were multiple arms of the SS with the Waffen SS being little more than frontline soldiers and it is difficult to lump them in with either the Allgemeine SS or the SS-Totenkopfverbände (who ran the concentration camps).

 

[Chukpike]

Do you have any sources to back the claim that they were were all (or even a majority) involved in murdering unarmed prisoners?

First I don't need a source as I never claimed "they were were all (or even a majority) involved in murdering unarmed prisoners?"

Second: You asking for sources is close to the funniest thing I have ever heard.

But to humour you here is a source:

• The Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler under Obergruppenführer [11] Josef "Sepp" Dietrich.
• The Inspectorate of Verfügungstruppe under Brigadeführer Paul Hausser which commanded the Deutschland, Germania and Der Führer regiments, the last recruited in Austria after the Anschluss and not yet combat-ready.[12]
• The Inspectorate of Concentration Camps under Gruppenführer Theodor Eicke which fielded four infantry and one cavalry Death's-Head Standarten, comprising camp guards of the SS-Totenkopfverbände. These troops wore the SS-TV skull and crossbones rather than the SS-VT "SS" runes.
• Combat-trained non-SS units of Obergruppenführer und General der Polizei Kurt Daluege's Ordnungspolizei, which reported to Himmler in his capacity as Chief of German Police. These troops used police ranks and insignia rather than those of the SS.

These formations would become the basis of the Waffen-SS.

.......

Because it was more mobile and better able to carry out large-scale operations, the SS Cavalry Brigade played a pivotal role in the transition from "selective mass murder" to the wholesale extermination of the Jewish population.[36] On 27 July, the Brigade was ordered into action, and by 1 August the SS Cavalry Regiment was responsible for the death of 800 people; five days later, on 6 August, this total had reached 3,000 "Jews and Partisans".[37] On 1 August, after a meeting between Heinrich Himmler, Erich von Bach-Zelewski and Hinrich Lohse, the brigades received the following order:

Explicit order by RFSS: All Jews must be shot. Drive the female Jews into the swamps.[38]
​

Gustav Lombard, on receiving the order, advised his Battalion that "In future not one male Jew is to remain alive, not one family in the villages."[38] Throughout the next weeks, soldiers of SS Cavalry Regiment 1 under Lombard's command murdered an estimated 11,000 Jews and more than 400 dispersed soldiers of the Red Army.[39]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#World_War_II

If you want to paint the Waffen SS as a bunch of noble choir boys that is your problem.

And the next time I ask you for a source please honor the request.:-D

This I agree with although the motto does not specifically state that they are loyal to anything in particular.



I am not sure he is the only one in this category as there were multiple arms of the SS with the Waffen SS being little more than frontline soldiers and it is difficult to lump them in with either the Allgemeine SS or the SS-Totenkopfverbände (who ran the concentration camps).

And I did not, as the Waffen SS included all the SS. :-?

 

[MontyB]

And I did not, as the Waffen SS included all the SS. :-?

This is incorrect, the Waffen SS were the military branch of the SS only, my understanding is that the SS was reorganised into the 3 separate branches in 1935-36 but in 1939 Hitler merged the Totenkopfverbände and Allgemeine.

Had you been talking about the overall Schutzstaffel you possibly would have been correct as they all had the same motto but as you specifically stated Waffen SS I think it safe to say that you have it backwards, the SS included the Waffen SS not the other way around.

Here is the organisational chart for the SS, the Waffen SS is the box at the very bottom right labelled SS-Verfügungstruppe.

Concentration camp guards and "special units" are in the box next to them marked SS-Totenkopfverbände.

The "General SS" which was mainly administrative, part time and Reserve, honorary or otherwise non-active SS members is the box at the bottom on the left labelled Allgemeine SS.

 

[Chukpike]

This is incorrect, the Waffen SS were the military branch of the SS only, my understanding is that the SS was reorganised into the 3 separate branches in 1935-36 but in 1939 Hitler merged the Totenkopfverbände and Allgemeine.

Had you been talking about the overall Schutzstaffel you possibly would have been correct as they all had the same motto but as you specifically stated Waffen SS I think it safe to say that you have it backwards, the SS included the Waffen SS not the other way around.

