Victims of the Nazi's Genocide total viewpoint?

[JOC]

I have watched numerous documentaries on the European Theaters (you could just as easily call it Hitler’s war). I’m in no way biased. I wonder why they often passingly mention the Nazi viewpoint on the Slavs and other non Aryans peoples and focus on the ~ 6 million Jewish people who were murdered. The Jewish people were single out like no other group for death. But without taking way from the Jewish suffering, incredible amounts of Slavs were killed. In the USSR the real figure may never be known. It certainly was at least 15 million, likely considerable higher. Nearly 2000 towns and villages were but to the torch usually with all the people locked inside of large barns or other large building. The SS waited outside with machine guns in case someone got out. They filled pits and it wasn’t always Jews who were marched into the pits and shot. Millions had all their food appropriated for the Reich, leaving them to stave in the Russian winter. It’s estimated as many as 11 - 12 million Soviet citizens were murdered outsight. In Poland at least 3 million non-Jewish people were killed used as slaves murdered, starved, etc. In many countries such as Greece hundreds of thousands died simple because the Nazis appropriated their food leaving them to starve. Nearly every occupied country in Europe was forced to supply slaves to work in the Greater Reich. The survival rate for the forced labor force was very low. Even the western occupied nations i.e. Italy and France suffered atrocities, mass executions, etc. In total of those killed “directly or indirectly” may never be known, but it may easily approach 25 million. This does not include those killed in deliberately by shelling and bombing.
Your thought? I’m a red blooded American ex veteran. But is it because the majority of the non Jewish atrocities occurred in central and particularly eastern Europe the makers of American documentaries tend to overlook this. In other words they don’t relate to the experience the GI’s in WW2?

 

[MontyB]

Truthfully I think it is because the west in particular has chosen to let the holocaust be a solely Jewish thing and the reason for that are based in the events of 1945-1948 in particular.

Essentially like most propaganda it is a half truth used to justify unpalatable actions hence most of the Wests understanding of the holocaust stops with the death of 6 million of Europe's Jews and completely ignore the millions of other minorities that were wiped out by Hitler and his henchmen.

I have long believed that if we are to remember Hitlers regime then we must remember it in its entirety not just the portions we are continually sold, I also think it worth remembering that Hitler struggles to make the top 5 mass murderers of the 20th Century he had some major competition with Mao and Stalin.

 

[JOC]

Interesting

Truthfully I think it is because the west in particular has chosen to let the holocaust be a solely Jewish thing and the reason for that are based in the events of 1945-1948 in particular.

Essentially like most propaganda it is a half truth used to justify unpalatable actions hence most of the Wests understanding of the holocaust stops with the death of 6 million of Europe's Jews and completely ignore the millions of other minorities that were wiped out by Hitler and his henchmen.

I have long believed that if we are to remember Hitlers regime then we must remember it in its entirety not just the portions we are continually sold, I also think it worth remembering that Hitler struggles to make the top 5 mass murderers of the 20th Century he had some major competition with Mao and Stalin.

I have read and researched that Stalin and Mao regimes may have resulted in more overall deaths but fewer direct murders than Hitler. In other words a great deal of the deaths attributed to Stalin resulted from long term famines such as occurred in the Ukraine and the forced resettlement of ethnic groups, of course he murdered millions directly as well.
In Mao’s case 10’s of million perished in the great leap forward in which he tried to force the country to industrialize at the expense of the peasants. Of course his 30 year regimen murdered from its conception to his death. The exact number of deaths attributed to both these dictators varies from 20 to > 40 million. Surprisingly if given ~ 100 years the Mongols rank very high. We may never be absolutely certain who was responsible for the most murders since the communist were not extremely forth right about the records keep.
As for a murder machine 99.9 % of Hitler’s murders occurred in less than 5 years. Had they been victorious it gives me shivers. An interesting note is they continued to murder Jews, Soviets prisoners, etc right up until the end of the war.

 

[MontyB]

But in some respects isn't it playing with semantics to say that Stalin and Mao killed no one "personally" as they must have know the likely results of their actions were going to lead to countless deaths, if we were to accept that then I think it is fair to say Hitler, Goering, Himmler etc. killed no one "personally".

I can not say that any of them were more or less responsible than the others as Hitler knew what the Concentration Camps were doing, Stalin and Mao knew the what was going to happen with their purges and man made famines and none of them gave a rats arse about what they had done.

I would also argue that Hitler's killing lasted longer than 5 years I would suggest that it lasted the full 12 years that the 3rd Reich existed after all the first Concentration Camp was built in 1933, it was only in the last few years of the war that the Germans began killing on an industrial scale.

Oh and lets not forget every ones favourite Pol Pot, he got his numbers up there in a few short years.

 

[George]

Not to mention Japanese atrocities, especially in China.