Here is the organisational chart for the SS, the Waffen SS is the box at the very bottom right labelled SS-Verfügungstruppe.

Concentration camp guards and "special units" are in the box next to them marked SS-Totenkopfverbände.

The "General SS" which was mainly administrative, part time and Reserve, honorary or otherwise non-active SS members is the box at the bottom on the left labelled Allgemeine SS.

Don't care what "your understanding" is, please supply verifiable sources other than German cartoons, as I did. Also, the cartoons supplied do not show the complete command structure up to Hitler or when these diagrams were made.

After all, you did not except my understanding.:wink:

 

[MontyB]

Don't care what "your understanding" is, please supply verifiable sources other than German cartoons, as I did. Also, the cartoons supplied do not show the complete command structure up to Hitler or when these diagrams were made.

After all, you did not except my understanding.:wink:

Well you want a complete structure, ok that isn't a problem.

See right at the top of the page a box marked "Der Reichfurher SS"?

Put one more box above it that says "Der Furher"

All done.

Any other questions?

As far as my "understanding" goes the only thing I am not sure of is whether the formation was 1935 or 1936 as orders to do this were given in 1935 but were not completed until 1936.

 

[Chukpike]

Well you want a complete structure, ok that isn't a problem.

See right at the top of the page a box marked "Der Reichfurher SS"?

Put one more box above it that says "Der Furher"

All done.

Any other questions?

As far as my "understanding" goes the only thing I am not sure of is whether the formation was 1935 or 1936 as orders to do this were given in 1935 but were not completed until 1936.

I take it you do not intend to supply sources. As I expected.
See post #6:

"Second: You asking for sources is close to the funniest thing I have ever heard." quote chukpike :lol:
Since you refuse to supply any when requested.

No sources, no credibility.
I guess your understanding ignores the facts;


"Many Waffen-SS members and units were responsible for war crimes. For members who did not take part in them, they had to face the fact there was a "guilt by association" that attached. After the war the Schutzstaffel organisation as a whole was held to be a criminal organization by the post-war German government, due to the undeniable evidence that it was responsible for serious war crimes. Formations such as the Dirlewanger and Kaminski Brigades were singled out, and many others were involved in large-scale massacres or smaller-scale atrocities such as the Houtman affair.[125] In the West the most infamous incidents included the following:

• Wormhoudt massacre by SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, 1940, Belgium
• Le Paradis massacre by SS Totenkopf, 1940, France
• Oradour-sur-Glane massacre by SS Das Reich, 1944, France
• Tulle massacre by SS Das Reich, 1944, France
• Marzabotto massacre by SS Reichsführer-SS, 1944, Italy
• Malmedy massacre by Kampfgruppe Peiper part of 1st SS Panzer Division, 1944, Belgium
• Ardeatine massacre by two SS Officers, 1944, Italy
• Distomo massacre by 4th SS Polizei Panzergrenadier Division, 1944, Greece
• Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre by SS Reichsführer-SS, 1944, Italy
• Ardenne Abbey massacre 12th SS Panzer Division, 1944, France"

 

[Doppleganger]

I think Monty's trying to illustrate the point that the Waffen SS in general could be separated from the Security SS by way of their role and duties. The Waffen SS were the unofficial fourth arm of the Wehrmacht and were organised into the Heer OOB. For the most part they were clearly distinct from the Security SS and there isn't a Waffen SS formation in existence that wasn't ultimately commanded by a Heer commander.

The Waffen SS were no innocent, honorable soldiers, although on many occasions they fought with honour and almost always with bravery. They committed attrocites but then so did the regular Heer, so did the Red Army, the Polish Army, the French Army, the British Army, the American Army, the Japanese Army. There isn't an army in any major conflict that doesn't have an element of atrocities attached to it. That happens to be the very sad nature of war.

Of course some units of the Waffen SS had their origins in the more political units of the SS. That's unavoidable if you ask me, seeing as the organisation started out as a purely political organ. That doesn't mean to say that later on a distinct line couldn't be drawn between their duties and those SS formations that undertook camp security and rear echelon duties. There are many instances of Waffen SS units distinguishing themselves in combat. Like II SS Panzer Korps at Kharkov and Kursk.