 

[MontyB]

There are also a number of people that hold Churchill responsible for the Bengal famine of 1943 which killed between 1.5 and 4 million because he refused to release shipping and provide food.

 

[JOC]

5 vs 12

But in some respects isn't it playing with semantics to say that Stalin and Mao killed no one "personally" as they must have know the likely results of their actions were going to lead to countless deaths, if we were to accept that then I think it is fair to say Hitler, Goering, Himmler etc. killed no one "personally".

I can not say that any of them were more or less responsible than the others as Hitler knew what the Concentration Camps were doing, Stalin and Mao knew the what was going to happen with their purges and man made famines and none of them gave a rats arse about what they had done.

I would also argue that Hitler's killing lasted longer than 5 years I would suggest that it lasted the full 12 years that the 3rd Reich existed after all the first Concentration Camp was built in 1933, it was only in the last few years of the war that the Germans began killing on an industrial scale.

Oh and lets not forget every ones favourite Pol Pot, he got his numbers up there in a few short years.

The 1st camp Dachau was made for so called enemies of the state and was constructed in 1933 I believe. And certainly Jews, politic enemies, and some physically - mentally impaired were killed prior to late 1939, perhaps in the 10’s of 1000’s. It wasn't until they became entrenched in Poland the killing started on a large scale. The killing really took with the invasion of the USSR.

 

[JOC]

Good Point

But in some respects isn't it playing with semantics to say that Stalin and Mao killed no one "personally" as they must have know the likely results of their actions were going to lead to countless deaths, if we were to accept that then I think it is fair to say Hitler, Goering, Himmler etc. killed no one "personally".

I can not say that any of them were more or less responsible than the others as Hitler knew what the Concentration Camps were doing, Stalin and Mao knew the what was going to happen with their purges and man made famines and none of them gave a rats arse about what they had done.

I would also argue that Hitler's killing lasted longer than 5 years I would suggest that it lasted the full 12 years that the 3rd Reich existed after all the first Concentration Camp was built in 1933, it was only in the last few years of the war that the Germans began killing on an industrial scale.

Oh and lets not forget every ones favourite Pol Pot, he got his numbers up there in a few short years.

Point well taken: If you initiate a policy that results in millions of deaths by manufactured famine or forced relocation or are in charge of people who kill someone directly i.e.; shooting, hanging, gassing, or burning to death in the end the Dictator and his cronies are still guilty of taking those lives either way.

 

[dadsgirl]

Don't forget Pol Pot. Every country has their own Hitler. Look what we did to the Native Americans and the African American!

 

[JOC]

The Nazis are unique in history in that they murdered perhaps 25 million in ~ 5 years. Yes they killed some prior to the invasion of Poland in the 10 of thousands. Nobody has mass produced murder on the same scale as did the Nazis. Others Stalin, Mao, the Mongols, in the Congo Free state had very high numbers over much longer periods of time. That is murdered, engineered starvation, forced relocation just like the Nazi's just not so fast and methodical.
The bulk of the Nazi's victims lived in the east and were not Jewish and the Soviets would not admit to the full extend of the catastrophe that occurred in the occupied USSR. This is why many stats on Nazi induced deaths are often shown to be lower. The USSR lost perhaps as many as 18 to 20 million civilians, the vast majority of which died at the hands of the Nazis who considered them "using their ridiculous racial theory's" subhuman Slavs. Who BTW had just as many blond hared blue eyed people as did Germany.
Such tendencies arise in many cultures but are not unleashed and accepted to the same degree. Lessons can be learned from the Nazi's. After all with Soviet casualties updated the man brought about close to 60 million deaths.

 

[Army0413]

I have watched numerous documentaries on the European Theaters (you could just as easily call it Hitler’s war). I’m in no way biased. I wonder why they often passingly mention the Nazi viewpoint on the Slavs and other non Aryans peoples and focus on the ~ 6 million Jewish people who were murdered. The Jewish people were single out like no other group for death. But without taking way from the Jewish suffering, incredible amounts of Slavs were killed. In the USSR the real figure may never be known.

Better that than we whites get murded so often.

 

[MontyB]

Better that than we whites get murded so often.

I would suggest that being the criteria for being murdered is not restricted to colour.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

What differentiates Hitler's regime from the other mass murders is the industrial scale of the killings which occurred during the war. Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot killed not after ethnic lines rather after no lines at all, which makes things complicated to study. A genocide is much easier to see if the offender and the victims are separated ethnically, religiously, but not so easily when the genocide occurs politically.

However, the amount of victims is quite irrelevant, what is leading up to the decision to commit atrocities is for me more interesting and there is a lesson we can learn from it, if we want to. Why I am saying the body count is irrelevant is the same mind grasping of numbers, similar as how we measure distances in the universe or the time when it comes to events in our planet's past. The numbers are too great to comprehend for most people. Most people cannot picture 15 million dead, nor one million, the majority can picture perhaps 15 000. Nonetheless, the structures in the society which can allow things like that to happen is interesting. A genocide doesn't not occur from nowhere, there are steps prior the genocide we can decide if we ant to see them or not. Rwanda is pretty good example of this when we decided to ignore the signs. Of course there is another question in that; who shall take the responsibility to act when atrocities occur?

 

[JOC]

I would suggest that being the criteria for being murdered is not restricted to colour.

The Congo Free State 1885 to 1908 was anything but free. A private colony of Belgium's King Leopold the 2nd. Upwards to 10 million blacks died at the hands of his money hungry enterprises. Blacks that failed to meet plantation quotas were executed or mutilated.
Things improved a bit when in 1908 the Congo was transferred to direct Belgium control. However the infrastructure remained intact so abuses continued until 1960.
In 1960 the Congo gained independence and has experience corruption and internal and external wars since then. Whole scale murder and rape even cannibalism still erupts in the Congo. The average family lives at an subsistence level in a mineral rich nation.

whole scale murders and atrocities aren't limited to whites.

 

[JOC]

What differentiates Hitler's regime from the other mass murders is the industrial scale of the killings which occurred during the war. Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot killed not after ethnic lines rather after no lines at all, which makes things complicated to study. A genocide is much easier to see if the offender and the victims are separated ethnically, religiously, but not so easily when the genocide occurs politically.

However, the amount of victims is quite irrelevant, what is leading up to the decision to commit atrocities is for me more interesting and there is a lesson we can learn from it, if we want to. Why I am saying the body count is irrelevant is the same mind grasping of numbers, similar as how we measure distances in the universe or the time when it comes to events in our planet's past. The numbers are too great to comprehend for most people. Most people cannot picture 15 million dead, nor one million, the majority can picture perhaps 15 000. Nonetheless, the structures in the society which can allow things like that to happen is interesting. A genocide doesn't not occur from nowhere, there are steps prior the genocide we can decide if we ant to see them or not. Rwanda is pretty good example of this when we decided to ignore the signs. Of course there is another question in that; who shall take the responsibility to act when atrocities occur?

To repeat myself. Statistics cannot tell the human side of the story. A slave laborer being brutally worked to death. A Jewish Child be murdered, Russians pheasants being herded into barns which are then set ablaze. The numbers do help to show the enormity of the crimes.

If one looks at a packed football stadium one of the bigger ones you could get an idea of the scope of say 80 thousand people. That would be only ~ 0.4% of the people killed as a result of the Nazi's. I agree we should learn from these past atrocities inn order to help prevent them in the future.

There are even small scale genocides going on even presently such as the Assyrian Christians in Iraq and certain tribes in the Sudan.

 

[Kesse81]

The most deep-seated of all instincts in all mobile organisms is the will to survive. Threats to survival are acted upon with the highest priority. Tribalism to the point of war is normal (instinctive) in the human. Genocide, the driving off or killing off of a particular racial or ethnic group is normal (instinctive) in the human. Genocide started millions of years ago when tribes raided each other's camps. Tribalism is a basic instinct in the human species, one that was developed over a period of 4 million years or longer. A different language, appearance, apparel, behavior, etc. is instinctively a danger sign. Ethnic differences become tools to inflame the public and obtain their cooperation.

 

[lljadw]

The Congo Free State 1885 to 1908 was anything but free. A private colony of Belgium's King Leopold the 2nd. Upwards to 10 million blacks died at the hands of his money hungry enterprises.

The number of 10 million is British/ US propaganda

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

To repeat myself. Statistics cannot tell the human side of the story. A slave laborer being brutally worked to death. A Jewish Child be murdered, Russians pheasants being herded into barns which are then set ablaze. The numbers do help to show the enormity of the crimes.

If one looks at a packed football stadium one of the bigger ones you could get an idea of the scope of say 80 thousand people. That would be only ~ 0.4% of the people killed as a result of the Nazi's. I agree we should learn from these past atrocities inn order to help prevent them in the future.

There are even small scale genocides going on even presently such as the Assyrian Christians in Iraq and certain tribes in the Sudan.

The individuals committing the atrocities shall be punished for what they did. If we talk about what the Nazis did. The individuals responsible for different crimes and in these cases we shall discuss details and the amount of killings they were responsible for. Then we have others, the administrator, the clerks in different levels. They never participated in the killings but they didn't do anything to stop it either. Suddenly we need to fear those who follows the law. One way around this problem is to find high ranked people within different departments and agencies. They used this approach during the Nuremberg Trials. However, with this approach many Nazis were never punished for what they did.