 

[Chukpike]

I think Monty's trying to illustrate the point that the Waffen SS in general could be separated from the Security SS by way of their role and duties. The Waffen SS were the unofficial fourth arm of the Wehrmacht and were organised into the Heer OOB. For the most part they were clearly distinct from the Security SS and there isn't a Waffen SS formation in existence that wasn't ultimately commanded by a Heer commander.

The Waffen SS were no innocent, honorable soldiers, although on many occasions they fought with honour and almost always with bravery. They committed attrocites but then so did the regular Heer, so did the Red Army, the Polish Army, the French Army, the British Army, the American Army, the Japanese Army. There isn't an army in any major conflict that doesn't have an element of atrocities attached to it. That happens to be the very sad nature of war.

Of course some units of the Waffen SS had their origins in the more political units of the SS. That's unavoidable if you ask me, seeing as the organisation started out as a purely political organ. That doesn't mean to say that later on a distinct line couldn't be drawn between their duties and those SS formations that undertook camp security and rear echelon duties. There are many instances of Waffen SS units distinguishing themselves in combat. Like II SS Panzer Korps at Kharkov and Kursk.

Monty is in denial, he went all Storm Trooper on me when I first mentioned the Waffen SS were not choir boys:

"If you consider soldiers who spent time murdering unarmed prisoners as a superior fighting force, then whatever floats your boat."

From the above statement he demanded I supply sources to prove that:

"Do you have any sources to back the claim that they were were all (or even a majority) involved in murdering unarmed prisoners?" quote MontyB

Something I never said.

It is still my opinion they were sleaze bags and by the end of the war 1/3 were not German. They were not loyal to Germany they swore their Loyalty to a fanatic.

You are delusional if you think the Brittish, French, and US troops ever committed any attrocities to compare with the Nazis.

Don't you think the, "it is OK because everyone was doing it", excuse is kind of lame, besides being untrue.

 

[Doppleganger]

You are delusional if you think the Brittish, French, and US troops ever committed any attrocities to compare with the Nazis.

Thanks for calling me delusional. What I wrote was that the Waffen SS (not the Nazis) were not alone when committing atrocities in war. That's quite a big difference.

Don't you think the, "it is OK because everyone was doing it", excuse is kind of lame, besides being untrue.

I never excused it, I wrote that all armies did it. And all armies in major conflicts do commit atrocities. Show me a major combatant in WW2 that did not.

 

[Chukpike]

Thanks for calling me delusional. What I wrote was that the Waffen SS (not the Nazis) were not alone when committing atrocities in war. That's quite a big difference.


I never excused it, I wrote that all armies did it. And all armies in major conflicts do commit atrocities. Show me a major combatant in WW2 that did not.

You have it back wards. You claim that "all armies in major conflicts do commit atrocities." You need to prove it.

Here is the proof they did not commit atrocities:




See, no atrocities.

 

[Doppleganger]

You have it back wards. You claim that "all armies in major conflicts do commit atrocities." You need to prove it.

Do I? Personally, I don't need to prove anything. There is a wealth of documented evidence out there and you'll find that the vast majority of military experts and historians accept that it occurs.

 

[Chukpike]

Do I? Personally, I don't need to prove anything. There is a wealth of documented evidence out there and you'll find that the vast majority of military experts and historians accept that it occurs.

You made the claim and since you were unable to find any of the "wealth of documented evidence" your statement is with out merit.

 

[A Can of Man]

Here, let me help you out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II
10 second search on google.
Quite easy for something that never happened supposedly.

 

[Chukpike]

Here, let me help you out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II
10 second search on google.
Quite easy for something that never happened supposedly.

Apparently you did not read much of your source.
Where are the atrocities? No trials, hear say, like some guy's opinion that Churchill be tried for the bombing of Dresden?

Don't think that quite makes the cut.

It is good to see someone at least try and supply some type of source, no matter how poor.

Does not quite meet Dopplegangers statement:

"vast majority of military experts and historians"
now does it?
Doppleganger see how easy it is to find even a poor source. Try it sometime.

 

[A Can of Man]

So if there is no trial it never happened?
Funny reality you live in.

 

[Doppleganger]

You made the claim and since you were unable to find any of the "wealth of documented evidence" your statement is with out merit.

Fine, it's without merit then.

 

[MontyB]

Apparently you did not read much of your source.
Where are the atrocities? No trials, hear say, like some guy's opinion that Churchill be tried for the bombing of Dresden?

Don't think that quite makes the cut.

It is good to see someone at least try and supply some type of source, no matter how poor.

Does not quite meet Dopplegangers statement:

"vast majority of military experts and historians"
now does it?
Doppleganger see how easy it is to find even a poor source. Try it sometime.

Oh come on, its time to grow up and stop with the "but he started it" nonsense, this argument blew up pure and simply from you comment stating...

If you consider soldiers who spent time murdering unarmed prisoners as a superior fighting force, then whatever floats your boat.

Which was then followed by post after post showing a complete lack of understanding of SS structure and not one single source to back up the initial statement, eventually we got a list of about a dozen atrocities that were committed by Waffen SS units yet you seemingly wish to ignore the fact that those dozen or so atrocities were committed by a branch that consisted of roughly 39 divisions so you are painting with a very big brush.

As far as Allied atrocities go Doppleganger is correct they are well documented and should you ever have the desire to learn something I would thoroughly recommend that you do some research for yourself (I will make it easy for you, type "Allied Atrocities WW2 into Google, I bet you will get at least one response) rather than persistently requiring everyone to validate every step of their argument to your satisfaction while offer nothing of your own.

 

[Chukpike]

Oh come on, its time to grow up and stop with the "but he started it" nonsense, this argument blew up pure and simply from you comment stating...



Which was then followed by post after post showing a complete lack of understanding of SS structure and not one single source to back up the initial statement, eventually we got a list of about a dozen atrocities that were committed by Waffen SS units yet you seemingly wish to ignore the fact that those dozen or so atrocities were committed by a branch that consisted of roughly 39 divisions so you are painting with a very big brush.

And from you we got no source at all, just a cartoon.

As far as Allied atrocities go Doppleganger is correct they are well documented and should you ever have the desire to learn something I would thoroughly recommend that you do some research for yourself (I will make it easy for you, type "Allied Atrocities WW2 into Google, I bet you will get at least one response) rather than persistently requiring everyone to validate every step of their argument to your satisfaction while offer nothing of your own.

You and Doppleganger keep telling about all these allied atrocities and how easy they are to find. So why can't you find them?

You'll make it easy for me? I can find and supply sources, where are yours?

I never said the allies committed atrocities so why should I have to try and look up something. Doppleganger claimed they occurred, where are they?

Can O Spam gives us his source for allied atrocities.

First problem is the tittle: Allied war crimes during World War II
Oops, he was supposed to find atrocities.

Then in the body of his source we have this for a French atrocity?

"The Maquis are known to have executed 17 German prisoners of war at Saint-Julien-de-Crempse (in the Dordogne region), 14 of whom have been positively identified, on 10 September 1944. The murders were revenge killings for German murders of 17 local inhabitants of the village of St. Julien on 3 August 1944, which were themselves reprisal killings in response to Resistance activity in the St. Julien region, which was home to an active Maquis cell.[4]"

His source does not label it an atrocity, it refers to it as a revenge killing.
And this was done by civilians and not sanctioned by any French government.

You can love the Waffen SS as much as you want, but to paint them as something noble is ignorant. Their motto written by no less a pillar than Himmler himself:
"Meine Ehre heißt Treue"

"Literary it means "My honour is called loyalty" but the meaning is closer "My honour is loyalty"

Motto/saying comes from Hitler's letter to SS kommendant Kurt Daluegelle in 1931. There was sentence-ending "...SS-man, your loyalty is your honour" and Heinrich Himmler took that sentence from letter and came up with that motto.

btw; that motto is forbidden and punishable by law in Germany and Austria even today." quote Torkku

You like them because you think their uniforms are spiffy?

BTW They lost. Yeah that is right they got their a** kicked.

At least Doppleganger all ready admited his claims were with out merit.
I will just side with the German and Austrian people and accept what they think of them.